Zastava_101

I wouldn't go that far; I would buy pretty much every vehicle in Ford's lineup, but only if I can get it for 20+% cheaper than Toyota/Honda - considering I'm gonna lose that much (or probably more) compared to Toyota/Honda when I try to resale it 5 years later.

MARZ

You can spin it however you want, but my posts are in the context of this thread -- your thread. Do you remember saying...

"Why am I saying all this - because there are plenty of people in the USA who had the similar experience and are little afraid to go back to the Big 3 from proven Toyotas and Hondas."

Based on the "plenty of people" and their "experience" with the supposed crappy quality of the Big 3, the Asian transplants and their mystique of invincibility would own the top-selling spots in every vehicle category in the USA. They don't. Your logic is flawed, and I explained why earlier.

As an aside, I'd be curious to see how easy it's been, traditionally, for Asian auto manufacturers to have a presence in the United States vs. American manufacturers in Asia. It's not always apples-to-apples as trade agreements, tariffs and other barriers differ from country-to-country, depending on whose products are being imported. Also, Asia is full of emerging markets; the huge demand for vehicles there has only come to fruition recently. The U.S. market has been significant for how long now?

In your opinion. I happen to think that Asian vehicles, regardless of where they're designed, are among the ugliest available today. And why would Ford waste significant time, effort and capital on a work van?

Zastava_101

I gotta leave for work in about 10 minutes, so just quick few points IMO.

- Americans are known as big patriots. And many of them can have the biggest POS - they will still buy a Big 3 vehicle simply because it's made in the USA.
So Tundra is never gonna outsell F-Series, Silverado or Ram (although Camry is already outselling both Silverado and Ram).
So it's not realistic to expect that Toyota will have the best seller in absolutely each segment.

- Ford should "waste" some time, effort and capital in a work van because it's a big profit maker. I'm guessing that Ford make more profit on E-Series than on a Focus, since Ford always made little or no money on smaller cars in the USA.
So with E-Series, I'm not expecting a major redesign every 5-8 years like the rest of the lineup, but it would be nice if they would update it every now and then (E-Series hasn't been updated since 1992). It would definitely sell better.

Flagstang

its a crappy work van.. they buy it because they need it to haul stuff. I think buying because its american is a better reason then "i think it gets good mpg and will last a long time".

MARZ

So, which is it? Are US buyers leery of the Big 3, or are they stupid and uninformed, willing to buy any POS offered by an American company? Do you have any numbers or proof to back up your claims, or is that just more opinion and conjecture offered up as fact? Is it your assertion that the only reason Ford has vehicles in the US that outsell competing Toyota models is solely because of patriotism? IMO, America's buying public is wiser than you give us credit for. Like anyone else across the globe, we want the best combination of -- regardless of brand -- style, performance, value, resale, and anything else I'm missing, so the blind patriotism (read: dumb American) rhetoric is tired and just a cop-out in my opinion. The Korean automakers will back me up.

That's easy for you to say, but you aren't an executive at Ford or any auto manufacturer for that matter. I have a feeling they've done the cost / benefit, ROI and market research needed to determine which vehicles require time, effort and capital (I'm betting the new F-150 and Mustang are receiving a lot of attention). If Ford can make money on an E-Series that is the result of capital and engineering spent on their Super Duty, then who are we to argue with that?

Boomer

What's funny.
I saw the title of the thread... I knew exactly who started it without even looking.

It would have been a sucker bet.

Zastava_101

I'm just saying that many people in the USA buy Fords because of the patriotism. They're not stupid and/or uninformed; they just wanna a vehicle made in the USA. There is nothing wrong with that.
That doesn't mean that each and every Ford sold in the USA was bought because of the patriotism. There are people who don't care about resale value and reliability; to them design, features, fun to drive and similar factors are more important.
However, to most people reliability and resale value come first. That's the only reason why Camry and Corolla sell so well. Let's face it - nobody buys a Toyota because of the looks or fun to drive factor. In the most recent comparison test, Motor Trend had nothing but negative things to say about Camry. Yet, 315,000 were sold by the end of the September (only F-Series was the better seller).

As much as people want to criticize Toyota, they know how to build a good product that most of the people actually buy.
It doesn't matter that Mazda wins most of the comparison test, because when it comes to buying - Toyota is still the king.

That is true - for most of the buying public. That's why Toyota sells so many Camrys and Corollas.
But once again, there is a different type of a buying public, that's very loyal to the specific manufacturer no matter what (and since Ford has been selling cars in the USA for almost 110 years, they will have more loyal customers than Toyota, which is an import).
Take truck market for an example. Truck guys are known as very loyal no matter what.
Do you remember by any chance when the new Toyota Tundra came out in 2007? It was the best truck on the market period. I love my F-150, but Tundra was light years ahead of F-150 back then. It was bigger, stronger and Tundra's 5.7L was running circles around F-150's 5.4L.
Hell, my F-150 V8 made only 231 hp - less than Tundra V6 made during the same year.
In the end it didn't matter. F-150 still outsold Tundra by a wide margin ...

Fair enough. But then IMO nobody should be criticizing GM and Chrysler over the choices they have made over the past few years. You know, Government Motors and all that crap. Since none of us were executives at GM/Chrysler and none of us know exactly what they've went through.

StangMahn

As did I. There's really no getting anywhere with the man. It's European or ****!



Zoran, the Ford recalls were on just a couple models, mostly the Explorer, and for things that weren't totally Ford's fault. The Toyota recalls spanned pretty much every model they have. Company wide issues and problems, how can you say they're decent reliable models?

cdynaco

Yep. Same song, same dance, same ol Serbian/Wisconsin steamer... rofl



.

Zastava_101

As far as I know, Toyota is not a European company.

It makes no difference whether is one or ten. According to the study, 271 people died as a result of Firestone tires on the Explorer and 37 people died as a result of faulty brakes on Toyotas.

So yeah, you're correct, Toyota's case was much worse.

It was Ford's fault as much as brake pedals was Toyota's fault (since it wasn't Toyota that was making them - CTS Automotive Products did).

By the way ...
On February 8, 2011, the NHTSA, in collaboration with NASA, released its findings into the investigation on the Toyota drive-by-wire throttle system. After a 10 month search, NASA and NHTSA scientists found no electronic defect in Toyota vehicles. Driver error or pedal misapplication was found responsible for most of the incidents.

This is just in ...

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/10/29/f...orts-reliabil/

Compiled from 1.2 million subscriber surveys, this year's auto reliability survey heavily favors Japanese automakers, with eight of the 10 spots hailing from Japan. Toyota brands grabbed the top three spots (Scion, Toyota and Lexus – in that order) with Mazda, Subaru, Honda and Acura filling the next four spots. The only non-Asian automaker cracking the top 10 was Audi at number eight.



This too.

AlsCobra

That whole Firestone/Explorer thing was messed up. You know almost all of those failed tires that caused accidents or had defects were over 4 years old and more mileage on them than they were rated for. Tread still looked good though. Firestone took the rap for it though.

StangMahn

Ford's problem was caused by a Firestone part. Toyota's various problems were caused by faulty Toyota designs.

and **** Consumer Reports. 20 years ago it might have been reputable, now it's just another **** magazine.

MARZ

I just want to get this straight. Cut out all the sales statistics, Motor Trend quotes and the rest of the irrelevant B.S. If I understand you correctly, when Toyota beats Ford in a particular market segment (like Corolla over Focus, using your example), it's because people are put-off by Ford's past or inability to match Toyota in terms of quality..

...but when Ford has a particular model that outsells Toyota's competing offering, it's because of patriotism; it's because Ford's marque has existed for x number of years, etc? What's the difference? Why is it, when Ford's truck outsells Toyota's Tundra, it's because of a different reason than why the Corolla outsells the Focus? Why is it, when the Ford Explorer outsells the Toyota Highlander, you attribute it to patriotism? Why is it, when the Ford Escape outsells the Toyota Rav4, it's because of of something other than the reason why the Corolla outsells the Focus? I mean, like the Tundra vs. F-150 example you used above, the Focus is just the better car in terms of engine output, amenities, styling, etc.

Once a company's been driven into the ground by its management and exists only because of billions and billions of taxpayer dollars then I believe those footing the bill have the right to criticize. Besides, in my opinion, there's a huge difference between Ford choosing to save cash by adorning the E-Series van with off-the-shelf Super Duty components and GM and Chrysler going bankrupt.

cdynaco

Yeah CR has been irrelevant since the 80's that I know of. Their 'financial recommendations' have been a joke for that long at least.

Zastava_101

And I should believe you instead of Consumer Reports ... why exactly?

Is JD Powers also just another **** magazine?

2k7gtcs

Fords suck. American cars suck. The american workers suck. Everybody buy foreign cars.

/end thread

cdynaco

You are defending CR? Expand your horizons my friend. They are corrupt. And incorrect on many topics.

MARZ

The JD Power rankings change significantly year-to-year. Does that mean, in 2010 and 2011, Ford (including their Lincoln brand) produced a significantly better-quality product than Toyota (and virtually every other Asian brand for that matter)? There are a myriad of factors, including when an automaker releases its new models (2012 was a huge year for Ford in terms of all-new and refreshed products). I'm also curious to know how many of the "quality issue" knocks against Ford have to do with MyFord Touch and the people out there who are too stupid to figure it out.

Treadhead

Not to mention the non driving dumb American patriots who freak out and immediately swerve off the road instead of slowing and easing onto the shoulder.

Zastava_101

I think you misunderstood me.
Reasons vary from car to car. Sometimes, a product is truly better IMO, Taurus outsells Avalon because its truly a better car in every aspect.
Sometimes price talks ...
One thing that I haven't mention before is rebates. I got my 2005 F-150 for $8,000 under MSRP. I got a brand new truck with 4 doors, V8 and 4x4 for $21,000. Back then I was impossible to find a deal like that anywhere else, the cheapest Tundra with that configuration was over $30,000.
Another thing - fleet sales. Ford is #1 in fleet sales.
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/27/f...old-to-fleets/
I didn't mean to say that every time Toyota outsells Ford is because of the reliability and every time Ford outsells Toyota is for another reasons.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that Fords are crap and I will gladely purchase another Ford's vehicle, but numbers have to work in my favor. I bought my Mustang, F-150 and Fusion because I got the great deal.
Like I have said it before - I will gladly buy another Ford as long as I can get it for 20% less than Toyota/Honda, considering I'm gonna lose that much (compared to Toyota/Honda) when I try to sell it 5 years later.
I almost bought Fiesta instead of Fit. But when I saw that 5 years old Fits go for more than 5 years old Fusions (let alone Fiesta when its 5 years old), it was difficult to justify any reasons to buy Fusion or any car (not counting trucks and/or SUV) from Ford compared to Honda.