bigred0383

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Moosetang @ April 26, 2006, 10:43 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
And they base that on what? Ford's international and PAG brands (save Jaguar) are profitable. GM's Europe operations lost nearly half a billion last year and aren't showing signs of a turnaround. Take away plant closings and associated costs, Ford was in the black last quarter. GM was not and they didn't have a plant closing happening that Q. And GM's Bob Putz keeps dumping money into limted-production sports cars while their volume sales hinge entirely on the launch of the Truck models, while Ford's aggressively going after volume sedan and hybrid sales. If Ford can get their plants closed with minimal pain, and keep their focus on making the car lines competetive, they're in good shape.
[/b][/quote]

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/werd.gif[/img]

bigred0383

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(max2000jp @ April 26, 2006, 5:46 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
You are optimistic. Ford really doesn't have any strong products in development for the US. The Fusion is an average product as well as it's Lincoln sibling. It's sad that Ford doesn't bring over the Euro Focus and various Aussie products. It would really rejuveniate their lineup. GM has a lot of nice cars/CUVs in the works, especially Saturn and Buick. Cadillac is a growing brand, unlike Lincoln. GM's profit per vehicle has also increased as of late and their sales are on a slight rebound.
[/b][/quote]

I am gonna have to diasagree with you.

The new Fusion/Milan/MKZ are very competitive cars, and are selling quite well, as well as garnering pretty good praise (although the crash test results were diassapointing).

While the 500/Montery/Freestyle aren't exactly exciting, they are well built, and selling a lot better than most people think.

Mercury is starting to differentiate themselves form Ford and is beginning to move more upscale, though Linclon could use a few more products.

The new Edge/MKX that are coming out should also be big hits. The new Expedition and Escape should also help. And even though Explorer sales aren't huge, no one should have expected the sales they once had: overall SUV sales are down, and it has 10 times the direct competitors it used to.

The new Duratec 35/6 sp auto will be a BIG help to all the cars they are put in (whose list seems to be growing by the day). Fords new cars also have vastly improved build quality, interiors, and underpinnings compared to their products from just 3 or 4 years ago.

Land Rover and Aston Martin and Mazda are at the top of their game, Volvo is doing fine, and Jaguar while struggling, can only get better.

As far as comparing GM and Ford, while they both have much improved cars coming out, the Fords, at least for now, are coming out sooner and selling better. Can't argue Cadillac vs. Lincoln though.

Personally I am getting kind of sick of hearing about how Ford's Aussie cars and the European Focus should be brought over to magically save Ford. The Aussie cars are already past their mid-life cycle, and while nice, would run the risk of the same fate as the GTO (great cars, but designed to look current/good years ago, not now). They are also expensive cars to begin with, not even taking into account they are right hand drive, must be U.S. certified and shipped over here.

While in trouble I think Ford is better off, and will be, than GM.

max2000jp

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bigred0383 @ April 26, 2006, 7:19 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I am gonna have to diasagree with you.

The new Fusion/Milan/MKZ are very competitive cars, and are selling quite well, as well as garnering pretty good praise (although the crash test results were diassapointing).

While the 500/Montery/Freestyle aren't exactly exciting, they are well built, and selling a lot better than most people think.

Mercury is starting to differentiate themselves form Ford and is beginning to move more upscale, though Linclon could use a few more products.

The new Edge/MKX that are coming out should also be big hits. The new Expedition and Escape should also help. And even though Explorer sales aren't huge, no one should have expected the sales they once had: overall SUV sales are down, and it has 10 times the direct competitors it used to.

The new Duratec 35/6 sp auto will be a BIG help to all the cars they are put in (whose list seems to be growing by the day). Fords new cars also have vastly improved build quality, interiors, and underpinnings compared to their products from just 3 or 4 years ago.

Land Rover and Aston Martin and Mazda are at the top of their game, Volvo is doing fine, and Jaguar while struggling, can only get better.

As far as comparing GM and Ford, while they both have much improved cars coming out, the Fords, at least for now, are coming out sooner and selling better. Can't argue Cadillac vs. Lincoln though.

Personally I am getting kind of sick of hearing about how Ford's Aussie cars and the European Focus should be brought over to magically save Ford. The Aussie cars are already past their mid-life cycle, and while nice, would run the risk of the same fate as the GTO (great cars, but designed to look current/good years ago, not now). They are also expensive cars to begin with, not even taking into account they are right hand drive, must be U.S. certified and shipped over here.

While in trouble I think Ford is better off, and will be, than GM.
[/b][/quote]

Here is the problem....Have you sat in the Fusion or MKZ? The plastic and interior refinement is poor. Heck Hyundai has a nicer interior and powertrain RIGHT NOW! Ford should have introduced the 3.5L Duratec 2-3 years ago to match their foreign competitors. It's a great engine, per the stats, but for example the 3.5 VQ has been out since MY 02.

Mercury has some new cars out, but they are classic badge engineering. As for the Escape/Expedition don't count on huge sales or an increase IMO over last year. Gas prices are going to steer consumers away from SUVs.

Here is Ford's Problems IMHO:

-Focus....Old and outdated. Ford has a great product in the Euro Focus, but refuses to bring it here. I guess they will let Hyundai, Toyota(Scion), and Honda steal sales.
-No RWD Big Sedan....Ford where is your DCX fighter. If you haven't noticed the DCX RWD sedans have been a HUGE hit. Ford has nothing to compete in this market. The Crown Vic...Hardly!
-Mid Sized truck....Ford is giving up in this market. The Ranger is outdated and junk compared to the competition. Nothing until 2010 for this market.
-SVT....Ford let a well established PERFORMANCE brand wither and die. Hmm...SRT's are flying off the showrooms. Same goes with AMGs and BMW M's. Ford needs a performance division to draw customers into the showroom and generate excitement for the brand.
-Compacts....Ford has no competitor to the rush of small vehicles. Check out last months C&D and see what the segment has to offer.

What Ford is doing right is investing in hybrids. Again, they are late to the game compared with Toyota and Honda.

GM and Ford can solve their vehicle related problems pretty easily, but it's going to be a while. The big problem with American manufacturers is that consumer feel that American cars are inferior in quality compared to imports. GM/Ford can easily squash this label by offering a more comprehensive warranty. It worked VERY well for Hyundai.

bigred0383

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(max2000jp @ April 26, 2006, 10:06 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Here is the problem....Have you sat in the Fusion or MKZ? The plastic and interior refinement is poor. Heck Hyundai has a nicer interior and powertrain RIGHT NOW! Ford should have introduced the 3.5L Duratec 2-3 years ago to match their foreign competitors. It's a great engine, per the stats, but for example the 3.5 VQ has been out since MY 02.

Mercury has some new cars out, but they are classic badge engineering. As for the Escape/Expedition don't count on huge sales or an increase IMO over last year. Gas prices are going to steer consumers away from SUVs.

Here is Ford's Problems IMHO:

-Focus....Old and outdated. Ford has a great product in the Euro Focus, but refuses to bring it here. I guess they will let Hyundai, Toyota(Scion), and Honda steal sales.
-No RWD Big Sedan....Ford where is your DCX fighter. If you haven't noticed the DCX RWD sedans have been a HUGE hit. Ford has nothing to compete in this market. The Crown Vic...Hardly!
-Mid Sized truck....Ford is giving up in this market. The Ranger is outdated and junk compared to the competition. Nothing until 2010 for this market.
-SVT....Ford let a well established PERFORMANCE brand wither and die. Hmm...SRT's are flying off the showrooms. Same goes with AMGs and BMW M's. Ford needs a performance division to draw customers into the showroom and generate excitement for the brand.
-Compacts....Ford has no competitor to the rush of small vehicles. Check out last months C&D and see what the segment has to offer.

What Ford is doing right is investing in hybrids. Again, they are late to the game compared with Toyota and Honda.

GM and Ford can solve their vehicle related problems pretty easily, but it's going to be a while. The big problem with American manufacturers is that consumer feel that American cars are inferior in quality compared to imports. GM/Ford can easily squash this label by offering a more comprehensive warranty. It worked VERY well for Hyundai.
[/b][/quote]

Yes, I have been in a Fusion, and while it isn't made of Audi grade materials (which every magazine claims every car should employ) it also isn't an Audi, most notably in price. It's miles beyond the Taurus, and just as good as any Hyundai. Toyota and Honda are still a step above. GM is NOT.

As far as small cars, Ford isn't letting anybody steal anything. They never had it to begin with. Small cars have been Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai's forte since they got here. And again, the Euro Focus is priced way out of the small car segment (there or here).

As far as big sedans, the sales number for the 300C and the 500 are nearly identical. And even though they have the Charger, the Crown Vic still commands big fleet sale contracts (for the time being).

As far as the mid-size truck segment, Ford invented it, with the SportTrac, and just released a new one that is miles beyond the original. So with the Ranger, SportTrac, F-150, F-250/350 (550,650, etc) Ford has got the truck market locked down (as long as they continue to improve, and keep their products from getting stale).

SVT just announced it will consistently carry two cars, a Mustang and a Truck, which is just one less car than they have ever offered at one time (Stang/Contour/F-150, Stang/Focus/F-150). While performance cars do get people interested in brands, they sell in VERY small numbers and don't bring much of a profit. It's a lot easier for Chrysler and Dodge to throw out performance cars when they get the money, the parts, and the engineering from Mercedes-Benz. Ford needs to get successful (without having to be bought-out) before they can worry about niche products.

max2000jp

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bigred0383 @ April 26, 2006, 10:36 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Yes, I have been in a Fusion, and while it isn't made of Audi grade materials (which every magazine claims every car should employ) it also isn't an Audi, most notably in price. It's miles beyond the Taurus, and just as good as any Hyundai. Toyota and Honda are still a step above. GM is NOT.

As far as small cars, Ford isn't letting anybody steal anything. They never had it to begin with. Small cars have been Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai's forte since they got here. And again, the Euro Focus is priced way out of the small car segment (there or here).

As far as big sedans, the sales number for the 300C and the 500 are nearly identical. And even though they have the Charger, the Crown Vic still commands big fleet sale contracts (for the time being).

As far as the mid-size truck segment, Ford invented it, with the SportTrac, and just released a new one that is miles beyond the original. So with the Ranger, SportTrac, F-150, F-250/350 (550,650, etc) Ford has got the truck market locked down (as long as they continue to improve, and keep their products from getting stale).

SVT just announced it will consistently carry two cars, a Mustang and a Truck, which is just one less car than they have ever offered at one time (Stang/Contour/F-150, Stang/Focus/F-150). While performance cars do get people interested in brands, they sell in VERY small numbers and don't bring much of a profit. It's a lot easier for Chrysler and Dodge to throw out performance cars when they get the money, the parts, and the engineering from Mercedes-Benz. Ford needs to get successful (without having to be bought-out) before they can worry about niche products.
[/b][/quote]

Look what Hyundai did with the Sonata: http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/sonata/i...r/interior.aspx . As for Honda and Toyota, Ford isn't even close. Also, don't count GM out. The Saturn Aura is coming out soon and it blows away the Fusion and 500. Take a look: http://www.saturn.com/saturn/vehicles/futu...eModelLink=aura . I saw it at the Chicago Auto Show and it looks great in person and the interior is amazing for a GM.

As for small cars, I disagree. Ford did have a small cheap compact before and they gave up on this segment. Again, this is an area where Ford SHOULD BE. The Euro Focus and Ka would be a great start, but Ford refuses to bring themhere out of sheer stupidity. The cost arguement is also stupid as well. Ford sells the Euro Focus' sister here in the US under the Mazda brand. Compare the cost of a base Focus and 3. The difference is something like 1K and you get a lot of features STANDARD in the 3 that's optional in the Focus.

As for the 300C, it leads it's segment in sales. The Crown Vic is alive thanks to Budget and Police Organizations. It's an archaic sedan that needs to be put to rest. Same with the Town Car and Grand Marquis. Again, Ford has nothing in the product pipeline.

The SportTrac still is a SUV, even by Ford's own website. Maybe I was using the wrong terminology, but the Ranger IMO is a midsized/compact truck. Competitors include the Tacoma, Frontier, Dakota, etc. The Ranger is VERY outdated to its competition.

I do agree that Ford needs to become profitable and then focus on SVT. The lineup did have a lot of nice products in the pipeline, but financial troubles put a stop to that obviously. The financial troubles were a result of Ford being out of touch with the American consumer. What Ford really needs to do is start racing again. I am not talking about NASCAR, but open wheel racing. Racing breeds innovation and new technology that trickles down into production cars. NASCAR is huge, but lets face it the cars aren't technogically advanced when compared F1 or AML.

bigred0383

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(max2000jp @ April 26, 2006, 11:12 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Look what Hyundai did with the Sonata: http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/sonata/i...r/interior.aspx . As for Honda and Toyota, Ford isn't even close. Also, don't count GM out. The Saturn Aura is coming out soon and it blows away the Fusion and 500. Take a look: http://www.saturn.com/saturn/vehicles/futu...eModelLink=aura . I saw it at the Chicago Auto Show and it looks great in person and the interior is amazing for a GM.

As for small cars, I disagree. Ford did have a small cheap compact before and they gave up on this segment. Again, this is an area where Ford SHOULD BE. The Euro Focus and Ka would be a great start, but Ford refuses to bring themhere out of sheer stupidity. The cost arguement is also stupid as well. Ford sells the Euro Focus' sister here in the US under the Mazda brand. Compare the cost of a base Focus and 3. The difference is something like 1K and you get a lot of features STANDARD in the 3 that's optional in the Focus.

As for the 300C, it leads it's segment in sales. The Crown Vic is alive thanks to Budget and Police Organizations. It's an archaic sedan that needs to be put to rest. Same with the Town Car and Grand Marquis. Again, Ford has nothing in the product pipeline.

The SportTrac still is a SUV, even by Ford's own website. Maybe I was using the wrong terminology, but the Ranger IMO is a midsized/compact truck. Competitors include the Tacoma, Frontier, Dakota, etc. The Ranger is VERY outdated to its competition.

I do agree that Ford needs to become profitable and then focus on SVT. The lineup did have a lot of nice products in the pipeline, but financial troubles put a stop to that obviously. The financial troubles were a result of Ford being out of touch with the American consumer. What Ford really needs to do is start racing again. I am not talking about NASCAR, but open wheel racing. Racing breeds innovation and new technology that trickles down into production cars. NASCAR is huge, but lets face it the cars aren't technogically advanced when compared F1 or AML.
[/b][/quote]

While I don't agree that the cost factor is stupid, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

By the way, Ford doesn't sell Mazda here, Mazda does. There are different rules and restrictions for Foreign owned companies and Domestic owned companies.

I am a big fan of the Panter platform cars, and if you don't think they still serve a place in the automotive world, you are crazy (not that they couldn't use a freshening up).

The Ranger helped found the compact truck segment. Then it had competitors. It was still better, so the competitors moved up in size to "create" a new segment Ford had already created with the SportTrac. The Ranger is one of the few true compact trucks left (although I agree it needs a freshining as well). Whether you want to call the SportTrac a SUV or a truck doesn't matter, its serves the same purpose as the other vehicles in it's segment (the Ridgeline is based of a SUV, the Pilot, but it's considered a truck, so there really isn't much difference there).

What's stupid is to suggest that rejoining open wheel racing will help Ford. At all. Do you have any idea the hundreds of millions of dollars it cost to run one of those teams per year, let alone start up a new one. Ford did have one, through Jaguar, and THEY SUCKED. They ended it a couple of years ago. I wouldn't have minded if they were competetive, but they weren't. And Ford couldn't afford it either. Then or now. To think that the average consumer really cares if Ford races is simply ridiculous.

And as far as technology trickling down, unless you are talking about Ferrari, or teams who also put out specialized sports cars (i.e. Honda with the NSX and S2000) no, you aren't going to see technology come into everday cars (the last major thing we saw come from race cars was VVT and VCT, and that was almost 10 years ago). And with the new engine restrictions being put on the majority of racing leagues these days, you are going to start seeing more technology develop in road cars instead of race cars (such as adaptive cruise control, and car assisted parking).

Moosetang

Like I said before: Ford's Global operations are profitable. The 3 North American brands and Jaguar are losing money and market share, but as long as the money is coming in from overseas they can keep their heads above water and keep trying to rebuild NA. GM doesn't have that luxury. Yes, their Hummer and Cadillac units are doing quite well, as is GMAC financing, but the rest of the multinational coproration that is GM is losing money. 2 lower-volume brands and a financing unit can't keep GM afloat if they don't have a profitable volume brand anywhere.

No, Ford's changes haven't all been home runs, and not all of GM's efforts are falling short. But from the financial situation Ford is better equiped to handle missteps and move on while a bad launch for GM right now could kill it.

TomServo92

I took a long look at a Sonata and an Azera one day while picking up yet ANOTHER part to repair my fiance's Tiburon (which will be history as soon as we're married) and I wasn't that impressed. It was OK but nothing special.

max2000jp

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bigred0383 @ April 27, 2006, 1:32 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
While I don't agree that the cost factor is stupid, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

By the way, Ford doesn't sell Mazda here, Mazda does. There are different rules and restrictions for Foreign owned companies and Domestic owned companies.

I am a big fan of the Panter platform cars, and if you don't think they still serve a place in the automotive world, you are crazy (not that they couldn't use a freshening up).

The Ranger helped found the compact truck segment. Then it had competitors. It was still better, so the competitors moved up in size to "create" a new segment Ford had already created with the SportTrac. The Ranger is one of the few true compact trucks left (although I agree it needs a freshining as well). Whether you want to call the SportTrac a SUV or a truck doesn't matter, its serves the same purpose as the other vehicles in it's segment (the Ridgeline is based of a SUV, the Pilot, but it's considered a truck, so there really isn't much difference there).

What's stupid is to suggest that rejoining open wheel racing will help Ford. At all. Do you have any idea the hundreds of millions of dollars it cost to run one of those teams per year, let alone start up a new one. Ford did have one, through Jaguar, and THEY SUCKED. They ended it a couple of years ago. I wouldn't have minded if they were competetive, but they weren't. And Ford couldn't afford it either. Then or now. To think that the average consumer really cares if Ford races is simply ridiculous.

And as far as technology trickling down, unless you are talking about Ferrari, or teams who also put out specialized sports cars (i.e. Honda with the NSX and S2000) no, you aren't going to see technology come into everday cars (the last major thing we saw come from race cars was VVT and VCT, and that was almost 10 years ago). And with the new engine restrictions being put on the majority of racing leagues these days, you are going to start seeing more technology develop in road cars instead of race cars (such as adaptive cruise control, and car assisted parking).
[/b][/quote]

Ford owns the Mazda doesn't it? Ever think that Ford could produce the CD1 here? Again, it's nonsense and stupidity on Ford's part.

The Panthers are junk. I've driven many as rental cars, recently a brand new TC. The chassis is a wet noodle, the steering feel is almost non-existent, and the suspension is horrible. The Panthers are also underpowered, cheaply built, and have outdated styling. Simple solution, use a new platform and kill the Panther. Again, the only purpose it serves is in fleet service.

As for the Ranger, it used to be the class leader. If you haven't notice Trucks have gotten bigger over the years. The competition made their trucks bigger, while Ford hasn't done a thing. The Ranger should have had a redesign 3-5 years ago. I think you are confused on what vehilce competes against what. The Rangers competitors are the Dakota or Frontier for example. The SportTrac competes against the Ridgeline. They are both SUVs, not trucks.

Open Wheel racing will help Ford. I don't think you know enough about motorsports to see that. Much of the technology you see in street cars was first implemented in race cars. Racing breeds innovation, except in NASCAR(which is a heavily mandated series). Now I am not saying that Ford should lay 50-100 million yearly on the table and race F1, but rather ALMS. Chevy does it with the Vette or even Aston Martin with the DBR9. Using the FR500C is a perfect example of this. The suspension technology and data trickled down into the Shelby GT500. Another example would be the C6R and Z06.

Moosetang

Ford NA already races sports cars, the Multimatic Mustangs etc., and is the sole-engine supplier for CART. Ford of Europe races the the Focus, AM races the DB9, Volvo races sedans, Australia races the Falcon, and then there's NASCAR (not alot of tech trickle down, admittedly). Going into ALMS or F1 with a factory team wouldn't be enough of an additional asset to justify the cost, though I have a feeling if Multimatic wanted to make a stab at it they'd supply engines through Roush or Yates.

jsaylor

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(max2000jp @ April 27, 2006, 12:12 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Look what Hyundai did with the Sonata. As for Honda and Toyota, Ford isn't even close. Also, don't count GM out. The Saturn Aura is coming out soon and it blows away the Fusion and 500. Take a look I saw it at the Chicago Auto Show and it looks great in person and the interior is amazing for a GM.

As for small cars, I disagree. Ford did have a small cheap compact before and they gave up on this segment. Again, this is an area where Ford SHOULD BE. The Euro Focus and Ka would be a great start, but Ford refuses to bring themhere out of sheer stupidity. The cost arguement is also stupid as well. Ford sells the Euro Focus' sister here in the US under the Mazda brand. Compare the cost of a base Focus and 3. The difference is something like 1K and you get a lot of features STANDARD in the 3 that's optional in the Focus.

As for the 300C, it leads it's segment in sales. The Crown Vic is alive thanks to Budget and Police Organizations. It's an archaic sedan that needs to be put to rest. Same with the Town Car and Grand Marquis. Again, Ford has nothing in the product pipeline.

The SportTrac still is a SUV, even by Ford's own website. Maybe I was using the wrong terminology, but the Ranger IMO is a midsized/compact truck. Competitors include the Tacoma, Frontier, Dakota, etc. The Ranger is VERY outdated to its competition.

I do agree that Ford needs to become profitable and then focus on SVT. The lineup did have a lot of nice products in the pipeline, but financial troubles put a stop to that obviously. The financial troubles were a result of Ford being out of touch with the American consumer. What Ford really needs to do is start racing again. I am not talking about NASCAR, but open wheel racing. Racing breeds innovation and new technology that trickles down into production cars. NASCAR is huge, but lets face it the cars aren't technogically advanced when compared F1 or AML.
[/b][/quote]

Hmm, I felt compelled to chime in due largely to your comments regarding the Fusion. First, the Fusion is lacking, relative to it's Japanese competitors, in three distinct areas. Interior, exterior fit and finish (largely a problem confined to the nose of the Fusion...oddly the Milan does better here) and engine power and refinement. Dynamically speaking....well the Fusion is simply superb. It is hands down the handling champ of the class and doesn't make you pay a penalty in terms of ride for that excellent suspension. The price is also extremely good and, while subjective, styling is generally considered an area of advantage for the Fusion.

Put very simply the installation of the excellent new 3.5L under the Fusions hood and an interior upgrade would easily have this car standing toe to toe with the Accord and Camry in the marketplace all with an offering that handles better than either and is generally more attractive and certainly more distinctive. That is close...indeed very close. Yes, Ford needs to get there sooner than later, but nothing in GM's lineup is even in the ballpark and eventually we can expect at least on of the issues with the Fusion, the motor, to be upgraded. And frankly, the car is so good dynamically that this combined with the Fusions good looks and aggressive price should make the Fusion a full fledged mid-size player even with the ergonomically odd interior.

As for GM, no mid size that they build on our shores or elsewhere is going to fare especially well dynamically against this car. For all the hype surrounding the rebadged Opel we will be getting as a Saturn two things are obvious. One, it will be priced more like a well equipped Accord than a Fusion, hardly a wise move for GM. Two, the myth that is Opel, dynamically speaking, only persists on our side of the pond. Pick up any issue of Car, etc and peruse a comparo with an Opel and a Ford in it and typically, the Opel loses. Granted, these are European Fords but the Fusion is obviously loosely based on the Euro Mondeo since the Mazda 6 no doubt is despite what the marekting mavens want you to think. (If in doubt note that the Mazda 6 is within inches of the Mondeo in every critical dimension and that the Mazda uses exactly the same kind of front and rear suspensions...both of which are fairly uncommon in fwd Fords and Mazdas with the rear suspension being quite unusual...coindence???...I for one do not believe in coincidence...I don't know which is more amazing that Ford floated the idea or that people believed it despite incredible eveidence to the contrary)

As for the DCX sedans, I too would love to see Ford answer these preferably with something wearing a Marcury badge. But, I seldom cease to be amazed at the hype these sedans draw when the Mustang easily outsells the most popular of them, the 300. Realistically speaking, I am unsure how much room there is here given that the 300 sells in modest numbers and that the Magnum and Charger are arguably retail failures. Surprisingly that last part has gotten very little press, but Charger fleet sales are huge and the Magnum has always moved very slowly. Nobody seems to know exactly in what numbers the Charger is moving down the fleet aisle, but I can tell you that the Charger owes a far higher percentage of it's sales to fleets than does the 300 according the DCX...and by Chrysler's own admission the 300 is selling in significantly larger numbers to fleets now than previously and it was at 21% plus a year ago. If the 300 is at 30% now, which seems optimistic, where is the Charger? 40%? 50%? I would love to see a proper Marauder rebirth to compete with the 300, but the market for these cars seems blown out of proportion and a Mercury offering would be more than enough.

As for SVT, while I love many of the cars they made my position on this is hardly a secret. SVT brought at least as many problems as benefits to the table and I could frankly care less wether my high performance Ford has an SVT badge on it or not. I have little doubt that the shakeup here was brought on by Mark Fields in an effort to show everyone who runs the show. If SVT can continue in some repsect and contribute as it should to the FoMoCo family so be it....if it is going to continue bringing ridiculous, self serving politics and strategy to the table I say so long.