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Hey TMS friends, I wanted to get your opinions on an issue Ive been having.
Only happens when cold outside (under 50F) and for the first 10-15 minutes of driving. When I get the car out in the morning I have a hard time shifting out of gear, and shifting into the next one. When it does it almost grinds and feels really rough. Particularly 2nd and 3rd. Once the car is fully warmed up it returns to smooth shifting into any gear.
I found that if I double clutch all the problems go away when cold. So get it into 1st, clutch in, go to neutral, clutch out, clutch in, got to 2nd etc.
It started happening last fall, and i replaced the trans fluid with Red Line MT. Didn't make a difference.
What do you guys think? Clutch master cylinder? Clutch slave cylinder? Synchros? Air in the clutch line? Something else?
I doubt if its the synchros. The clue here is getting out of gear. Bet the brake fluid being cold with lazy slave cylinder. You will however damage synchros if you keep the crunch shifting. Double clutch only until the problem is fixed. You also didn't mention how many miles and your driving style. I use the redline for the last 20k miles with no issue. Fluid not the problem.
I dougt if its the synchros. The clue here is getting out of gear. Bet the brake fluid being cold with lazy slave cylinder. You will however damage synchros if you keep the crunch shifting. Double clutch only until the problem is fixed. You also didn't mention how many miles and your driving style. I use the redline for the last 20k miles with no issue. Fluid no the broblem.
Thanks dusman, that's a good point. I'm personally leaning towards slave cylinder myself too. Car has 32k miles on it, daily driven in a mid to spirited manned, and it has 15 track days on it over the last 5 years.
So what would be my solution here, new slave cylinder? If so I need to basically take the clutch out to do this, right? Might as well replace the clutch along the way I suppose ...
Oh and last year I blew a stainless steel bake hose at one of my track days. Most of the brake fluid leaked out while I was getting new hose. I wonder if I have some air in the slave cylinder. Is there a good way to bleed the clutch circuit?
The clutch is suppose to self bleed by pumping it like 100 or so more times. I have read that a vacuum pump is faster. Also if the brake fluid is dot 4 it should be changed yearly or sooner if the car is tracked. I still bet its the slave and or clutch. With the miles and track days it would not be unreasonable to have problems with a stock setup. I did read this on another forum that you could try.
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Okay I have confirmed that it is the slave cylinder.
For anyone having this issue in the future where your transmission is progressively getting more notchy:
Take your car onto a flat surface, start it and put it in first gear, keep the clutch completely pressed in to the floor and rev. You may have to rev it high (I took mine to 5krpms), but if at any point during the rev your car starts inching forward that means your clutch is not disengaging properly (which points to the slave cylinder).
I tend to agree with the notion of cold dirty fluid and a slave cylinder [ hydraulic throw out bearing ] not fully extending. Even though you don't really have all that many miles on your clutch it has seen harder use than a lot of cars get so it's not out of the question that the clutch may be nearing failure. On older cars with mechanical clutches as the disc wears [ gets thinner ] you lose free play at the pedal. and it needs to be adjusted unless the car is equipped with some form of automatic adjuster. It seems that a hydraulic throw out bearing should be less sensitive to wear, but at some point it may not have enough travel to fully disengage the clutch. I know if I ever have to pull the transmission to replace the throw out bearing I'll be replacing the clutch with something more performance oriented at the same time. I don't want to have to do the same job twice.
Thanks. The fluid in it now is 8 month old no-name DOT4. I'll get it flushed with Castrol SFR racing in 2 weeks when new brake hoses and rotors and rear calipers go in.
I'll try that revving trick while holding the clutch. The thing is I have 3 events planned and paid for between May 26th and mid June. If I change out the clutch and throwout bearing it will be after. May have to double clutch on every upshift/down shift till then. Hope better fluid helps enough.
I have not noticed any slipping of the clutch or smell. It still bites hard when I drop the clutch at 4000 rpm and on downshifts with no rev match (which I typically don't do).
So I think the bearing is the issue, not disengaging all the way. But I'll also upgrade to a Spec clutch when I do the bearing since the trans has to come out anyway.
So what would be my solution here, new slave cylinder? If so I need to basically take the clutch out to do this, right? Might as well replace the clutch along the way I suppose ... [/QUOTE]
I agree, I would not pull the transmission without replacing both the slave cylinder and the clutch. It is too big a job to have to do it again if something else goes out in the near future.
For anyone having this issue in the future where your transmission is progressively getting more notchy:
Take your car onto a flat surface, start it and put it in first gear, keep the clutch completely pressed in to the floor and rev. You may have to rev it high (I took mine to 5krpms), but if at any point during the rev your car starts inching forward that means your clutch is not disengaging properly (which points to the slave cylinder).
I tried the procedure above with the car still pretty cold, and cold brake fluid.
I tried a number of times, clutch in and hold it, first gear, and rev. Revved all the way to 6k a few different times while holding the clutch in and the car never moved at all. I even revved a few different times and held 4-5k rpm while the clutch was all the way in. Never got the car to move.
When I was done i'd let the clutch out and the car would start moving around 50% clutch travel, like it always does.
So does that mean my slave cylinder is fine? What else could it be? Perhaps this doesn't disprove the original hypothesis but now I'm more confused. I was expecting the car to move a little
It all sounds fluid-related to me.
I use a custom blend fluid from BND Automotive, part of their Quantum Blue line.
If you want something you can get quick, I recommend the BG fluid, I think they call it SynchroShift or something close to that.
Ford had a TSB about cold-shifting issues, they were having dealers change the trans fluid to fix it.
Or this is the stuff I use, but it takes 2-3 weeks to get it delivered, you have to buy a gallon (MT82 fluid-change is 2.7 qts), and it's about $16/qt. But it's awesome.
(yes, I put it in the wife's TR6060 also, it was an even bigger improvement in that car, instantly smoother shifts and lighter effort)
Last edited by Gabe; 4/29/18 at 01:49 PM.
Reason: Spellllling
Thanks for the links Gabe. I guess fluid in cheap and quick option I could try. I did just go with new flush of Redline stuff, and before that I had Royal Purple Synchromax which i had for 2 years before having issues.
The thing I can't figure out is if this was fluid, why would double clutching help?
Thanks for the links Gabe. I guess fluid in cheap and quick option I could try. I did just go with new flush of Redline stuff, and before that I had Royal Purple Synchromax which i had for 2 years before having issues.
The thing I can't figure out is if this was fluid, why would double clutching help?
Well, neither one of those is certified by Ford for use in the MT82, some people use a mix of 2 Amsoil fluids - I've used this mix for one thousand miles and hated it, I went back to the BND fluid. Found the Amsoil mix to be notchy and hard to shift when cold.
The people that love it are comparing it to the stock Ford fluid.
Well, of course it's an improvement, even Ford has an upgrade for that.
Burton on here (FromZto5 screen name) has switched his stock fluid for the new Ford spec and he's much happier (not that he really drives it in the cold anyway, lol).
Why the double-clutching is helping, well I'm thinking it has to do with the current fluid not providing the cushioning and viscosity needed for the synchros.
I'm hoping the use of the Royal Purple stuff didn't cause damage.
I hate Royal Purple stuff and if you call and speak with Brian at BND Automotive (the best way to order his fluids), he'll tell you all about how bad RP stuff actually is.
The dude is a chemist, he knows his stuff.
Reserve at least 30-40 minutes for that phone call, lol.
I've used his oil for over 7,000 miles on the same oil once, in my '07 Charger, and when I sent out a sample to be tested by Blackstone Labs, they said it was still good. I know people that regularly go over 10k on his oil.
Thanks for the links Gabe. I guess fluid in cheap and quick option I could try. I did just go with new flush of Redline stuff, and before that I had Royal Purple Synchromax which i had for 2 years before having issues.
The thing I can't figure out is if this was fluid, why would double clutching help?
Redline does not make a fluid that meets the current spec for the MT82. The fluid that you are using is thicker than what Ford recommends. I have been using the Redline MTL with good results, but it is thinner than what you are using and I don't drive it in cold weather.
Redline does make a getrag/ford approved manual fluid, as of about a year ago. DCTF...It works better for me by far better than the factory fill, or DCT+XL-18, or MTF, or BG'syncostuff.
4/26/18, 06:44 AM
