Shady Dealership, were they lying?
1/12/11, 09:43 AM
#1
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Shady Dealership, were they lying?
looking for some advice/peace of mind.I ordered a 2005 mustang GT from a local dealership back in 04 via xplan. Loved the car, drove it for almost 3 years but had to sell it for financial reasons. I've started looking again to get back in to a mustang-
2011 GT premium, Manual, Rapid Spec 400A, Electronics Package, Security Package, 3.73 Gears, HID, Comfort Package, Brembo Brake Package, Rear Video Camera, GT Coupe Accessory Package 1.
I found the exact car above at the same dealership I bought my 05. MSRP is $40,600 and the invoice is $37,600. My fiancée went in and looked at it (I work 50 miles from the dealership, she works right next to it) and the sales guy quoted her $37,800...$200 above invoice. Wrote the number down, circled it, and said this your number...less $2k in incentives...and it will be $35,800. Xplan was only going to save me a little more than that but still got a pin just in case.
I have a trade in...2005 dodge ram daytona, 5.7L Hemi, 89k miles, but great condition, with some negative equity (not much). $2k negative at the most I thought based on averaging Good and Excellent KBB trade in value (which I have been told is what most dealerships will give you).
So I talked to the sales guy over the phone, verified pricing and scheduled to go in last night. He wasn't going to be there but said I could work with the Sales Manager and he would pass along my info. Test drove the car (wow what a difference 6 years makes), instantly fell in love, but still kept my cool (I want the car...but I don't need it is what i kept telling myself so I didn't come off eager).
They offer me the FAIR KBB trade in value which was $1,000 less than what I thought I should get for my truck and also said "well the price you were quoted for the mustang doesn't include..." and rattled off tax, license, destination, and several other items.
The resulting price was $4,000 more for the car than what I was quoted. $5k if you factor in them giving me $1k less for my truck than I assumed. Granted, I was never told what they would give me for my truck. But even taking out that assumption on my part..which I guess I was wrong, it is $4k more.
So I'm pissed at this point but keep my cool and say "ok well I'm not paying tax/license. That's not what I was told. I like the car and am willing to sign tonight, but not for that price and especially you giving me $1k less for my truck so what can you do?"
The guy said "well we aren't a charity and someone has to pay tax and license and fees...we're already giving you the car at close to invoice...so who's going to pay it? How do we make our money?" I said as polite as I could "not me and not my problem on how you make money" and he said "well we don't have a deal I guess".
So I walked.
I'm sure most of you know the feeling. Being pissed off and disappointed but knowing you did the right thing. I feel like the dealership still had some room to wiggle. They could have given me more for my truck ($1k more) and I could have put $1k down (never told them that though). Then we would have been about $3k away from where I need to be.
Am I being unrealistic to think a dealership can discount a car below invoice (or work the deal somehow) to make up the $3k difference? Or does selling me the car at invoice/xplan pretty much mean they make no money off the deal?
1/12/11, 09:50 AM
#2
MOTM Committee Member
I know it sucks that the taxes and stuff tack on SO much more to the car (especially in CA) but that's just the way it is.
I can't speak on the value of your trade, but they were giving you a good price on the car. $200 above invoice is about what everyone's been getting.
I can't speak on the value of your trade, but they were giving you a good price on the car. $200 above invoice is about what everyone's been getting.
1/12/11, 09:51 AM
#3
Something doesn't quite add up. Best advice I can offer you is to go to another dealer, and hammer out all the pricing details on the Mustang before you start talking trades. If you're really trying to maximize money in your pocket, put the truck up on AutoTrader for $70 and sell it yourself. You might be able to knock that neg. equity out.
1/12/11, 10:19 AM
#6
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Honestly, this is information you should know before you go into a dealership and start looking at cars.
I've purchased many in my days and never once has a deal ever been done in the manor in which you wanted it on your end. It's not the dealer that charges tax and licensing fees. Their job is to sell you the car. Just like if you goto target you have to pay sales tax. They don't give you the prices of the merchandise with tax included. That is added at the counter.
KBB and NADA values for used cars don't mean crap to a dealer. It's a good "idea" of where you might be, but that's all it is, an idea. In the end, the dealer is going to run the auction listings for similar vehicles to yours and pay based on what the vehicle would bring at auction.
The dealer was offering you quite a fair deal in my opinion. They were only $1000.00 off what you wanted for your truck (which probably could have been negotiated a bit) and they were offering you basically invoice (their cost) for the car, plus incentives from Ford. That deal doesn't get much better unless you have a D or C plan pin available to you.
Lets look at it from a bartering stand point. For a successful barter, both parties need to mutually benefit, otherwise no exchange will occur. In your situation the dealership was offering you the car at $200.00 over what they paid Ford for it, so that's profit in their hands. The tax and licensing fees go to your state and there's no way you're getting around those. So those aren't profit for the dealership.
The destination fee is charged to the dealer by Ford for transport of the vehicle to their dealership. I'm sure there's a bit of profit for the dealer in there if they are also performing a handling fee. This is your first tank of fuel, the initial detail of the car and it's initial inspection. Sometimes you can get a dealer to waive this fee, sometimes not. It's pretty standard across all dealerships though.
The dealership has to profit. If they don't, they don't have to sell you that car. They are under no legal obligation to do so. They gave you IMHO a pretty good deal.
On your end of the barter, you want as much for your truck as possible and as low of a price for their car as possible. Simply by low sell high economics. However you have to make a compromise somewhere in there otherwise the barter isn't mutually beneficial to both parties and no sale occurs.
When it comes to your truck on trade, you have to realize that if they aren't going to sell you their car for it's stated value (MSRP) then why would they want to buy yours for stated value (KBB, NADA)?
This is simply how deals work. The only way you're going to get much better of a deal is to walk around with cash on hand without a trade, or by becoming a broker allowing you to purchase direct without going through a dealership.
I personally wouldn't call the dealership shady at all. I'd simply call them a business trying to make enough profit to stay in business.
The deal goes both ways though. You didn't feel that it was a good deal and you walked, which is certainly your choice.
I wouldn't really expect another dealership to offer you a deal much better though.
That's jut my .02
I've purchased many in my days and never once has a deal ever been done in the manor in which you wanted it on your end. It's not the dealer that charges tax and licensing fees. Their job is to sell you the car. Just like if you goto target you have to pay sales tax. They don't give you the prices of the merchandise with tax included. That is added at the counter.
KBB and NADA values for used cars don't mean crap to a dealer. It's a good "idea" of where you might be, but that's all it is, an idea. In the end, the dealer is going to run the auction listings for similar vehicles to yours and pay based on what the vehicle would bring at auction.
The dealer was offering you quite a fair deal in my opinion. They were only $1000.00 off what you wanted for your truck (which probably could have been negotiated a bit) and they were offering you basically invoice (their cost) for the car, plus incentives from Ford. That deal doesn't get much better unless you have a D or C plan pin available to you.
Lets look at it from a bartering stand point. For a successful barter, both parties need to mutually benefit, otherwise no exchange will occur. In your situation the dealership was offering you the car at $200.00 over what they paid Ford for it, so that's profit in their hands. The tax and licensing fees go to your state and there's no way you're getting around those. So those aren't profit for the dealership.
The destination fee is charged to the dealer by Ford for transport of the vehicle to their dealership. I'm sure there's a bit of profit for the dealer in there if they are also performing a handling fee. This is your first tank of fuel, the initial detail of the car and it's initial inspection. Sometimes you can get a dealer to waive this fee, sometimes not. It's pretty standard across all dealerships though.
The dealership has to profit. If they don't, they don't have to sell you that car. They are under no legal obligation to do so. They gave you IMHO a pretty good deal.
On your end of the barter, you want as much for your truck as possible and as low of a price for their car as possible. Simply by low sell high economics. However you have to make a compromise somewhere in there otherwise the barter isn't mutually beneficial to both parties and no sale occurs.
When it comes to your truck on trade, you have to realize that if they aren't going to sell you their car for it's stated value (MSRP) then why would they want to buy yours for stated value (KBB, NADA)?
This is simply how deals work. The only way you're going to get much better of a deal is to walk around with cash on hand without a trade, or by becoming a broker allowing you to purchase direct without going through a dealership.
I personally wouldn't call the dealership shady at all. I'd simply call them a business trying to make enough profit to stay in business.
The deal goes both ways though. You didn't feel that it was a good deal and you walked, which is certainly your choice.
I wouldn't really expect another dealership to offer you a deal much better though.
That's jut my .02
Last edited by jlmounce; 1/12/11 at 10:22 AM.
1/12/11, 10:26 AM
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Yeah they gave you a decent price. Everyone has to pay taxes and other fees. Every dealership will try and low ball you on trade ins. This is a known fact. You might be able to negotiate a bit more for the trade, but that was a decent price. They were giving it to you for 35k on a 40k car. That's 5k off.
1/12/11, 10:30 AM
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Well said and I couldn't agree more.
Honestly, this is information you should know before you go into a dealership and start looking at cars.
I've purchased many in my days and never once has a deal ever been done in the manor in which you wanted it on your end. It's not the dealer that charges tax and licensing fees. Their job is to sell you the car. Just like if you goto target you have to pay sales tax. They don't give you the prices of the merchandise with tax included. That is added at the counter.
KBB and NADA values for used cars don't mean crap to a dealer. It's a good "idea" of where you might be, but that's all it is, an idea. In the end, the dealer is going to run the auction listings for similar vehicles to yours and pay based on what the vehicle would bring at auction.
The dealer was offering you quite a fair deal in my opinion. They were only $1000.00 off what you wanted for your truck (which probably could have been negotiated a bit) and they were offering you basically invoice (their cost) for the car, plus incentives from Ford. That deal doesn't get much better unless you have a D or C plan pin available to you.
Lets look at it from a bartering stand point. For a successful barter, both parties need to mutually benefit, otherwise no exchange will occur. In your situation the dealership was offering you the car at $200.00 over what they paid Ford for it, so that's profit in their hands. The tax and licensing fees go to your state and there's no way you're getting around those. So those aren't profit for the dealership.
The destination fee is charged to the dealer by Ford for transport of the vehicle to their dealership. I'm sure there's a bit of profit for the dealer in there if they are also performing a handling fee. This is your first tank of fuel, the initial detail of the car and it's initial inspection. Sometimes you can get a dealer to waive this fee, sometimes not. It's pretty standard across all dealerships though.
The dealership has to profit. If they don't, they don't have to sell you that car. They are under no legal obligation to do so. They gave you IMHO a pretty good deal.
On your end of the barter, you want as much for your truck as possible and as low of a price for their car as possible. Simply by low sell high economics. However you have to make a compromise somewhere in there otherwise the barter isn't mutually beneficial to both parties and no sale occurs.
When it comes to your truck on trade, you have to realize that if they aren't going to sell you their car for it's stated value (MSRP) then why would they want to buy yours for stated value (KBB, NADA)?
This is simply how deals work. The only way you're going to get much better of a deal is to walk around with cash on hand without a trade, or by becoming a broker allowing you to purchase direct without going through a dealership.
I personally wouldn't call the dealership shady at all. I'd simply call them a business trying to make enough profit to stay in business.
The deal goes both ways though. You didn't feel that it was a good deal and you walked, which is certainly your choice.
I wouldn't really expect another dealership to offer you a deal much better though.
That's jut my .02
I've purchased many in my days and never once has a deal ever been done in the manor in which you wanted it on your end. It's not the dealer that charges tax and licensing fees. Their job is to sell you the car. Just like if you goto target you have to pay sales tax. They don't give you the prices of the merchandise with tax included. That is added at the counter.
KBB and NADA values for used cars don't mean crap to a dealer. It's a good "idea" of where you might be, but that's all it is, an idea. In the end, the dealer is going to run the auction listings for similar vehicles to yours and pay based on what the vehicle would bring at auction.
The dealer was offering you quite a fair deal in my opinion. They were only $1000.00 off what you wanted for your truck (which probably could have been negotiated a bit) and they were offering you basically invoice (their cost) for the car, plus incentives from Ford. That deal doesn't get much better unless you have a D or C plan pin available to you.
Lets look at it from a bartering stand point. For a successful barter, both parties need to mutually benefit, otherwise no exchange will occur. In your situation the dealership was offering you the car at $200.00 over what they paid Ford for it, so that's profit in their hands. The tax and licensing fees go to your state and there's no way you're getting around those. So those aren't profit for the dealership.
The destination fee is charged to the dealer by Ford for transport of the vehicle to their dealership. I'm sure there's a bit of profit for the dealer in there if they are also performing a handling fee. This is your first tank of fuel, the initial detail of the car and it's initial inspection. Sometimes you can get a dealer to waive this fee, sometimes not. It's pretty standard across all dealerships though.
The dealership has to profit. If they don't, they don't have to sell you that car. They are under no legal obligation to do so. They gave you IMHO a pretty good deal.
On your end of the barter, you want as much for your truck as possible and as low of a price for their car as possible. Simply by low sell high economics. However you have to make a compromise somewhere in there otherwise the barter isn't mutually beneficial to both parties and no sale occurs.
When it comes to your truck on trade, you have to realize that if they aren't going to sell you their car for it's stated value (MSRP) then why would they want to buy yours for stated value (KBB, NADA)?
This is simply how deals work. The only way you're going to get much better of a deal is to walk around with cash on hand without a trade, or by becoming a broker allowing you to purchase direct without going through a dealership.
I personally wouldn't call the dealership shady at all. I'd simply call them a business trying to make enough profit to stay in business.
The deal goes both ways though. You didn't feel that it was a good deal and you walked, which is certainly your choice.
I wouldn't really expect another dealership to offer you a deal much better though.
That's jut my .02
1/12/11, 10:38 AM
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You might want to consider using your X-plan PIN because it forces the dealer to limit their advertising/setup/administration/profit fee to just $75. Many dealers will charge a fee as high as $699 on a non-X-plan deal so you could see some savings there.
1/12/11, 10:49 AM
#11
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Shoot me a PM if you want my sales persons contact in the bay area.
I got $500 below invoice plus $1500 rebate. I also get 20% off at the parts counter too.
You can get the same deal. Let me know.
I got $500 below invoice plus $1500 rebate. I also get 20% off at the parts counter too.
You can get the same deal. Let me know.
Last edited by S197 GT; 1/12/11 at 10:55 AM.
1/12/11, 10:52 AM
#12
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Yep...that sounded about the right deal. The sales guy quoted the price to sell the car for....not the "out the door" price. They also won't quote trade in prices. I would say since this is not your first go around at this, you should have known there is no line about taxes and such on the window sticker. Either suck it up and go back or shop else where. You may have screwed yourself on that deal too......
On my GT/CS, I was able to get it out the door for dang close to the sticker after incentives, taxes, dealer fees, and all, then deducted the trade. They were off at first and they kept wanting to deal that night. I told them the only way I would is if they raised my trade value $2000 and leave the rest as it was. Figured they would never go that much......well, we drove the car home. Not a perfect deal but one I could live with.
On my GT/CS, I was able to get it out the door for dang close to the sticker after incentives, taxes, dealer fees, and all, then deducted the trade. They were off at first and they kept wanting to deal that night. I told them the only way I would is if they raised my trade value $2000 and leave the rest as it was. Figured they would never go that much......well, we drove the car home. Not a perfect deal but one I could live with.
1/12/11, 10:55 AM
#13
Go back and get your car - use x-plan so you do not feel "ripped off" and giving up around a grand on your truck is reasonable compared to selling it (hopefully for what you want) yourself. Sounds like they were giving you a very fair price - you are unrealistic to expect not to pay sales tax and fees.
1/12/11, 11:00 AM
#14
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SurfnSoCal,
I realize that you want the bottom line price and it was stupid of your dealer not to give you the price with tags, tax, and destination. However, feeling you shouldn't have to pay any of those is not realistic. I'd fight harder on the trade and get them to give you another $1k on it but that's about the best you are going to do.
I realize that you want the bottom line price and it was stupid of your dealer not to give you the price with tags, tax, and destination. However, feeling you shouldn't have to pay any of those is not realistic. I'd fight harder on the trade and get them to give you another $1k on it but that's about the best you are going to do.
1/12/11, 11:16 AM
#15
GTR Member
You didn't exactly itemize the charges they were trying to hit you up for so it's hard to tell.
The only thing I see that I would question is the destination, that should be included in the quoted price unless they said otherwise on the quote.
EVERYONE has to pay tax, title and license fees though.
Last quote on a car I got said $XX,XXX plus TT&L so I knew exactly what they were quoting me.
The only thing I see that I would question is the destination, that should be included in the quoted price unless they said otherwise on the quote.
EVERYONE has to pay tax, title and license fees though.
Last quote on a car I got said $XX,XXX plus TT&L so I knew exactly what they were quoting me.
1/12/11, 11:41 AM
#17
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It's great you walked away. Dealers have their ways to pinch every last cent out of you. When buying, I lowball the crap out of them because the worst that can happen is they say no. Keep in mind it's a buyer's market right now but in a few months it wont be. If you still want the car, try again on the 31st. They tend to be more negotiable at the end of month. BTW, upper 30's for a GT, I'll pass!
1/12/11, 11:44 AM
#18
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I dont know if they are still doing it but when i got my 11GT i used a coupon from ford for the amount of 750$ the dealer knew i was getting it before it got to my house. You may want to call ford CS ( Ford Customer Service Division
p: 800.392.FORD) and ask about it for me it was about equal to free shipping (100$ short but close) i got mine by got to there site and asking for info on the car and it should up in the mail a few weeks later. But like i said the dealers saw it a week before i got it. heck it is worth a try ..
As for the quote price most times unless i ask what the "OUT THE DOOR" price is I assume TT&L will be added so the dealer most times give me a price on the CAR alone not the paperwork BS. Oh and that coupon was used with a Xplan and rebates in force at the time.. Happy shopping
p: 800.392.FORD) and ask about it for me it was about equal to free shipping (100$ short but close) i got mine by got to there site and asking for info on the car and it should up in the mail a few weeks later. But like i said the dealers saw it a week before i got it. heck it is worth a try ..
As for the quote price most times unless i ask what the "OUT THE DOOR" price is I assume TT&L will be added so the dealer most times give me a price on the CAR alone not the paperwork BS. Oh and that coupon was used with a Xplan and rebates in force at the time.. Happy shopping
Last edited by rodmoe; 1/12/11 at 12:00 PM. Reason: add phone number Ford Customer Service Division p: 800.392.FORD
1/12/11, 11:46 AM
#20
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Some parts of the "taxes and fees" are dictated by the government, some parts are extra profit for the dealer, the hard part is figuring out which is which.
Sales tax is easy -- the state charges that, nothing you can do and it's a known quantity.
License fees -- find out how much the registry actually charges to register a car, anything they are chargine over that is actually money that the dealer is getting and might as well be part of the price.
"documentation fees" is where they really play games and hide their extra profit; around $75-100 is reasonable but any more than that is just a game, they are just putting it into a different number to make the "price" lower but it is still money that the dealer is charging you, to me it is part of the price.
From my experience "fair condition" trade in value is about what I'd expect; if you can do better that's good for you but unlikely.
Sales tax is easy -- the state charges that, nothing you can do and it's a known quantity.
License fees -- find out how much the registry actually charges to register a car, anything they are chargine over that is actually money that the dealer is getting and might as well be part of the price.
"documentation fees" is where they really play games and hide their extra profit; around $75-100 is reasonable but any more than that is just a game, they are just putting it into a different number to make the "price" lower but it is still money that the dealer is charging you, to me it is part of the price.
From my experience "fair condition" trade in value is about what I'd expect; if you can do better that's good for you but unlikely.
