E85 on stock coyote?
5/4/15, 06:24 AM
#2
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None. Quite the opposite... you will lose horsepower, not to mention possibly damaging the fuel system.
Ethanol has about 35% less energy by volume than gasoline but has a higher octane rating. Without some serious modifications to take advantage of the octane, overall you will lose power because of the lower energy content. Ethanol is a good high-power fuel in engines designed for it, typically with higher compression ratios and/or forced induction. But it's a lousy power producer in standard gasoline engines.
Ethanol has about 35% less energy by volume than gasoline but has a higher octane rating. Without some serious modifications to take advantage of the octane, overall you will lose power because of the lower energy content. Ethanol is a good high-power fuel in engines designed for it, typically with higher compression ratios and/or forced induction. But it's a lousy power producer in standard gasoline engines.
5/4/15, 06:42 AM
#3
Cobra R Member
None. Quite the opposite... you will lose horsepower, not to mention possibly damaging the fuel system.
Ethanol has about 35% less energy by volume than gasoline but has a higher octane rating. Without some serious modifications to take advantage of the octane, overall you will lose power because of the lower energy content. Ethanol is a good high-power fuel in engines designed for it, typically with higher compression ratios and/or forced induction. But it's a lousy power producer in standard gasoline engines.
Ethanol has about 35% less energy by volume than gasoline but has a higher octane rating. Without some serious modifications to take advantage of the octane, overall you will lose power because of the lower energy content. Ethanol is a good high-power fuel in engines designed for it, typically with higher compression ratios and/or forced induction. But it's a lousy power producer in standard gasoline engines.
People get 35-50hp on just the change alone but they also have supporting mods. ID1000's and a BAP.
5/4/15, 07:42 AM
#4
Mach 1 Member
None. Quite the opposite... you will lose horsepower, not to mention possibly damaging the fuel system.
Ethanol has about 35% less energy by volume than gasoline but has a higher octane rating. Without some serious modifications to take advantage of the octane, overall you will lose power because of the lower energy content. Ethanol is a good high-power fuel in engines designed for it, typically with higher compression ratios and/or forced induction. But it's a lousy power producer in standard gasoline engines.
Ethanol has about 35% less energy by volume than gasoline but has a higher octane rating. Without some serious modifications to take advantage of the octane, overall you will lose power because of the lower energy content. Ethanol is a good high-power fuel in engines designed for it, typically with higher compression ratios and/or forced induction. But it's a lousy power producer in standard gasoline engines.
OP, I believe most guys who are converting their Coyotes have also done other mods to their engines to capitalize on the benifits of running ethanol. If you're stock I believe you can get away with stock injectors. If otherwise modded, you would likely need to go with larger injectors.
John
5/4/15, 09:45 AM
#6
Mach 1 Member
Not at all...quite the opposite. You will consume a lot more E85 though if that's any concern to you. And remember E85 may be difficult to find in some locations.
My gut tells me you know very little about this. I would strongly suggest doing a lot of research before making such a critical change.
John
Last edited by Horspla; 5/4/15 at 09:48 AM.
5/4/15, 10:05 AM
#7
Mach 1 Member
5/4/15, 10:33 AM
#8
No gains in a non aspirated engine. You will se some gains in a Aspirated engine for the cooling effect of E85. If you want more power and better Mileage go straight gas. As WhiteBird00 said there is less BTU power in E85. My Suburban gets almost 25 MPG on real Gas E90 Gets around 19. E85 would be terrible.
Last edited by Jazzman442; 5/4/15 at 10:35 AM.
5/4/15, 11:38 AM
#9
Cobra R Member
You guys need to head over to SVT performance. People running E85 on N/A engines to get to +500whp. people running it on boosted.
don't run E85 stock, it'll eat the injectors. Thats why people switch to atleast ID1000's
Yes you will consume more, but its a higher octane rating. Also lowers the chances of knock i believe.
don't run E85 stock, it'll eat the injectors. Thats why people switch to atleast ID1000's
Yes you will consume more, but its a higher octane rating. Also lowers the chances of knock i believe.
5/4/15, 12:29 PM
#10
Mach 1 Member
You guys need to head over to SVT performance. People running E85 on N/A engines to get to +500whp. people running it on boosted.
don't run E85 stock, it'll eat the injectors. Thats why people switch to atleast ID1000's
Yes you will consume more, but its a higher octane rating. Also lowers the chances of knock i believe.
don't run E85 stock, it'll eat the injectors. Thats why people switch to atleast ID1000's
Yes you will consume more, but its a higher octane rating. Also lowers the chances of knock i believe.
Straight ethanol has an octane rating of 110.
Again I say, there is more power available with ethanol when you compare the specific energies of it against gasoline...specific energy is all the engine cares about because you are going to optimize the jetting and ignition timing to maximize (Capitalize) on the available energy. Yes, you will use a lot more ethanol than straight gas...almost two times more (Ethanol stoich is 7.3:1 and 87-93 is 14.7:1). It's not accurate to compare fuel energies and potential power based on the fuel economy of one vehicle when the two different fuels are run at different times. Why? See the optimization note above. It's very difficult, if not impossible to optimize an engine to run peak on two different fuels without a very complex mapping and fuel detection system.
I hadn't heard that stock injectors have issues with E85. This surprises me since they, and the entire fuel system, should be designed to stand up to the corrosive and "Dry" effects of ethanol since it's in nearly every gallon of pump gas produced these days.
John
Last edited by Horspla; 5/4/15 at 12:32 PM.
5/4/15, 01:56 PM
#11
GT Member
You will see gains on a NA Coyote if it is tuned for it with the timing curve being more aggressive.
I have many friends running E85, I don't want to deal with trying to find, even though most all Holiday stations in MN have it.
It's a good performance pump fuel. Just needs to be used in a correct way to be beneficial.
I have many friends running E85, I don't want to deal with trying to find, even though most all Holiday stations in MN have it.
It's a good performance pump fuel. Just needs to be used in a correct way to be beneficial.
Last edited by Turbo302; 5/4/15 at 01:57 PM.
5/4/15, 08:22 PM
#12
Shelby GT500 Member
You'll need to change a few things to take full advantage of e85 conversion. It's not simply pumping different fuel and seeing a dramatic increase in power. A specific tune will also be necessary.
5/5/15, 07:17 AM
#13
Cobra R Member
The computer might learn to run the engine on E85 but you won't get the benifits of it without the proper tune.
5/5/15, 07:49 AM
#14
Mach 1 Member
The standard 5.0 will not accept fuel containing more than 15% ethanol without major issues. The engine management system needs to be flex fuel capable to run E gas in concentrations above 15%. When not equipped the flex fuel system, it will not learn/adapt.
John
5/5/15, 09:53 AM
#15
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Simply looking at a fuels BTU content by volume does not give an accurate picture of it's potential. To determine whether or not it is superior or inferior to another it's best to calculate the specific energy of both fuels and compare those numbers. When that's done, you will quickly see ethanol is superior.
This was my point from the start. Ethanol has less energy but can be used to produce more engine power (by using more fuel) when the engine is designed and tuned for it, especially with the higher compression ratios and ignition timing advance afforded by the higher octane. But just filling up a stock gasoline car with E85 fuel will not gain any power and risks serious damage.
5/5/15, 01:34 PM
#16
Shelby GT500 Member
There's a guy that was on here at one time that either runs E85 or ran it in his Shelby and is familiar with the necessary steps to convert a stock gasoline engine to run E85. Derek Venable
5/5/15, 04:31 PM
#17
Mach 1 Member
No, ethanol has less energy than gasoline no matter how you want to measure. Your specific energy measurement is about 45 megajoule per kilogram for gasoline and only about 26 MJ/kg for ethanol. Or how about energy density... 32 megajoule per liter for gas, 21 MJ/l for ethanol. Perhaps we should look at BTU... 116,000 BTU/gallon for gasoline, 76,300 BTU/gallon for ethanol. These are all from the US Department of Energy's own figures.
This was my point from the start. Ethanol has less energy but can be used to produce more engine power (by using more fuel) when the engine is designed and tuned for it, especially with the higher compression ratios and ignition timing advance afforded by the higher octane. But just filling up a stock gasoline car with E85 fuel will not gain any power and risks serious damage.
This was my point from the start. Ethanol has less energy but can be used to produce more engine power (by using more fuel) when the engine is designed and tuned for it, especially with the higher compression ratios and ignition timing advance afforded by the higher octane. But just filling up a stock gasoline car with E85 fuel will not gain any power and risks serious damage.
Gasoline: 20723 / 14.7 = SE of 1407
Ethanol: 12872 / 7.3 = SE of 1763
At stoichiometric air/fuel ratios, the ethanol’s SE value is around 20% greater than gasoline.
We’re all in agreement that in order to capitalize on ethanol’s additional heat energy and inherently higher octane rating the fuel and ignition maps need to be changed from their current pump gas mapping. Everything else being equal in the engine, ethanol will deliver more power. It’s science and chemistry. Case closed.
John
5/5/15, 05:04 PM
#18
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Sorry, your logic is as faulty as your numbers...
The specific energy of gasoline is 45 MJ/kg which is 19,346 BTU/lb. The specific energy of ethanol is 26 MJ/kg which is 11,178 BTU/lb. The definition of specific energy does not include air/fuel mixture anywhere in it. But even if it did, the actual ratios still show ethanol loses (partly because the actual stoichiometric ratio of ethanol is 9.0 not 7.3)...
gasoline: 19346 / 14.7 = 1316
ethanol: 11178 / 9.0 = 1242
Sorry, it's simply physics and chemistry.
The specific energy of gasoline is 45 MJ/kg which is 19,346 BTU/lb. The specific energy of ethanol is 26 MJ/kg which is 11,178 BTU/lb. The definition of specific energy does not include air/fuel mixture anywhere in it. But even if it did, the actual ratios still show ethanol loses (partly because the actual stoichiometric ratio of ethanol is 9.0 not 7.3)...
gasoline: 19346 / 14.7 = 1316
ethanol: 11178 / 9.0 = 1242
Sorry, it's simply physics and chemistry.
5/6/15, 07:27 AM
#19
Mach 1 Member
Sorry, your logic is as faulty as your numbers...
The specific energy of gasoline is 45 MJ/kg which is 19,346 BTU/lb. The specific energy of ethanol is 26 MJ/kg which is 11,178 BTU/lb. The definition of specific energy does not include air/fuel mixture anywhere in it. But even if it did, the actual ratios still show ethanol loses (partly because the actual stoichiometric ratio of ethanol is 9.0 not 7.3)...
gasoline: 19346 / 14.7 = 1316
ethanol: 11178 / 9.0 = 1242
Sorry, it's simply physics and chemistry.
The specific energy of gasoline is 45 MJ/kg which is 19,346 BTU/lb. The specific energy of ethanol is 26 MJ/kg which is 11,178 BTU/lb. The definition of specific energy does not include air/fuel mixture anywhere in it. But even if it did, the actual ratios still show ethanol loses (partly because the actual stoichiometric ratio of ethanol is 9.0 not 7.3)...
gasoline: 19346 / 14.7 = 1316
ethanol: 11178 / 9.0 = 1242
Sorry, it's simply physics and chemistry.
As for the ethanol stoich, you are correct, it is 9.0:1. I was working from memory which is always a dangerous thing, at least for me. Don’t know where 7.3 came from other than dead lean methanol.
I have a fuel science book at home somewhere (Which I’m still searching for) that describes the SE formula I used. I did a quick google search and found this which uses the same formula.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-1304-what-is-nitromethane-anyway/
The fuel data I used came from WWW.afdc.energy.gov.
These were the sources for my information yesterday.
If you would please, tell me where either the calculations, the formula or the base data I’m using are going astray.
John
5/6/15, 07:38 AM
#20
If you want a full blown racing car then go Ethanol. Hell Go nitro LOL. Talk to anyone that has a boat non E engine car or truck has a tractor or lawn equipment and they will tell you ethanol sucks and it sucks big. it is way to corosive. I live in Florida and the boat industry is in bad shape. There are tons of boat owners spending millions on replacing there fuel tanks engines etc. Ihave a friend that has a small engine shop and he is making a killing on repairs. It plain sucks. All of my cars get worse gas millage on the crap. So again why why why...