Shady Dealership, were they lying?
1/12/11, 11:52 AM
#21
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X-Plan is a fixed price with limits on other charges; the dealer makes a fixed profit straight from Ford that's why a dealer can choose to take X-Plan or not.
I don't follow the belief that all dealers are crooks but generally speaking it is very hard to beat an X-Plan price unless the dealer is near desperate to get rid of the car. The fact that a dealer tries to talk you out of using X-Plan in exchange for a near invoice price often means the dealer is squeezing money out of you somewhere else (not always, but often).
As far as your trade-in goes that's the nature of the beast -- the more profit a dealer makes the more wiggle room he'll have on a trade. If you really want to get fair market value for your truck you actually have to put it up on the market and sell it pivately.
1/12/11, 02:02 PM
#22
Relative to the offer on your trade in, when I was selling Volvo's excellent trade in value was typically about what I hoped to get out of a car when I sold it. seriously. NADA and KBB are both typically well off the mark when it comes to actual value of a vehicle retail or wholesale.....it's why we had the dealer black book in the first place.
Honestly, if what these folks are saying regarding the Mustang's price is accurate there is no way that I would have offered you the deal they did if the extra's you mentioned that were tacked onto the price of the Mustang were legit extra's (i.e., not dock fees or other fluff)...just being honest. I would figure that the trade in offer on your truck is about 2k too far in because my view, given what you say you expected, would be that the absolute best I could seriously hope to sell it for after going through your truck and addressing any potential small issues would be an outright break even if I didn't have to pay the salesman...which I obviously would. And that is with me assuming that there was literally nothing wrong with it and that all the fixes apply to making it look god...which a good salesman never assumes because there is almost always something 'wrong' that would make me take a hit on price if i didn't have it fixed.
Honestly, if what these folks are saying regarding the Mustang's price is accurate there is no way that I would have offered you the deal they did if the extra's you mentioned that were tacked onto the price of the Mustang were legit extra's (i.e., not dock fees or other fluff)...just being honest. I would figure that the trade in offer on your truck is about 2k too far in because my view, given what you say you expected, would be that the absolute best I could seriously hope to sell it for after going through your truck and addressing any potential small issues would be an outright break even if I didn't have to pay the salesman...which I obviously would. And that is with me assuming that there was literally nothing wrong with it and that all the fixes apply to making it look god...which a good salesman never assumes because there is almost always something 'wrong' that would make me take a hit on price if i didn't have it fixed.
Last edited by jsaylor; 1/12/11 at 02:12 PM.
1/12/11, 02:18 PM
#23
+1
X-Plan is a fixed price with limits on other charges; the dealer makes a fixed profit straight from Ford that's why a dealer can choose to take X-Plan or not.
I don't follow the belief that all dealers are crooks but generally speaking it is very hard to beat an X-Plan price unless the dealer is near desperate to get rid of the car. The fact that a dealer tries to talk you out of using X-Plan in exchange for a near invoice price often means the dealer is squeezing money out of you somewhere else (not always, but often).
As far as your trade-in goes that's the nature of the beast -- the more profit a dealer makes the more wiggle room he'll have on a trade. If you really want to get fair market value for your truck you actually have to put it up on the market and sell it pivately.
X-Plan is a fixed price with limits on other charges; the dealer makes a fixed profit straight from Ford that's why a dealer can choose to take X-Plan or not.
I don't follow the belief that all dealers are crooks but generally speaking it is very hard to beat an X-Plan price unless the dealer is near desperate to get rid of the car. The fact that a dealer tries to talk you out of using X-Plan in exchange for a near invoice price often means the dealer is squeezing money out of you somewhere else (not always, but often).
As far as your trade-in goes that's the nature of the beast -- the more profit a dealer makes the more wiggle room he'll have on a trade. If you really want to get fair market value for your truck you actually have to put it up on the market and sell it pivately.
Last edited by jsaylor; 1/12/11 at 02:25 PM.
1/12/11, 02:29 PM
#24
Is this thread for real?
The dealer gave you a reasonably good price. Why would you expect not to have to pay taxes? Or title and licensing for that matter?
The dealer gave you a reasonably good price. Why would you expect not to have to pay taxes? Or title and licensing for that matter?
1/12/11, 03:01 PM
#25
Use your X-plan PIN, list your truck, and pick up the Mustang you want once you figure out a price. You're going to pay TTL no matter what. Just make sure you read over the purchase order for any other BS add-ins, like VIN etching and filing fees.
1/12/11, 03:24 PM
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Without further details the pricing sounds like a good deal. Like others have said you are not going to get the dealer to eat TTL costs because they have no control over those. What you will have some room to deal on is the dealer fees that come up during the end of your transaction. Some of the big ones to look out for are Identity Theft, Low Jack and excessive documentation fees.
1/12/11, 04:36 PM
#27
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Thanks guys for tue honest feedback. Yes, I understand ttl has to be paid. And also, I realize dealers are going to try and low ball trade ins.
I guess a better question should have been- is invoice/xplan absolutely the lowest a dealer can go without losing money i.e. break even.
It sounds like it is and the deal is great, so I need to pay my truck down more and save more for a down.
I guess a better question should have been- is invoice/xplan absolutely the lowest a dealer can go without losing money i.e. break even.
It sounds like it is and the deal is great, so I need to pay my truck down more and save more for a down.
1/12/11, 05:31 PM
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Thanks guys for tue honest feedback. Yes, I understand ttl has to be paid. And also, I realize dealers are going to try and low ball trade ins.
I guess a better question should have been- is invoice/xplan absolutely the lowest a dealer can go without losing money i.e. break even.
It sounds like it is and the deal is great, so I need to pay my truck down more and save more for a down.
I guess a better question should have been- is invoice/xplan absolutely the lowest a dealer can go without losing money i.e. break even.
It sounds like it is and the deal is great, so I need to pay my truck down more and save more for a down.
It's not good business to sell a product at a loss. It obviously puts your business in jeopardy financially, but also sets precedence for future transactions.
Many dealers like x-plan because it simplifies the process quite a bit. They know they'll get their kick-back from Ford.
1/12/11, 07:09 PM
#29
Needs to be more Astony
I didn't read the whole thread but most are right you always are going to pay tax, title and licence on top of the car sale price. $200 above invoice is a great price.
I am a Ford Salesman, feel free to PM me if you have any questions.
I am a Ford Salesman, feel free to PM me if you have any questions.
1/12/11, 07:55 PM
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Not sure about CA ... but in GA your trade-in value will be deducted from the Sale Price as far as Sales Tax is concerned ... so ...
In Goeriga ... If the Car is $37,800 ... and they give you $10,000 trade on your Truck ... then you would only have to pay sales tax on $27,800 instead of $37,800 ...
In Goeriga ... If the Car is $37,800 ... and they give you $10,000 trade on your Truck ... then you would only have to pay sales tax on $27,800 instead of $37,800 ...
1/12/11, 08:23 PM
#31
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I paid $38K for my Mustang with every option you mentioned plus Lowjack. Out the door including tax and all that other mombo jombo $40K. NO discount for cash too! Love my car tho.
1/12/11, 09:33 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by dmhines
Not sure about CA ... but in GA your trade-in value will be deducted from the Sale Price as far as Sales Tax is concerned ... so ...
In Goeriga ... If the Car is $37,800 ... and they give you $10,000 trade on your Truck ... then you would only have to pay sales tax on $27,800 instead of $37,800 ...
In Goeriga ... If the Car is $37,800 ... and they give you $10,000 trade on your Truck ... then you would only have to pay sales tax on $27,800 instead of $37,800 ...
1/12/11, 10:18 PM
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I don't think you're factoring in the holdback. Selling at invoice doesn't mean the dealer doesn't make a profit.
Honestly, this is information you should know before you go into a dealership and start looking at cars.
I've purchased many in my days and never once has a deal ever been done in the manor in which you wanted it on your end. It's not the dealer that charges tax and licensing fees. Their job is to sell you the car. Just like if you goto target you have to pay sales tax. They don't give you the prices of the merchandise with tax included. That is added at the counter.
KBB and NADA values for used cars don't mean crap to a dealer. It's a good "idea" of where you might be, but that's all it is, an idea. In the end, the dealer is going to run the auction listings for similar vehicles to yours and pay based on what the vehicle would bring at auction.
The dealer was offering you quite a fair deal in my opinion. They were only $1000.00 off what you wanted for your truck (which probably could have been negotiated a bit) and they were offering you basically invoice (their cost) for the car, plus incentives from Ford. That deal doesn't get much better unless you have a D or C plan pin available to you.
Lets look at it from a bartering stand point. For a successful barter, both parties need to mutually benefit, otherwise no exchange will occur. In your situation the dealership was offering you the car at $200.00 over what they paid Ford for it, so that's profit in their hands. The tax and licensing fees go to your state and there's no way you're getting around those. So those aren't profit for the dealership.
The destination fee is charged to the dealer by Ford for transport of the vehicle to their dealership. I'm sure there's a bit of profit for the dealer in there if they are also performing a handling fee. This is your first tank of fuel, the initial detail of the car and it's initial inspection. Sometimes you can get a dealer to waive this fee, sometimes not. It's pretty standard across all dealerships though.
The dealership has to profit. If they don't, they don't have to sell you that car. They are under no legal obligation to do so. They gave you IMHO a pretty good deal.
On your end of the barter, you want as much for your truck as possible and as low of a price for their car as possible. Simply by low sell high economics. However you have to make a compromise somewhere in there otherwise the barter isn't mutually beneficial to both parties and no sale occurs.
When it comes to your truck on trade, you have to realize that if they aren't going to sell you their car for it's stated value (MSRP) then why would they want to buy yours for stated value (KBB, NADA)?
This is simply how deals work. The only way you're going to get much better of a deal is to walk around with cash on hand without a trade, or by becoming a broker allowing you to purchase direct without going through a dealership.
I personally wouldn't call the dealership shady at all. I'd simply call them a business trying to make enough profit to stay in business.
The deal goes both ways though. You didn't feel that it was a good deal and you walked, which is certainly your choice.
I wouldn't really expect another dealership to offer you a deal much better though.
That's jut my .02
I've purchased many in my days and never once has a deal ever been done in the manor in which you wanted it on your end. It's not the dealer that charges tax and licensing fees. Their job is to sell you the car. Just like if you goto target you have to pay sales tax. They don't give you the prices of the merchandise with tax included. That is added at the counter.
KBB and NADA values for used cars don't mean crap to a dealer. It's a good "idea" of where you might be, but that's all it is, an idea. In the end, the dealer is going to run the auction listings for similar vehicles to yours and pay based on what the vehicle would bring at auction.
The dealer was offering you quite a fair deal in my opinion. They were only $1000.00 off what you wanted for your truck (which probably could have been negotiated a bit) and they were offering you basically invoice (their cost) for the car, plus incentives from Ford. That deal doesn't get much better unless you have a D or C plan pin available to you.
Lets look at it from a bartering stand point. For a successful barter, both parties need to mutually benefit, otherwise no exchange will occur. In your situation the dealership was offering you the car at $200.00 over what they paid Ford for it, so that's profit in their hands. The tax and licensing fees go to your state and there's no way you're getting around those. So those aren't profit for the dealership.
The destination fee is charged to the dealer by Ford for transport of the vehicle to their dealership. I'm sure there's a bit of profit for the dealer in there if they are also performing a handling fee. This is your first tank of fuel, the initial detail of the car and it's initial inspection. Sometimes you can get a dealer to waive this fee, sometimes not. It's pretty standard across all dealerships though.
The dealership has to profit. If they don't, they don't have to sell you that car. They are under no legal obligation to do so. They gave you IMHO a pretty good deal.
On your end of the barter, you want as much for your truck as possible and as low of a price for their car as possible. Simply by low sell high economics. However you have to make a compromise somewhere in there otherwise the barter isn't mutually beneficial to both parties and no sale occurs.
When it comes to your truck on trade, you have to realize that if they aren't going to sell you their car for it's stated value (MSRP) then why would they want to buy yours for stated value (KBB, NADA)?
This is simply how deals work. The only way you're going to get much better of a deal is to walk around with cash on hand without a trade, or by becoming a broker allowing you to purchase direct without going through a dealership.
I personally wouldn't call the dealership shady at all. I'd simply call them a business trying to make enough profit to stay in business.
The deal goes both ways though. You didn't feel that it was a good deal and you walked, which is certainly your choice.
I wouldn't really expect another dealership to offer you a deal much better though.
That's jut my .02
1/13/11, 07:24 AM
#35
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Try Carmax
When buying my 2011 V6 Convertible, I was faced with selling my 04 Mustang out right since my new car was out of state. I went to Carmax and received a fair offer to buy my car outright and got a check. I then flew up to the dealer and drove home. Very happy with both transactions.
1/13/11, 07:46 AM
#36
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Not sure about CA ... but in GA your trade-in value will be deducted from the Sale Price as far as Sales Tax is concerned ... so ...
In Goeriga ... If the Car is $37,800 ... and they give you $10,000 trade on your Truck ... then you would only have to pay sales tax on $27,800 instead of $37,800 ...
In Goeriga ... If the Car is $37,800 ... and they give you $10,000 trade on your Truck ... then you would only have to pay sales tax on $27,800 instead of $37,800 ...
1/13/11, 08:24 AM
#37
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I believe most states operate like this. Even if you don't quite get what you want for your old car, if it's close you're usually always better trading it due to the tax incentive it creates.
1/13/11, 08:56 AM
#39
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You would be amazed at the amont of folks thst DO NOT know
This!! Years ago when I was in new car sales my dealer made THOUSANDS
by taking advantage of folks on the Tax thing! This was one of the
reason I quit that field long ago.....
This!! Years ago when I was in new car sales my dealer made THOUSANDS
by taking advantage of folks on the Tax thing! This was one of the
reason I quit that field long ago.....
1/13/11, 09:50 AM
#40
You mean like charging more tax than they are suppose to?