Next recommended "cooling" mod?
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From: Canada, Ontario
or just stay traditional and go with http://vmptuning.com/07-12-gt500-cooling/vmphe-dual/
A Man Just Needs Some....
Joined: April 9, 2011
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From: Louisiana
As much as I like the ingenuity of the system I would pass on it for two reasons: 1) The AC compressor needs to be on for it to function. That adds additional heat load to the engine and engine compartment. Running the compressor also absorbs otherwise useful power from the intended forward acceleration! 2) The AC lines have to be opened up and modified. Not necessarily a big deal if you have the tools to do it and know what you’re doing. A word of warning on this: AC system do not like ANY dirt or foreign material floating around in them, ask me how I know! If you’re serious about heat rejection in the aftercoolant in a way that creates zero parasitic, doesn’t introduce additional heat load to the engine or further restrict the airflow to the AC condenser or engine radiator, a total loss boil off system filled with a methanol/ water mix mounted in the trunk would be ideal. The drawback is it needs to be refilled and there would be plumbing involved. The system works so well we use it on race planes to cool the entire engine and aftercooling system which includes an intercooler and aftercooler...before anybody says they’re the same, no they most definitely are not. Most of these systems are erroneously called intercoolers when in fact, they are AFTERcoolers. John
Mach 1 Member
Joined: May 11, 2012
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From: Belle Plaine, MN
I believe he's talking about while he's running the A/C anyways. So far I've read that the drag racers run there A/C while waiting for their turn then just shut the A/C off during a pass. The water won't heat up that fast and you still have the heat exchanger for when you don't the run the A/C. There should be no extra parasitic than running the A/C normally. The absolutely only drawback I see in the entire system is a slightly less performing A/C system. From what I was told maybe ten degree difference in vent outlet temp. Anything other than methanol, will be heat soak in traffic and still some heat soak during regular summer driving. I would really research some threads on SVTP. Those guys ain't selling anything and they are brutally honest over there.
John
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I Have No Life
Joined: September 24, 2011
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As much as I like the ingenuity of the system I would pass on it for two reasons:
1) The AC compressor needs to be on for it to function. That adds additional heat load to the engine and engine compartment. Running the compressor also absorbs otherwise useful power from the intended forward acceleration!
2) The AC lines have to be opened up and modified. Not necessarily a big deal if you have the tools to do it and know what you’re doing. A word of warning on this: AC system do not like ANY dirt or foreign material floating around in them, ask me how I know!
If you’re serious about heat rejection in the aftercoolant in a way that creates zero parasitic, doesn’t introduce additional heat load to the engine or further restrict the airflow to the AC condenser or engine radiator, a total loss boil off system filled with a methanol/ water mix mounted in the trunk would be ideal. The drawback is it needs to be refilled and there would be plumbing involved. The system works so well we use it on race planes to cool the entire engine and aftercooling system which includes an intercooler and aftercooler...before anybody says they’re the same, no they most definitely are not. Most of these systems are erroneously called intercoolers when in fact, they are AFTERcoolers.
John
1) The AC compressor needs to be on for it to function. That adds additional heat load to the engine and engine compartment. Running the compressor also absorbs otherwise useful power from the intended forward acceleration!
2) The AC lines have to be opened up and modified. Not necessarily a big deal if you have the tools to do it and know what you’re doing. A word of warning on this: AC system do not like ANY dirt or foreign material floating around in them, ask me how I know!
If you’re serious about heat rejection in the aftercoolant in a way that creates zero parasitic, doesn’t introduce additional heat load to the engine or further restrict the airflow to the AC condenser or engine radiator, a total loss boil off system filled with a methanol/ water mix mounted in the trunk would be ideal. The drawback is it needs to be refilled and there would be plumbing involved. The system works so well we use it on race planes to cool the entire engine and aftercooling system which includes an intercooler and aftercooler...before anybody says they’re the same, no they most definitely are not. Most of these systems are erroneously called intercoolers when in fact, they are AFTERcoolers.
John
)Thanks sir. I'm not FI with this stang, but I did have a twin turbo'd mach 1 before my current stang. I got the Saleen because it looks great and because I hate the fog lights in the center. I know it's the iconic mustang look, but that just doesnt do it for me. Plus I have fogs in my Roush bumper.
I'm not sure if the grille helps with cooling it down, but it might as there is more airflow with out the fogs in the way. I know the HE will be more beneficial for the performance aspect of the two. However the Saleen is much cheaper.
So it's up to you, looks/cheaper or performance/more expensive.
I'm not sure if the grille helps with cooling it down, but it might as there is more airflow with out the fogs in the way. I know the HE will be more beneficial for the performance aspect of the two. However the Saleen is much cheaper.
So it's up to you, looks/cheaper or performance/more expensive.Did you drill out the lower left driver side flat spot for more open area?
I'm pretty sure you can find a few at SVTP that are running the system. Looks pretty simple to install. There are T fittings that tie into your A/C lines so you will have to evacuate your A/C, cut and T in the new fittings, route the coolant hoses and charge the A/C back up. So a few lines to route and clamp which are very clean and not noticeable, a black box, and that's about it. Looks like there's also an intake temp gauge that can be purchased separately. Looks perfect for what you are looking to do. The kit goes for $799.
Let me do some reading.or just stay traditional and go with http://vmptuning.com/07-12-gt500-cooling/vmphe-dual/
John, I agree. The only "parasitic" loss from the Dual Fan HE is that it's running the fans, right? The rest of it is the same... no condenser running, since I don't run the AC.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: April 11, 2012
Posts: 981
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From: Houston, TX
Please keep the stock fogs! Even though I love my boss... the other night I looked in my mirror to see an all-too-familiar 4 light cluster coming my way... There's just something so good looking about the GT's row of lights...
That's just my non-cooling $.02...
That's just my non-cooling $.02...
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Joined: April 21, 2014
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From: Canada, Ontario
Thread Starter
I Have No Life
Joined: September 24, 2011
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To increase cooling while keeping the fogs, the option to go with is the VMP/Steeda HE then eh?
A Man Just Needs Some....
Joined: April 9, 2011
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From: Louisiana
You don't run your A/C? I can't even imagine that. My a/c is running even in the winter. I'm guessing you're up north somewhere. Down here this system seems to be a prayer answered. Bigger exchanger with its own fan might be your only option then.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: May 11, 2012
Posts: 610
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From: Belle Plaine, MN
John... point #1 is a no go for me. I did not know that the AC has to be on for this to work. After thinking about it and reading about it, duh, yes, because it relies on refrigerant, same as AC, so it has to be on. The reason why its a no go, is because I don't drive with my AC (or stereo for that matter). It's windows down all the time so I can hear my maggie, cai, and corsas. Having an AC on during that would not jive. (plus mileage loss! )
John, I agree. The only "parasitic" loss from the Dual Fan HE is that it's running the fans, right? The rest of it is the same... no condenser running, since I don't run the AC.
) John, I agree. The only "parasitic" loss from the Dual Fan HE is that it's running the fans, right? The rest of it is the same... no condenser running, since I don't run the AC.
Don't underestimate the load those cooling fans place on the alternator. Ever hear your engine "Bounce" when the radiator fans kick on? The aftercooler fans are no different. The rub is ya gotta do something to cool the charge when you're driving too slow for ample airflow over the heat exchanger so it's the least of the evils. Converting your ride to e85 would solve part of the issue and as a bonus, you'll make more power with a good tune.
John
A Man Just Needs Some....
Joined: April 9, 2011
Posts: 17,125
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From: Louisiana
I typically don't run the AC either. I don't like the heat load it places on the engine or underhood components. I know they're engineered to take it but the less exposure the better in my opinion. Don't underestimate the load those cooling fans place on the alternator. Ever hear your engine "Bounce" when the radiator fans kick on? The aftercooler fans are no different. The rub is ya gotta do something to cool the charge when you're driving too slow for ample airflow over the heat exchanger so it's the least of the evils. Converting your ride to e85 would solve part of the issue and as a bonus, you'll make more power with a good tune. John
John
Roush Forum Stalker
Joined: March 9, 2013
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From: Massachusetts
This is what you want. Amazing system.
http://www.killerchiller.com/system_1_page.htm
http://www.killerchiller.com/system_1_page.htm
I'm not sure if it affects your AC when on. But, this is an effective and proven system indeed.
You can run your AC with this system. I just don't think it's as effective with the Killer Chiller.
Last edited by Stage_3; Aug 21, 2014 at 02:55 PM. Reason: added text
Mach 1 Member
Joined: May 11, 2012
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From: Belle Plaine, MN
A/C and heat load? Sorry but that's just BS. Your condenser doesn't get hotter than your radiator. The compressor and pressure hose do not get as hot as your engine either. The low side and dryer are almost freezing. The electrical load doesn't cause any heat or strain on the motor either. The only component that will make more heat than your temp gauge shows is the exhaust. Sitting in traffic with no A/C will still have your fans kicking. The only good you are doing is sweating off a few pounds and swampassing your seat.
Now for the alternator load (And AC compressor load for that matter as well), please tell me you don’t believe an alternator with zero load placed on it offers the same mechanical resistance (Remember resistance to motion converts the motion into heat [it’s referred to as preservation of energy and states energy is not lost but only transformed into another state]) as an alternator putting out say 80 amps? Have you ever put your hand on an alternator putting out that kind of power? You better have the Unguintine ready for your burn. You say, “so what, so it’s hot!”. Well heat is energy and that energy came from your crankshaft. The alternator turned some of that energy taken from the crank into electricity and the rest into heat (For a number of reasons…primarily because alternators are not 100% efficient).
I don’t make the laws of physics and I may not like a lot of them but be damned…I haven’t figured out a way to cheat them and beat them yet. And for the record I am not an engineer of any kind but I sure have read a lot and busted a lot of otherwise good parts in the name of learning and ignorance…sometimes to the obvious.
John
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From: Massachusetts
or just stay traditional and go with http://vmptuning.com/07-12-gt500-cooling/vmphe-dual/
The welds alone would make me go with VMP. Plus, you get the name and performance that comes with it.
Just saying,...........
A Man Just Needs Some....
Joined: April 9, 2011
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From: Louisiana
A loaded alternator may cost you one horsepower over a low load. Just not enough to factor. It's enough to feel a slight blip when cruising. Fact of the matter is even less efficient cooling will still keep your engine temp at the thermostat/fan switch temp. You guys over analyze things that have no advantages. And don't even begin to bring fuel mileage into the equation.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: April 13, 2014
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From: Indiana
I am running CDC upper and roush lower delete with dual fan triple pass VMP HE . In 90* heat and sitting in traffic for 15 min, I see inlet temps up to 140*. Once I start moving, inlet temps drop and stay in low 130's.
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I Have No Life
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hmmmm that still seems high even with an open grill and VMP HE. Is 140/130 good or bad? I would have thought you'd be closer to ambient. Is it normal to be that high?
Mach 1 Member
Joined: May 11, 2012
Posts: 610
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From: Belle Plaine, MN
A loaded alternator may cost you one horsepower over a low load. Just not enough to factor. It's enough to feel a slight blip when cruising. Fact of the matter is even less efficient cooling will still keep your engine temp at the thermostat/fan switch temp. You guys over analyze things that have no advantages. And don't even begin to bring fuel mileage into the equation.
Al I don’t think anybody is overanalyzing anything, rather simply having a discussion, or at least that’s all I’m doing. You however, seem to be getting quite defensive for whatever unknown reason. I’m not saying nor did I ever say the fan option should be passed up because it places additional load on the alternator. In fact I believe earlier in the thread I said it was the lesser of the evils and I never put a measure on the “Evil”. I like the ingenuity of the AC powered cooler but would not be willing to, or think it’s worth the added expense of opening up the AC refrigerant lines. Personal preference.
BTW for what it’s worth you are close regarding the load an alternator places on the engine:
1 hp = 746 Watts. Alternators put out around 13.8 to 14.2 volts. Typical modern automotive alternators put out between 100 and 150 amps and I would guess with today’s load of electrical hardware in near constant operation in most modern cars the load would be about half of that, so around 50 to 75 amps continuous load. Alternators are at best about 60% efficient. 14V X 50a = 700 amp continuous load /.6 = 1167 Watts / 746 = 1.56hp continuous load at 50% duty cycle.
I’ll leave you with this thought: If 1.56 hp -and the power consumption of all the other engine accessories- was inconsequential to “Detroit” up to about 1971, then why did they dyno all their engines with remotely powered accessories? The only reason they stopped was because Big Brother told them the power figures they were advertising was not what the consumer was actually getting. That’s one reason why hp figures dropped significantly from 1970-72. The gas crunch in 1973 killed it the rest of the way.
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I Have No Life
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. Carry-on. 
Bullitt Member
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Haha! Of course, there's always the urge to scratch the "itch". I'll be first to admit that hehe. But I really do want to improve the cooling of our cars though. I didn't know our cars, when FI'd, heat soak so quickly.
What HE are you running, sir?
As for the VMP, any more info you have on it? When ordering, they have an option for a 170 thermostat. What's that for and is that necessary? When I installed the Maggie kit's HE, it was literally plug and play, mount HE, connect hoses, voila. Would this be the case here?
Lastly, I know some of you have has issues with VMP's customer service lately. That's what holds me back a little. Tbh, I'm pretty sick of $hitty customer service. Whether it be lack of communication, downright lies, or inattention and lack of accountability,
What HE are you running, sir?
As for the VMP, any more info you have on it? When ordering, they have an option for a 170 thermostat. What's that for and is that necessary? When I installed the Maggie kit's HE, it was literally plug and play, mount HE, connect hoses, voila. Would this be the case here?
Lastly, I know some of you have has issues with VMP's customer service lately. That's what holds me back a little. Tbh, I'm pretty sick of $hitty customer service. Whether it be lack of communication, downright lies, or inattention and lack of accountability,
or I definitely would have gotten that one. On the 2011-12's I believe there is a little trimming to do on the install but I don't think it is anything extreme. I had no issues with my purchase from them and feel lucky. I've had my share of "bad orders" from vendors in the past but nothing as extreme as what you have gone through so I understand why you would be gun shy.The 170 degree thermostat starts opening earlier than the stock 190 degree stat. But like I said unless you have your tuner change the fans to come on earlier than stock it's not going to do much. On the 2011 and up VMP recommends the fans at 50% at 180F and 100% by 200F. I'm putting in a 170 stat in a a week or two when I do some updates and new dyno tune.
Last edited by GT50GO; Aug 21, 2014 at 06:50 PM.