Hollywood_North GT

I would largely agree with you on all of that.

I believe GM is planning a V6 version of the Camaro, though, aren't they?

I don't think the high performance wars will cease for a while, either. One only has to look at what the Europeans and Japanese are doing. If they were running away from performance vehicles right now, then I would view that as a litmus test worth noting - but so far they aren't. Long term, however (more than a decade), I suspect that environmental impact issues will be front and center world-wide, and manufacturers will be gravitating towards either smaller fuel-sipping vehicles almost exclusively, or adopting new technologies on a more widespread level to extract power, economy and low emissions in a more efficient and harmonious equation.

One final note: Ford's situation is currently a lot more perilous than GMs. So if Camaro were to fumble, GM doesn't have to scrap a platform and engine that was specifically designed for it. On the other hand, I do agree that Ford has probably alreay amortized its expenses on the current Mustang platform.

Boomer

Whether it sells is another story
If the V6 base Camaro is a flop...kiss it goodbye.

Really if GM caters to ONLY the gearheads alone, the car will not be a success, and I'm sure they know that.

Settlemire even mentioned in a post that there will probably be things that tick people off on the car when it comes out... because its not aimed at them, but the mainstream. (Much like the mustang...)

But the mustang proves we can hit ALL the bases (or a majority of them)
and really... GM just has to copy the formula ford has with the stang...
Wash, rinse, repeat...

If they get blinded by the 'we don't lose horsepower wars' but it outprices the competition... it'll get left behind...

68 fastback

I'm still not sure GM isn't talking V6 but planning an LS1-or-2-only first year offering. I certainly could be wrong, but GM's deafening silence on the V6 Camaro, HTT's public cajoling toward GM to do a V6, and DCX's affirmation that they are only doing a V8 Challenger suggests this is not a done deal. I think HTT wants GM to do a V6 Camaro because it's price points will limit how much sophistication and expense they can bake into the chassis, i.e. even an N-minus-1-level 'vette chassis would be undoable, IMO, below $40-45K out 2 years. But, who kows?

It would be just like GM, who typically fancies themselves smarter than they really are, IMO, to feign right and go left on this. I think that's why, as Ford develops the H/Boss and the '09 mustang refresh they are also not burning their bridges on a 400-ish HP hi-po NA DOHC mod motor to fend off the possibility of an LS2-only first offering and as a fall-back if the plan slips a year (to it's stated schedule? <lol>)

Of course, GM could start with an LS1/2-only offering to get out there earlier (since that's the critical design point anyway) and then offer a V6 the second year, i.e. let the 'muscle' generate the 'buzz' and then serve up the 'everyman' low-price version the following cycle if the buzz is sufficient. Such a strategy (if true) would seem both viable and highly levered on essentially parts-bin parts (as BCShelby pointed out). I don't think it's far-fetched that the world will just yawn at the V6 Camaro unless it's the 3.6L six-spd auto and 5-spd manual right out of the chute on day-one concurrent with an LS offering (the assumed plan).

I think HTT is planning for just such a possibility (hi-po only first) by keeping both the mustang refresh date and the '09 Boss base (engine and chassis/mods) somewhat intentionally shrouded in fog. I think that's why at SEMA they used only 2/3 of the space they used in previous years (and this year all three domestics were featured -- first time ever!) and, except for the GT500 and it's anniversary and racer variations and the JDRF charity car, none of the other Ford show cars were actual Ford offerings -- including the Galpin 'Boss 302.' That sure seemd suspicious to me.

There weren't even any Ford 'principles' to talk to (except the FRPP guys and few Shelby folk) -- all the 'Ford reps' seemed like hired-for-the-show 'scripted' bodies. Dan Davis was supposedly "in the house" (he typically is as SEMA) but I never saw his face once (and I looked all over for him). The Carroll Shelby "signing" event seemed the Ford highlight of the 3-days and while that was a real kick, it's very odd for Ford to have such an eerily low profile at SEMA. Except for the new Boss crate, there wasn't even a crate engine section (which had been boldly featured at recent SEMAs). And I don't think it's an expense issue either, because the additional space Ford typically uses seemed hastily converted into an impromptu stage that SEMA used for occasional interviews an such -- set up like it was a afterthought an hour before the opening ...it stuck out like a sore thumb. That suggests to me that Ford made a decision to pull a bunch of stuff at the last minute -- what I don't know. ...hmmmm.

Anyhow, just wanted to share some thoughts and pieces that I have not been able to piece together yet. I've been a corporate strategy type (not automotive) for 30 years -- semi-retired now -- so I've learned that these subtle little discontinuities often telegraph much more than all the public statements combined -- but that doesn't make it any easier to seam it all together ;-)

V10

Probably has a lot to do with Ford's current financial crisis. I'd bet a lot of Ford people were afraid to take the trip to SEMA for fear that their jobs would be gone when they get home.

Silence and a no show does not usually indicate big plans for the future.

Hollywood_North GT

The rumor is the Camaro will get a 3.6L Direct Injection DOHC V6.

I'm not so sure the Mustang GT will be seen as the Camaro's direct competition. Back in "the good old days," we didn't have the overwhelming number of import cars we have today - and many more are entering the performance market over the next couple of years.

Chevy may be positioning itself to offer a Camaro that gives significantly better performance per dollar than the import competitors (350Z, etc), but is still a bit more upscale than the Mustang.

Like the Mustang V6, the V6 Camaro will account for the bulk of sales, in all likelihood. UNLIKE the Mustang GT, I think the V8 Camaro can probably afford to price itself a little higher, provided it has "the stuff". Remember, the GT500 has proven that there are a great many enthusiasts willing to pay $55K to $60K US for a new Shelby. I therefore think it likely that there are plenty of enthusiasts willing to pay $36K for a 400HP Camaro riding on an IRS equipped Zeta platform. It will be far more car than a 350Z for the same money.

68 fastback

Agree, but if you have attended SEMA for years the blank space was obvious -- something changed very late in the planning. Also, I can't remember the last time Ford did not preview an actual new hi-po car at SEMA. It was quite odd -- especially since almost half the Ford space was filled with Volvos (wtf?) <lol> nice cars, but not appropriate in the Ford space at SEMA, of all places -- very unusual, and unprecidented.

And remember this was the first time in the history of SEMA that more than one manufacturer -- all three domestics -- were officially the featured manufacturer(s) of the year ... and Ford cuts back and leaves 1/3 of their space blank? No, this was last minute change -- some plan didn't gell or they decided to keep GM/DCX guessing or something...

I suspect we'll know what was intended for SEMA sometime next year on the show circuit -- we shall see.

.

68 fastback

Yeah, BC, I think you're right that there is some real price elasticity vis a vis your point on the GT500. The thing I find interesting is that the V6 is no longer the volume model of the mustang. Production for V6 is set at a minimum of 39%, the GT at a maximum of 51% and GT500 is set at 10% (paraphrase from AAI factory briefing from a couple months ago)

So, Ford is actually force-feeding the dealers V6s -- that they have to take to get GTs -- that they need to get a better share-of-nation on the GT500s (beyond base/formula allocations). So the GTs are actually doing the heavy-lifting on paying the bills now, to my understanding.

That's why I'm doubting that a V6 Camaro is a given from the outset. If it weren't for the CAFE nums, I not sure there would be much motivation to offer them when a stripped down GT version would not cost much more and most guys get 30-mpg commuting on the highway with the GT (and 23 with the GT500 if you resist the go pedal ;-)

Hollywood_North GT

My understanding is that it was the Bullitt that was intended for SEMA, but that it was pulled at the last minute so as not to compete directly with the fledgling Shelby GT.

68 fastback

That makes a lot of sense as it would sort of step right on the Shelby GT. Would not account for all the 'dead' space at SEMA, but that makes sense to me... good thinking, BC.

I was initially expecting to see the real-deal Boss (car), but I suspect Ford felt uncomfortable with what engine to show in it (kicked-up NA mod vs H/Boss that isn't ready), so went with the Galpin as the 'featured' Boss to complement introduction of the Boss crate(s). If the Boss(car) is still on for '09 (and I think it is) I guess there's time.

I think the Boss is a car Ford knows has to be introduced 'right' -- it's a high-expectation anniversary model that will have to jump right into the 400+HP Camaro fray and will be the first serious NA mustang since the '01 Cobra -- a painfull gap to many enthusiasts (including myself). Actually, aside from some carefully planed 'leaks' I'm sort of expecting Ford to now wait as late as enthusiast clamour will permit ;-) before a formal showing of some kind -- especially since Saleen and Galpin have served to test styling and oveall interest pretty effecively, I think.

However it goes down, we'll all be getting insight into HTT's approach to competitive/strategic gamesmanship -- since he's still a relatively unknown quantity in that regard -- a point I'm sure has not gone unnoticed by GM/DCX. And if HTT is smart (and I think he is) he'll use that to Ford's advantage, because it's a card you only get to play once (maybe twice if you're really good ;-) in your career. Quickly, your strategic 'personality' gets understood and renders competitive gamesmanship back to the traditional. < don't mind me, I'm just an old corporate strategist ;-) >

I wish there could have been a significant overlap between Coletti and HTT, but I think that was not in the cards by design.

John tended to go to the streetfight with a knife in his hand and a bazooka under his coat. I sense HTT's personality is to not show up until he knows he can win with his weapon of choice. Both approaches have fundamental strategic merit, but the latter takes more patience, both for the strategist and the customer -- an attribute in short supply these days. (ok, I'll shut up now -- for a while, anyway <lol>)

.

HOTLAP

I'd have to agree with you - the last generation F-body was a decent looking package and they had 300hp and a 6-speed mtx (well before our beloved Mustang). What killed them was the dated chasis, that GM just couldn't get any more out of - bumps in the floorpan, they couldn't even have true dual exhaust (there was just no room under the car) and another contributor (I believe) was GM's marketing strategy to focus mostly on hp enthuisiasts - not the V6 entry level buyers...like Ford did...back then Ford was selling (IIRC) 70% V6's and that's what kept the Mustang in Ford's line-up...not the V8's.....and then the fact that GM was hurting with too many "sister" models when the F-Body was killed and the Pony/Muscle Car market had been shrinking for some time - that's why GM ditched the Camaro/Firebird twins......now that Ford has made the Mustang exciting again and is starting to capitalize on the popularity of the Mustang with SE's, the ShelbyGT500 - the others (GM/Dodge) are simply jumping back on the bandwagon (much like they did back in 1967).

V10

The problem GM had was that the F body platform had such horrible ergonomics & quality that the V6 Camaro could not compete with other chick cars like the Eclipse, New Edge Cougar, Sebring, Solara, etc. etc. So GM had to give it lots of HP and focus on selling to loyal GM gearheads who would ovelook the F body's shortcomings as long as it was fast. But as you said, the Gear Head market is not big enough to assure the success of any car.

Hollywood_North GT

Precisely why I expect to see the forthcoming Camaro move upmarket somewhat...and, in the process, hopefully distance itself as much as possible from the mullet crowd.

bob

Naw, F-bods and mullets go together like peas and carrots

mjbarnet

Given that the new GT Shelbys (325HP) have a $1,000 GGT added to them, it would appear that the current engine is stuck at around 300HP in a "tax free" version.
So my question is, are the new Boss (Hurricane) engines supposed to get better mileage than the current 3Vs?

68 fastback

The Shelby GT gets the GGtax because they're putting in bigger gears.

The new H/Boss should be VERY efficient if it gets VVT/VCT/direct-injection etc. with the right tune. The we can all kick it up for ourselves

hiznherponies

+1!! Good thing the Camaro is headed upscale, most of the mullet-headed crowd now make enuf money to afford it!! And a 12 pack!!

bob

Dated maybe, but it was very effective, the F-bod was actually able to at one point turn in better lap times than the same year vette.