Brembos, worth it?
3/18/10, 06:59 PM
#41
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I would tend to think that the stock rotors would wear out more rapidly, due to their cheaper compositions. IMO anyways....maybe "montreal stang" who does race driving at the very beautiful Tremblant circuit, can chime in on this one.
3/18/10, 07:22 PM
#42
Team Mustang Source
It varies from one summer tire to the next. All I have for several of my cars are summer only performance tires, and I often drive them in temps down to 25°F in the winter, as long as the roads are clear of snow, ice, and salt, and the forecast doesn't call for any bad weather. They do ok as long as it is dry, but of course they don't have nearly the dry grip they do in the warmer months.
What I've found is that the higher performance the tire is (ultimate warm weather dry grip), the worse they do in the winter, and the more likely the tire will suffer from being driven or even just stored in cold temps. Because of that, I always bring inside the house any relatively fresh race tires and my higher performance summer street tires for the winter. In the past it has been as many as 3 or 4 sets. Drives the wife nuts sometimes, maybe she won't mind me spending the money for insulation and heat in my garage after a few more years of this
What I've found is that the higher performance the tire is (ultimate warm weather dry grip), the worse they do in the winter, and the more likely the tire will suffer from being driven or even just stored in cold temps. Because of that, I always bring inside the house any relatively fresh race tires and my higher performance summer street tires for the winter. In the past it has been as many as 3 or 4 sets. Drives the wife nuts sometimes, maybe she won't mind me spending the money for insulation and heat in my garage after a few more years of this
I agree. I've had summer only tires on my Mustang for 4 years now with no problems in the winter cold. I work at night so it's regularly below 40* when I drive. As long as you don't drive stupid you should be fine. They also blow the panties off of all season tires in the rain!
3/18/10, 07:52 PM
#43
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3/18/10, 08:11 PM
#44
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13.2" is to small for a 3600lb vehicle that may be tracked. My 997 is 13" but there is no weight on the front of the car and the car weights in at just 3200lbs. The Mustang weighs as much as an E92 M3 and that car has 14.2" front rotors.
If driven equally, what brake pads will wear out quicker? Stock or Brembos?
3/19/10, 10:05 AM
#46
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Dave
Last edited by Dave07997S; 3/19/10 at 10:07 AM.
3/19/10, 06:18 PM
#47
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I don't have extensive experience tracking the Mustang, but I have taken mine to three different road courses, so I do have some experience to share. Here's what I learned about the S197 with stock brakes on a race track.
My first time to the track was at Lime Rock in CT, which is a 1.5 mile road course with a lot of elevation change. The stock brakes (and pads) did fine here, because there is only one heavy braking area on the whole course, at Turn 1. The rest of the lap is just little taps on the brake to settle the balance of the car, so the brakes cool by the time you need them again at Turn 1 (slowing from about 120 mph to less than 60 mph).
My second time was at Loudon in NH, which is another 1.5 mile road course (that shares part of the NASCAR oval). This course is much slower speed than Lime Rock but requires much heavier braking - at least 3 HARD brake applications each lap. The S197 stock brakes definitely fade here, and you notice it after only 2 or 3 laps, where the brakes just don't work as good as the first lap. This track convinced me that I had to at least replace the pads.
My third time was last July at Watkins Glen in NY, a 3.5 mile road course with staggering elevation changes. This is a super high speed course, and I had mine up to 130 mph on the back straight. I went to Watkins Glen after upgrading the pads all around with Hawk HPS, and fresh brake fluid. The fade was not noticeable like at Loudon, but, braking from a much higher speed resulted in my brake pedal almost going to the floor at one point! That was really scary. I almost ran into the back of a Lamborghini, but luckily just had enough brake to avoid it. From talking to many people afterward, it was not really the brakes, but rather the brake fluid - it boiled. It was the OEM DOT 3 fluid, and on a track, you really need DOT 4 high temperature fluid, like ATE Super Blue.
I read on the Camaro forum about a guy taking a new SS and prepping it for racing. He took the car in stock form on a track for a baseline test, and those Brembos failed after some hard laps, just like mine, with the pedal going to the floor. He replaced the fluid with DOT 4 and had no issues after that.
So, the conclusion is, Brembos or not, if you're going to track the car and want to brake seriously hard, you're going to need to use high temp racing fluid in the brake lines or you're asking for trouble.
PS - If I was to get the 2011 5.0, which I plan to, I am definitely getting the Brembo brakes. It's one of those things that you'd rather have and not need, rather than need and not have.
My first time to the track was at Lime Rock in CT, which is a 1.5 mile road course with a lot of elevation change. The stock brakes (and pads) did fine here, because there is only one heavy braking area on the whole course, at Turn 1. The rest of the lap is just little taps on the brake to settle the balance of the car, so the brakes cool by the time you need them again at Turn 1 (slowing from about 120 mph to less than 60 mph).
My second time was at Loudon in NH, which is another 1.5 mile road course (that shares part of the NASCAR oval). This course is much slower speed than Lime Rock but requires much heavier braking - at least 3 HARD brake applications each lap. The S197 stock brakes definitely fade here, and you notice it after only 2 or 3 laps, where the brakes just don't work as good as the first lap. This track convinced me that I had to at least replace the pads.
My third time was last July at Watkins Glen in NY, a 3.5 mile road course with staggering elevation changes. This is a super high speed course, and I had mine up to 130 mph on the back straight. I went to Watkins Glen after upgrading the pads all around with Hawk HPS, and fresh brake fluid. The fade was not noticeable like at Loudon, but, braking from a much higher speed resulted in my brake pedal almost going to the floor at one point! That was really scary. I almost ran into the back of a Lamborghini, but luckily just had enough brake to avoid it. From talking to many people afterward, it was not really the brakes, but rather the brake fluid - it boiled. It was the OEM DOT 3 fluid, and on a track, you really need DOT 4 high temperature fluid, like ATE Super Blue.
I read on the Camaro forum about a guy taking a new SS and prepping it for racing. He took the car in stock form on a track for a baseline test, and those Brembos failed after some hard laps, just like mine, with the pedal going to the floor. He replaced the fluid with DOT 4 and had no issues after that.
So, the conclusion is, Brembos or not, if you're going to track the car and want to brake seriously hard, you're going to need to use high temp racing fluid in the brake lines or you're asking for trouble.
PS - If I was to get the 2011 5.0, which I plan to, I am definitely getting the Brembo brakes. It's one of those things that you'd rather have and not need, rather than need and not have.
Last edited by wjones14; 3/19/10 at 06:23 PM.
3/19/10, 07:58 PM
#48
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I don't have extensive experience tracking the Mustang, but I have taken mine to three different road courses, so I do have some experience to share. Here's what I learned about the S197 with stock brakes on a race track.
My first time to the track was at Lime Rock in CT, which is a 1.5 mile road course with a lot of elevation change. The stock brakes (and pads) did fine here, because there is only one heavy braking area on the whole course, at Turn 1. The rest of the lap is just little taps on the brake to settle the balance of the car, so the brakes cool by the time you need them again at Turn 1 (slowing from about 120 mph to less than 60 mph).
My second time was at Loudon in NH, which is another 1.5 mile road course (that shares part of the NASCAR oval). This course is much slower speed than Lime Rock but requires much heavier braking - at least 3 HARD brake applications each lap. The S197 stock brakes definitely fade here, and you notice it after only 2 or 3 laps, where the brakes just don't work as good as the first lap. This track convinced me that I had to at least replace the pads.
My third time was last July at Watkins Glen in NY, a 3.5 mile road course with staggering elevation changes. This is a super high speed course, and I had mine up to 130 mph on the back straight. I went to Watkins Glen after upgrading the pads all around with Hawk HPS, and fresh brake fluid. The fade was not noticeable like at Loudon, but, braking from a much higher speed resulted in my brake pedal almost going to the floor at one point! That was really scary. I almost ran into the back of a Lamborghini, but luckily just had enough brake to avoid it. From talking to many people afterward, it was not really the brakes, but rather the brake fluid - it boiled. It was the OEM DOT 3 fluid, and on a track, you really need DOT 4 high temperature fluid, like ATE Super Blue.
I read on the Camaro forum about a guy taking a new SS and prepping it for racing. He took the car in stock form on a track for a baseline test, and those Brembos failed after some hard laps, just like mine, with the pedal going to the floor. He replaced the fluid with DOT 4 and had no issues after that.
So, the conclusion is, Brembos or not, if you're going to track the car and want to brake seriously hard, you're going to need to use high temp racing fluid in the brake lines or you're asking for trouble.
PS - If I was to get the 2011 5.0, which I plan to, I am definitely getting the Brembo brakes. It's one of those things that you'd rather have and not need, rather than need and not have.
My first time to the track was at Lime Rock in CT, which is a 1.5 mile road course with a lot of elevation change. The stock brakes (and pads) did fine here, because there is only one heavy braking area on the whole course, at Turn 1. The rest of the lap is just little taps on the brake to settle the balance of the car, so the brakes cool by the time you need them again at Turn 1 (slowing from about 120 mph to less than 60 mph).
My second time was at Loudon in NH, which is another 1.5 mile road course (that shares part of the NASCAR oval). This course is much slower speed than Lime Rock but requires much heavier braking - at least 3 HARD brake applications each lap. The S197 stock brakes definitely fade here, and you notice it after only 2 or 3 laps, where the brakes just don't work as good as the first lap. This track convinced me that I had to at least replace the pads.
My third time was last July at Watkins Glen in NY, a 3.5 mile road course with staggering elevation changes. This is a super high speed course, and I had mine up to 130 mph on the back straight. I went to Watkins Glen after upgrading the pads all around with Hawk HPS, and fresh brake fluid. The fade was not noticeable like at Loudon, but, braking from a much higher speed resulted in my brake pedal almost going to the floor at one point! That was really scary. I almost ran into the back of a Lamborghini, but luckily just had enough brake to avoid it. From talking to many people afterward, it was not really the brakes, but rather the brake fluid - it boiled. It was the OEM DOT 3 fluid, and on a track, you really need DOT 4 high temperature fluid, like ATE Super Blue.
I read on the Camaro forum about a guy taking a new SS and prepping it for racing. He took the car in stock form on a track for a baseline test, and those Brembos failed after some hard laps, just like mine, with the pedal going to the floor. He replaced the fluid with DOT 4 and had no issues after that.
So, the conclusion is, Brembos or not, if you're going to track the car and want to brake seriously hard, you're going to need to use high temp racing fluid in the brake lines or you're asking for trouble.
PS - If I was to get the 2011 5.0, which I plan to, I am definitely getting the Brembo brakes. It's one of those things that you'd rather have and not need, rather than need and not have.
Nothing gets you to pucker factor 10 than feeling your brake pedal go to the floor and it ain't stopping. I had a 98 Mustang Cobra with the 13" brakes and did a couple of events at the Streets of Willow and I would get 3-4 good laps and the brakes would start to fade.
Dave
3/19/10, 08:58 PM
#49
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I would like to retract this statement due to what I just read here: http://www.insideline.com/features/t...vs-summer.html
Great find and thanks for posting!Having dedicated winter and summer wheels and tires is an easy decision for me because of where I live but I do feel for you guys that don't quite live far enough south for 365 days of summer. It would be a tough decision (meaning all-seasons vs. summer tires) if you live somewhere that may or may not see a few snow days a year and experiences a cold rainy season and your car is a DD. I've also read many a post that said "the OEM tires were great so I'm going to stick with the same ones"...as an auto enthusiast that makes me cry a little inside. FWIW here is my .02...
With a few rare exceptions (TP II or Brembo package) OEM tires are heavily biased towards cost and are essentially garbage. All season tires are a compromise in all seasons. Tires are the single most important element in how your car handles and feels on the road. Do the math.
...and to tie this back into the OP, the tire question is somewhat related to the brake question. If you are satisfied with your typical OEM tires and would buy the same replacements then you are probably not so discerning a driver that you need an upgraded brake package....and there is nothing wrong with that. You drive a stylish car that sounds great, looks fantastic cruising down main street and is a genuine piece of auto lore, just enjoy yourself!
However, being aware and experienced in the difference in handling dynamics between the Eagle RS-A and the Eagle F1 (for example), to me summer tires and the Brembo brake package are essential options on a new Mustang.
3/19/10, 09:29 PM
#50
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With a few rare exceptions (TP II or Brembo package) OEM tires are heavily biased towards cost and are essentially garbage. All season tires are a compromise in all seasons. Tires are the single most important element in how your car handles and feels on the road. Do the math.
However, being aware and experienced in the difference in handling dynamics between the Eagle RS-A and the Eagle F1 (for example), to me summer tires and the Brembo brake package are essential options on a new Mustang.
However, being aware and experienced in the difference in handling dynamics between the Eagle RS-A and the Eagle F1 (for example), to me summer tires and the Brembo brake package are essential options on a new Mustang.
If the car is a daily driver where you get occasional snow in the winter and you're never taking it to the track, all-seasons make sense. They make sense if you live in a place where storing the winter/summer tires/wheels is a hassle. But if you're thinking about hitting the track even just once, you really need summer performance tires. And even if you're not hitting the track, the true enthusiast will appreciate the superior summer tires in warm weather.
3/19/10, 09:46 PM
#51
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Only reason I was hesitant is because even though it never snows here it does rain. Now that I know summer tires perform better than all seasons in rain I'm all set
3/19/10, 10:17 PM
#52
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Summer tires all the way, ftw! Now the problem lies in which ones to chose...my research has shown:
-money no object but still a streetable tire = Bridgestone Potenza RE-11 (beat the Michelin PS2 in recent testing)
-money dependant, 90% of the performance at 50% the cost = Sumitomo HTZ R III (apparently the HTZ and HTZ II were garbage but the III is a great tire)
3/21/10, 11:10 AM
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3/21/10, 12:32 PM
#54
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Here's a question for the 19' wheels. What are the tires going to cost for those to replace? I ask because I just got a set of 4 for my GT with 17s and it was around 650 from the dealer. And if you think thats expensive, Costco (where I work, mind you) quoted me over 800. So how bad a dent is 19s going to make?
3/21/10, 12:39 PM
#55
GTR Member
Here's a question for the 19' wheels. What are the tires going to cost for those to replace? I ask because I just got a set of 4 for my GT with 17s and it was around 650 from the dealer. And if you think thats expensive, Costco (where I work, mind you) quoted me over 800. So how bad a dent is 19s going to make?
If you look around some you can get them for quite a bit less.
The 19's are pricey if you buy the OEM tires, other brands can be had for less.
3/24/10, 06:10 PM
#58
V6 Member
I am not a fan of the Brembo wheels either but I like the rest of the package. I went to the car show this past weekend in Atlanta and talked to the Ford guys at the booth and they even got me on the phone with an engineer in Detroit to answer more of my questions. He told me that most likely there would be more wheel options for the Brembos in job #2. Take it for what its worth nothing official but (2) Ford guys giving me the info nonetheless.
