Ford rethinks big-block V-8 plan (6.2L)
6/23/08, 05:31 AM
#1
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Ford rethinks big-block V-8 plan (6.2L)
Ford rethinks big-block V-8 plan
Declining pickup sales and soaring gasoline prices are threatening Ford Motor Co.'s big-block V-8 engine program. Ford told suppliers last week to stop work on a 6.2-liter V-8 engine that had been scheduled to go into the F-series pickup as early as next year, sources told Automotive News. [SUB] 12:01 amU.S. ET | June 23
. . . I know production has been pushed back a couple months for the new F150, not sure if this is a delay to match or a complete withdraw from production.
Declining pickup sales and soaring gasoline prices are threatening Ford Motor Co.'s big-block V-8 engine program. Ford told suppliers last week to stop work on a 6.2-liter V-8 engine that had been scheduled to go into the F-series pickup as early as next year, sources told Automotive News. [SUB] 12:01 amU.S. ET | June 23
. . . I know production has been pushed back a couple months for the new F150, not sure if this is a delay to match or a complete withdraw from production.
6/23/08, 07:09 AM
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Not really Zoran. With gas the way it is, this is reality! How many would they sell in the trucks. It would have to be ALOT to help offset the development costs. I would love to see it (as a Ford sales person, I would REALLY LOVE THIS ENGINE), but in today's society, with gas and all, it may not happen.
6/23/08, 07:26 AM
#4
Bullitt Member
Breaking news! Ford gives up! Cites car busines being too hard for them..
Honestly, if you're buying a truck, who give a **** about gas mileage? People will always need them, and who knows if gas prices will shoot down in a year or so after the bubble bursts?
It's not like the mods are known for their fuel efficiency anyways, a engine 20 years newer than the mods should be capable of better mileage, especially considering the Boss was built to be DI and variable displacement, the mods are not.
So Ford just threw away a decade of engineering and cash, to stick with a fuel thirsty dead end engine based on the current gas price bubble, that's as alarmist as the idiot speculators who raise the price of oil everytime a gnat farts in Zimbabwe..
Maybe they should just get out of the automobile business since it's too tough, Chrysler for 09 improved the aero on the Ram, gave it better mileage, and 380 horsepower and over 400 ft. lbs. of torque. Why would I buy an F-150 with the 5.4 that is much weaker and thirstier?
As a lifetime Ford enthusiast, I just can't take this constant back stabbing by Ford, this means no more Raptor or any other SVT vehicles other than the GT500 as well.
Total Performance is dead, nothing but a distant memory when this company was run actual car guys, not wall st. ****suckers..
Honestly, if you're buying a truck, who give a **** about gas mileage? People will always need them, and who knows if gas prices will shoot down in a year or so after the bubble bursts?
It's not like the mods are known for their fuel efficiency anyways, a engine 20 years newer than the mods should be capable of better mileage, especially considering the Boss was built to be DI and variable displacement, the mods are not.
So Ford just threw away a decade of engineering and cash, to stick with a fuel thirsty dead end engine based on the current gas price bubble, that's as alarmist as the idiot speculators who raise the price of oil everytime a gnat farts in Zimbabwe..
Maybe they should just get out of the automobile business since it's too tough, Chrysler for 09 improved the aero on the Ram, gave it better mileage, and 380 horsepower and over 400 ft. lbs. of torque. Why would I buy an F-150 with the 5.4 that is much weaker and thirstier?
As a lifetime Ford enthusiast, I just can't take this constant back stabbing by Ford, this means no more Raptor or any other SVT vehicles other than the GT500 as well.
Total Performance is dead, nothing but a distant memory when this company was run actual car guys, not wall st. ****suckers..
Last edited by Black331; 6/23/08 at 07:31 AM.
6/23/08, 07:30 AM
#5
Bullitt Member
Not really Zoran. With gas the way it is, this is reality! How many would they sell in the trucks. It would have to be ALOT to help offset the development costs. I would love to see it (as a Ford sales person, I would REALLY LOVE THIS ENGINE), but in today's society, with gas and all, it may not happen.
6/23/08, 08:13 AM
#6
Needs to be more Astony
Ford better release the hurricane. This engine has been in the works for like 6 years. Would be incredible waste of money not to ever come out. It could have come out 2 years ago if they hadn't kept starting and stopping work on it so much.
I agree above, i hope this is just to allow the new engine to match the delayed F150.
I agree above, i hope this is just to allow the new engine to match the delayed F150.
6/23/08, 09:02 AM
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I can't get the link to work. Is it the same as this. http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/new...he-market.html
According to this article, the Boss 6.2L is still coming out. But only in the Super Duty's to replace the 6.8L V10. The Raptor might be the only F-150 to get the Boss.
I remember when the Boss was early in development. It was said then that the 5.8L will replace the 5.4L and the 6.2L will replace the 6.8L V10. The 5.8 was cancelled for sometime now. So it looks like Ford really didn't change their plans that much.
According to this article, the Boss 6.2L is still coming out. But only in the Super Duty's to replace the 6.8L V10. The Raptor might be the only F-150 to get the Boss.
I remember when the Boss was early in development. It was said then that the 5.8L will replace the 5.4L and the 6.2L will replace the 6.8L V10. The 5.8 was cancelled for sometime now. So it looks like Ford really didn't change their plans that much.
6/23/08, 09:18 AM
#8
I Have No Life
Other than the standard 150.. its still staying the course.
The good thing is, if the demand is there, its still possible to throw in.
They are erring on the side of caution and I don't blame them.
Truck sales are down, people don't want a guzzler.
If you still want the Boss, buy an F250
They'll still be more than enough power to throw around with what they have.
But they have to be smarter about how they create that power.
The good thing is, if the demand is there, its still possible to throw in.
They are erring on the side of caution and I don't blame them.
Truck sales are down, people don't want a guzzler.
If you still want the Boss, buy an F250
They'll still be more than enough power to throw around with what they have.
But they have to be smarter about how they create that power.
6/23/08, 10:53 AM
#9
I started to discuss the possibility that Ford might be better off to shorten the mass production life of the Boss/Hurricane not so long ago here. Nobody here bit but it seems Ford might be thinking the same thing.
http://forums.bradbarnett.net
Here is the problem with the upcoming 6.2L V8.....the GTDi 5.0L V8. The cold hard truth is that the 5.0L GTDi V8 will trump the n/a 6.2L V8 in every performance category, seriously besting the larger V8 in torque, and will still knock down better fuel economy for your trouble. For the sake of argument realistic power numbers are probably going to be about 425hp and 425lb-ft of torque for the 6.2L and about 440hp and close to 485lb-ft of torque for the 5.0L GTDi....both of these representing run of the mill, volume applications. Take into account the reality that the 5.0L GTDi V8 is almost certainly going to hit it's torque peak some where shy of 2000rpm, and then ride that torque peak almost all the way to redline, and the power contest will be no contest.
Granted the above numbers are estimates, but I was intentionally conservative with the 5.0L GTDi V8....the gap will likely be at least this large or larger. Factor in superior fuel economy (BMW's new 4.4L GTDi V8 knocks down 400hp and 450lb-ft of torque and still beats the outgoing n/a 4.8L DOHC V8 used in the X5, 5 Series, etc in terms of fuel economy despite a huge power advantage.) and it becomes increasingly difficult to make a case for the 6.2L V8 as a volume piece. To add insult to injury the GTDi 5.0L is almost certain to be a more refined/smoother engine too. The only possible advantage for the 6.2L would be in the area of cost, and when you take into consideration the fact that using the 5.0L GTDi V8 instead of the 6.2L would eliminate the need for an entire production line even that isn't iron clad.
I know, somebody is going to argue that they would rather have their power from cubic inches than a turbo. But the truth is that pickup sales are taking a beating and gas prices are the primary reason. If the major auto makers can figure out a way to give you similar power and better fuel economy they will likely take it. In this instance they can do that one better offering you better fuel economy and better power in the same package. And while some may scoff at turbo engines replacing their big inch pieces, Ford and GM are already dealing with the fact that customers are scoffing at the fuel consumption of those same big inch pieces in growing numbers, so I'm going to guess any such argument against smaller turbo V8's wont carry much weight with people like Lutz or Mulally.
I would also disagree that canceling the 6.2L as a volume piece at this point would demonstrate poor judgment on Ford's part. The reality is that, in years past, the big three would likely push ahead with a program this near to completion simply because it is so far along in the developmental process. Put plainly that is bad business. If the engine isn't likely to prove profitable, or if an alternative is likely to prove more profitable, then the only smart decision is to cancel the program done or not. Development costs are already sunk and pushing on with a program that isn't going to work wont make things any better.
All that said I do think there exists a logical place within the Ford lineup for the Hurricane/Boss V8 engine...... as a limited production, high performance piece for vehicles like the GT500 and Lightning. Think of AMG's bespoke V8 and you get the picture. Retool the engine for very limited production on a small, bespoke production pumping out maybe 20 thousand units per year for worldwide consumption rather than the few hundred thousand units originally planned. Build it exclusively as a 7.0L/427 cubic inch DOHC piece with and without turbocharging and Ford could have something no other automaker except for the luxury players have, a unique, big inch, hi-performance piece.
There may not be any room left for big inch, n/a gas guzzlers in volume applications, but vehicles like the GT500 and Lightning will always have a place in the automotive world if in limited numbers. Just my two cents.
http://forums.bradbarnett.net
Here is the problem with the upcoming 6.2L V8.....the GTDi 5.0L V8. The cold hard truth is that the 5.0L GTDi V8 will trump the n/a 6.2L V8 in every performance category, seriously besting the larger V8 in torque, and will still knock down better fuel economy for your trouble. For the sake of argument realistic power numbers are probably going to be about 425hp and 425lb-ft of torque for the 6.2L and about 440hp and close to 485lb-ft of torque for the 5.0L GTDi....both of these representing run of the mill, volume applications. Take into account the reality that the 5.0L GTDi V8 is almost certainly going to hit it's torque peak some where shy of 2000rpm, and then ride that torque peak almost all the way to redline, and the power contest will be no contest.
Granted the above numbers are estimates, but I was intentionally conservative with the 5.0L GTDi V8....the gap will likely be at least this large or larger. Factor in superior fuel economy (BMW's new 4.4L GTDi V8 knocks down 400hp and 450lb-ft of torque and still beats the outgoing n/a 4.8L DOHC V8 used in the X5, 5 Series, etc in terms of fuel economy despite a huge power advantage.) and it becomes increasingly difficult to make a case for the 6.2L V8 as a volume piece. To add insult to injury the GTDi 5.0L is almost certain to be a more refined/smoother engine too. The only possible advantage for the 6.2L would be in the area of cost, and when you take into consideration the fact that using the 5.0L GTDi V8 instead of the 6.2L would eliminate the need for an entire production line even that isn't iron clad.
I know, somebody is going to argue that they would rather have their power from cubic inches than a turbo. But the truth is that pickup sales are taking a beating and gas prices are the primary reason. If the major auto makers can figure out a way to give you similar power and better fuel economy they will likely take it. In this instance they can do that one better offering you better fuel economy and better power in the same package. And while some may scoff at turbo engines replacing their big inch pieces, Ford and GM are already dealing with the fact that customers are scoffing at the fuel consumption of those same big inch pieces in growing numbers, so I'm going to guess any such argument against smaller turbo V8's wont carry much weight with people like Lutz or Mulally.
I would also disagree that canceling the 6.2L as a volume piece at this point would demonstrate poor judgment on Ford's part. The reality is that, in years past, the big three would likely push ahead with a program this near to completion simply because it is so far along in the developmental process. Put plainly that is bad business. If the engine isn't likely to prove profitable, or if an alternative is likely to prove more profitable, then the only smart decision is to cancel the program done or not. Development costs are already sunk and pushing on with a program that isn't going to work wont make things any better.
All that said I do think there exists a logical place within the Ford lineup for the Hurricane/Boss V8 engine...... as a limited production, high performance piece for vehicles like the GT500 and Lightning. Think of AMG's bespoke V8 and you get the picture. Retool the engine for very limited production on a small, bespoke production pumping out maybe 20 thousand units per year for worldwide consumption rather than the few hundred thousand units originally planned. Build it exclusively as a 7.0L/427 cubic inch DOHC piece with and without turbocharging and Ford could have something no other automaker except for the luxury players have, a unique, big inch, hi-performance piece.
There may not be any room left for big inch, n/a gas guzzlers in volume applications, but vehicles like the GT500 and Lightning will always have a place in the automotive world if in limited numbers. Just my two cents.
6/23/08, 12:40 PM
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Breaking news! Ford gives up! Cites car busines being too hard for them..
Honestly, if you're buying a truck, who give a **** about gas mileage? People will always need them, and who knows if gas prices will shoot down in a year or so after the bubble bursts?
It's not like the mods are known for their fuel efficiency anyways, a engine 20 years newer than the mods should be capable of better mileage, especially considering the Boss was built to be DI and variable displacement, the mods are not.
So Ford just threw away a decade of engineering and cash, to stick with a fuel thirsty dead end engine based on the current gas price bubble, that's as alarmist as the idiot speculators who raise the price of oil everytime a gnat farts in Zimbabwe..
Maybe they should just get out of the automobile business since it's too tough, Chrysler for 09 improved the aero on the Ram, gave it better mileage, and 380 horsepower and over 400 ft. lbs. of torque. Why would I buy an F-150 with the 5.4 that is much weaker and thirstier?
As a lifetime Ford enthusiast, I just can't take this constant back stabbing by Ford, this means no more Raptor or any other SVT vehicles other than the GT500 as well.
Total Performance is dead, nothing but a distant memory when this company was run actual car guys, not wall st. ****suckers..
Honestly, if you're buying a truck, who give a **** about gas mileage? People will always need them, and who knows if gas prices will shoot down in a year or so after the bubble bursts?
It's not like the mods are known for their fuel efficiency anyways, a engine 20 years newer than the mods should be capable of better mileage, especially considering the Boss was built to be DI and variable displacement, the mods are not.
So Ford just threw away a decade of engineering and cash, to stick with a fuel thirsty dead end engine based on the current gas price bubble, that's as alarmist as the idiot speculators who raise the price of oil everytime a gnat farts in Zimbabwe..
Maybe they should just get out of the automobile business since it's too tough, Chrysler for 09 improved the aero on the Ram, gave it better mileage, and 380 horsepower and over 400 ft. lbs. of torque. Why would I buy an F-150 with the 5.4 that is much weaker and thirstier?
As a lifetime Ford enthusiast, I just can't take this constant back stabbing by Ford, this means no more Raptor or any other SVT vehicles other than the GT500 as well.
Total Performance is dead, nothing but a distant memory when this company was run actual car guys, not wall st. ****suckers..
Whoever decides to buy a truck or a V8 Mustang shouldn't care that much if his car/trucks get 17 mpg or 13-14 mpg.
6/23/08, 02:22 PM
#11
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Raptor's still coming, haven't seen anything to indicate it has died.
As for what truck owners should want, that's the mindset that nearly killed Ford in the first place. You can't just stick with BB-V8s because that's what the market should want, you have to do what the market wants no matter how nutty it seems. The Super-Duty will still have the Boss, and the F-150 will still have the 5.0, for people doing serious pickup duty. But if the rest of the market wants efficiency, that's what you give them.
As for what truck owners should want, that's the mindset that nearly killed Ford in the first place. You can't just stick with BB-V8s because that's what the market should want, you have to do what the market wants no matter how nutty it seems. The Super-Duty will still have the Boss, and the F-150 will still have the 5.0, for people doing serious pickup duty. But if the rest of the market wants efficiency, that's what you give them.
6/23/08, 02:52 PM
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6/23/08, 03:08 PM
#13
Whatever our opinions might be the reality of the situation is that they obviously do care, there exists little else to explain the F-150's rather serious decline in sales of late. I'm just surprised by the fact that so many think this has to be a bad thing. Black 331 cited that the trimming of this engine program would mean the end for vehicles like the Raptor, but nothing could be further from the truth. The 6.2L SOHC has some interesting features but the reality is that Ford has engines in the pipeline which are superior to the 6.2L in terms of both power and fuel economy. And I'm always gad to see something better.
6/23/08, 04:26 PM
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If you think oil will ever drop below $100 a barrel again, your dreaming. Welcome to the new normal. I have been wondering how long it would take for Ford to see the writing on the wall and kill these megalithic engines.
I'm not saying it's ideal or that I'm happy about it. But it is what it is. The days of cheap oil are over for good this time.
6/23/08, 06:57 PM
#17
What "bubble"? You're kidding, right?
If you think oil will ever drop below $100 a barrel again, your dreaming. Welcome to the new normal. I have been wondering how long it would take for Ford to see the writing on the wall and kill these megalithic engines.
I'm not saying it's ideal or that I'm happy about it. But it is what it is. The days of cheap oil are over for good this time.
If you think oil will ever drop below $100 a barrel again, your dreaming. Welcome to the new normal. I have been wondering how long it would take for Ford to see the writing on the wall and kill these megalithic engines.
I'm not saying it's ideal or that I'm happy about it. But it is what it is. The days of cheap oil are over for good this time.
Oil circa 1980 $50 barrel in 1980s dollars 1990 it was $8 / barrel
Silver 1980s
Stock market 1999
Housing 2007
6/24/08, 12:05 AM
#18
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Only way I see oil coming down significantly again is if an alternative energy source surfaces and becomes more popular.
Last edited by Hollywood_North GT; 6/24/08 at 12:07 AM.
6/24/08, 11:18 AM
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Until fuel cells undergo a few more big jumps, look to something more interim. Like renewable forms of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanol_fuel