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My brother's engine has been a source of constant problems even after a rebuild shortly after he got the car and I suspect it might have something to do with this very odd "flaking" I'm seeing on the engine block now that we've torn into it. There's a bunch of metal in the oil, a rod bearing has spun and oil is burning (piston rings are probably screwed). I would like to know if any of you think this is a block manufacturing defect or what the heck is going on here because I've never seen anything like this before.
The following video shows what is happening clearly. I'm barely touching the block with the screwdriver and the pieces are just falling off. These aren't parts of the block that are in contact with any moving parts so it's not like the metal shavings in the oil could have worn this area down. There are many of these brittle areas around the block that flake off with the touch of a screwdriver, it's not just these 2 spots. Please have a look and let me know what you think:
We are trying to decide how to approach this situation with Ford as the motor is completely toast. I'm hoping this is an unusual engine block manufacturing defect and we can push Ford to replace the engine even though it is out of warranty but I'd like to know if you guys think there are other possible causes/excuses they can use as to why this is happening other than a manufacturing defect. Can they claim that this is normal and doesn't cause any problems under normal operating conditions? That seems like nonsense to me - engines vibrate and such and this seems way too brittle.
Any advice on how to approach this for maximum chance of success is appreciated, as well as input into whether I have a shot at getting Ford to replace the motor.
We've also searched far and wide to see if we could find any posts by anyone else with an issue like this and this is the only thing remotely similar that we could find: https://www.thedieselstop.com/thread...A2r0cabuKcaN60
That motor got replaced apparently but it was also under warranty.
There is metal bloody everywhere now that the rod bearing has spun. I'm not sure what proportion of it is from the block v.s. the rod bearing v.s. other parts of the motor that are also surely messed up now. I just dropped the oil pan and noticed this block flaking happening.
This is going to sound harsh, and I'm sorry. But it must be said, IMO.
You are using a tool steel type screwdriver on a cast aluminum block. You are, I can see, using plenty of pressure to produce the chips in question. Previous to the screwdriver application, the aluminum is not flaking. It may be slightly 'flashed' on the edge of a corner, but not flaking. The first one is tiny and would not stand a chance against the screwdriver, and there was three decently forced attempts to get it to come off before it did. The second one you are pushing several times with great enough force to produce a rather large slip, which convinces me the aluminum is just fine until attacked by a screwdriver in this manner. The third chip was banged against and then twisted off, that's not an inconsiderable amount of force being applied.
Again, steel versus aluminium. Definitely the aluminum is going to lose, and it won't take much force with that screwdriver to damage it. You are also prying against edges, that's mechanical advantage for the win. You're just shearing off edges. And as much force as you're using for these examples, there's no way they just came off.
Also, I noticed the dipstick, and the tube it was in. That... didn't look very serviced. Although it's not a well oiled part, truth, so maybe I let that slide.
Short version: A Ford, or any, engineer sees this and your claim is not going to stand up anywhere.
You just got a bad bearing. It's out of warranty. These things happen. That's why the warranty period ends when it does. Trust me, I'm the guy doin' this stupidness, and I would LOVE for Ford to own up to their timing chain tensioner design being a problem and swapping out my motor or whatever. Oh well.
As far as your other example.. out of ALL these 5.0 engines, yours are the only two? Not gonna lie, that's just unlucky is all. Even if your block is actually flaking away, which I do not actually see happening. You're working pretty hard to get that aluminum to come off, looks like to me.
BUT.
Don't give up, and don't listen to me. I actually believe you. I'm just saying what I see. Get your oil, if you still have it, analyzed by Blackstone, which will definitely tell you if there's aluminium in it. If there is, and there's a WHOLE LOT of it, you may just have a case. If there's not, you just got unlucky for whatever reason.
Dunno if that helps, but outside in, that's what I see. Good luck to ya.
That wasn't harsh at all. I posted this to get people's opinions, not just to have everyone agree with me!
I don't know why the dip stick looks like that in the video and I don't know if that's normal or maybe it just looks funny in the video. The engine was fully rebuilt a couple years ago and had oil changes right on schedule every time since then, so servicing definitely isn't an issue.
Maybe it looks like I'm using more force than I am in the video, I don't know, and at some points maybe I'm using more force than at other times, but I can flake off pieces with very little force, by holding a long screwdriver at the handle and not even "prying" per se. It's hard to depict on the video just how easily the pieces fall off.
The car was fully rebuilt with new bearings 2 years ago. The car was not driven hard and maintenance was done religiously. Yet, for some reason, it started to rapidly lose oil out of nowhere after running great for 2 years. The oil wasn't leaking out so the only other option I see is that it was getting burned, which must mean the piston rings are messed up. That could be because of the engine block flaking but I suppose it may also be due to the bearing starting to fall apart. It could have all happened at around the same time.
I'm fully open to the idea that this is normal and we are just screwed, haha, so don't worry about my feelings That said, I've built aluminum engines before and never seen areas so fragile and brittle. I'm not super experienced though so I don't know. It was coming off so easily that at first I thought it was oily metal flakes from the bearing sticking to the block. The master engine tech at our local Ford dealership said he said he's never seen that before either and he seemed perplexed. They want me to bring the car in to have a first hand look before making any conclusive statements though, obviously. I'm just hoping to get some other opinions and advice first to help me approach this the right way.
Great advice regarding getting the oil analyzed, we will definitely do that first and see what comes up!!
In terms of how easily the block flakes - I can definitely use my fingernails to break flakes off the block in some areas, so it's not a steel vs aluminum issue. I'd be fairly surprised if this is normal. I used the screwdriver because it made for a clear video as it didn't block the view of the camera like my hand would and it's easy to see the flakes come off and stick to the tip.
One last thing - "Previous to the screwdriver application, the aluminum is not flaking" - maybe I'm being dense but I'm not sure what you mean by that. If it flaked, it would be in the oil, so how would you know from looking at that video? All I know is that some areas are brittle and weak enough that my fingernails can scrape flakes off without coming close to breaking a nail.
Regarding the screwdriver test, a bit more on it: In the video you are working on the edges, and that's fine, but you can impart much more force on them corners without much power than you can a flat surface. Even with a fingernail, if there's a bit of flashing to catch, and how good your fingernail is. Just physics and leverage for you. That you can peel off a bit of corner is more what I'm referring to. Take a chip off a flat face/surface that doesn't matter, like inside the hollow of the block like that and I'll be more convinced the block is brittle, but it might also need to be a huge flake, not a tiny chip, to be honest.
Overall, what what you're describing is called embrittlement. The property of the aluminum changes to where its structurally unsound due to its becoming... well, brittle. Elemental Mercury or Gallium in contact with unoxidized Aluminum can amalgamate with the Aluminum and cause it to really get radically changed:
That's but one way for embrittlement to happen, there's others.
I can't honestly say I know what's going on if the fingernail can do it, except flashing (small bits off an edge/corner). That's... well, I'd love to see more. And in more areas. Where the crank caps are, the hollow of the engine, even the oil pan gasket mating surface of the block... If the block is that brittle, where a flat surface can be scraped away, and 'multi layers', then something very strange happened to that block and you need to toss it. Unfortunate as that news would be.
I'd love to also see these same tests on a second Coyote block. For comparison. It would not surprise me if the same test did the same thing in the same areas. But at this point, it probably wouldn't surprise me if the tests had different results too.
Yes, that's 8 different threads here about aluminum hoods. I especially like the second one, post 18, where even the McLaren isn't immune... nor will they help. Which is why I'd not be surprised with any results. Aluminum is... weird. Great stuff, sure, you can suspend a whole car with it, make a whole car with it, so why not a block?
This might be why you don't use it. It can be compromised rather nastily? One wonders if a jilted for whatever reason person scratched your block and put gallium on it just to mess it up... Nah...
IDK. I just don't see Ford owning up to a problem, overall. Too many out there not having this issue, and it's not the original build of that block to boot.
It might help to describe/investigate fully what was done for the rebuild, might reveal something that would be an 'aha!' moment. Other than that, oil and filter analysis and if you're still worried about the block, toss it.
/...and now I'm gonna go write a novel about some guy who gets murdered by a former lover, but its covered up by being a weird accident because the car's suspension failed all at once, and they find traces of mercury and gallium all over the suspension, engine block, aluminum chassis... maybe it's a Z4 or something...
That is a picture of three pieces of flaked off aluminum from... somewhere. I know not exactly from whence it came, but they wound up being thus:
Bottom one was from the oil pan, scraped out with all the plastic bits from the exploded right chain guide.
The middle one was from the oil pick up tube screen, scraped out with all the plastic bits... I said that already, right? Yeah...
And the top teensy one is a flake that happened when I pressed on the middle one.
So... I don't know what to think, honestly. I find it very strange, to be honest, that I'd see these just after participating in this post.
There were only the two (now three) in the entire thing. I tried to do the fingernail test, no result. Weren't any flaking happening to my aluminum block. I wasn't gonna do the screwdriver, sorry. I kind of wanted to, but I was really in a controlled hurry to get the K member back up under the engine because I trusted my rigging... to a point. That oil pan had to be done and the k member back up in there TODAY. Well, yesterday, as I write this, CST.
So there ya go. Not sure what that means, but... yeah. Food or something for thought...?
1/16/20, 04:54 PM
That said, I've built aluminum engines before and never seen areas so fragile and brittle. I'm not super experienced though so I don't know. It was coming off so easily that at first I thought it was oily metal flakes from the bearing sticking to the block. The master engine tech at our local Ford dealership said he said he's never seen that before either and he seemed perplexed. They want me to bring the car in to have a first hand look before making any conclusive statements though, obviously. I'm just hoping to get some other opinions and advice first to help me approach this the right way.
Which is why I'd not be surprised with any results. Aluminum is... weird. Great stuff, sure, you can suspend a whole car with it, make a whole car with it, so why not a block?
One wonders if a jilted for whatever reason person scratched your block and put gallium on it just to mess it up... Nah...
