Muscle Car Wars!
6/28/05, 05:26 PM
#41
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Originally posted by Webba@June 28, 2005, 2:14 PM
Josh I couldnt agre more. Someone made the comment earlier "the media has accepted it as a muscle car so why cant you" and to that I would say "screw the media". It is all in personal perception and I think the term muscle car is used too loosely and should be buried along with alot of other terms used nowadays. I would venture a large wage on alot of people out there buring down Bill Ford's home and hanging him by his n*ts if Ford had released the 05 Mustang as a 4 door. Doesnt seem quite right does it? IMO when I see the Charger, which is nice looking in its own right, I get irritated that they bring a car with a great history and bring it back with 4 doors and make it not even close to what it once was. Yea they coulda made a lame retro like the PT Cruiser but I just think if they were going to re-use the name they owed a little something to keeping it truer to its roots. Again it is a nice looking car, with plenty of sack but name it something totally different.
Josh I couldnt agre more. Someone made the comment earlier "the media has accepted it as a muscle car so why cant you" and to that I would say "screw the media". It is all in personal perception and I think the term muscle car is used too loosely and should be buried along with alot of other terms used nowadays. I would venture a large wage on alot of people out there buring down Bill Ford's home and hanging him by his n*ts if Ford had released the 05 Mustang as a 4 door. Doesnt seem quite right does it? IMO when I see the Charger, which is nice looking in its own right, I get irritated that they bring a car with a great history and bring it back with 4 doors and make it not even close to what it once was. Yea they coulda made a lame retro like the PT Cruiser but I just think if they were going to re-use the name they owed a little something to keeping it truer to its roots. Again it is a nice looking car, with plenty of sack but name it something totally different.
Finally someone who agrees with me. A four door performer still isn't a "muscle car" A muscle car was an era car. Certain things made it so. IMO the Ford Mustang is the only thing close to the true def. If the Nissan were American badged I'd put it there too.
I am not narrow minded, I am old fashioned and stubborn. IE the GT paint scheme, and Cragars on my GT Vert.
6/28/05, 05:29 PM
#42
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Originally posted by Josh69@June 28, 2005, 3:02 PM
Calling people narrow-minded because they relate a term that represents a very SPECIFIC genre of car from a very SPECIFIC era only to those SPECIFIC cars from that SPECIFIC era, is being completely narrow-minded in and of itself. IMHO.
Sure, these cars today are powerful and bold, without question, but I don't consider them to be true Muscle Cars, nor do I think 95% of the buying populace will either. Regardless of how time moves on, people will remain fairly steadfast in their interpretation of what a Muscle Car is. I think that fact shall prove itself over time. In 30 years, people will still call the real Muscle Cars as such, and will most likely consider the 4-dr Charger to be just another old sedan.
Certainly don't bash people that prefer to acknowledge the original and true Muscle Cars as such and prefer not to include cars made 30 years later as the same. The term as most everyone knows it is pretty specific about what they are talking about.
Just because a tree has mold on it, doesn't make it cheese. Get my drift?
Would ANYONE that has subscribed to this forum consider the mid-80's Dodge Charger to be a Muscle Car? I mean heck, you could get the Shelby Package on that thing too! That econobox was fine and modern enough for it's day, but it had zero significance and in 30 years, neither will the 4dr Charger of today.
Josh
Calling people narrow-minded because they relate a term that represents a very SPECIFIC genre of car from a very SPECIFIC era only to those SPECIFIC cars from that SPECIFIC era, is being completely narrow-minded in and of itself. IMHO.
Sure, these cars today are powerful and bold, without question, but I don't consider them to be true Muscle Cars, nor do I think 95% of the buying populace will either. Regardless of how time moves on, people will remain fairly steadfast in their interpretation of what a Muscle Car is. I think that fact shall prove itself over time. In 30 years, people will still call the real Muscle Cars as such, and will most likely consider the 4-dr Charger to be just another old sedan.
Certainly don't bash people that prefer to acknowledge the original and true Muscle Cars as such and prefer not to include cars made 30 years later as the same. The term as most everyone knows it is pretty specific about what they are talking about.
Just because a tree has mold on it, doesn't make it cheese. Get my drift?
Would ANYONE that has subscribed to this forum consider the mid-80's Dodge Charger to be a Muscle Car? I mean heck, you could get the Shelby Package on that thing too! That econobox was fine and modern enough for it's day, but it had zero significance and in 30 years, neither will the 4dr Charger of today.
Josh
Yea, well put. A true word-smith. Thank you.
6/28/05, 08:18 PM
#43
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Originally posted by dswhalen@June 28, 2005, 6:32 PM
:worship:
Yea, well put. A true word-smith. Thank you.
:worship:
Yea, well put. A true word-smith. Thank you.
BTW, It IS narrow-minded when you won't give any consideration to new ideas (aka a four door muscle car). Accepting something as an absolute belief (only a 2-door can be a muscle car) is what is known as dogma. How's that for word-smithing!
6/28/05, 09:52 PM
#44
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Originally posted by Josh69@June 28, 2005, 5:02 PM
Calling people narrow-minded because they relate a term that represents a very SPECIFIC genre of car from a very SPECIFIC era only to those SPECIFIC cars from that SPECIFIC era, is being completely narrow-minded in and of itself. IMHO.
Calling people narrow-minded because they relate a term that represents a very SPECIFIC genre of car from a very SPECIFIC era only to those SPECIFIC cars from that SPECIFIC era, is being completely narrow-minded in and of itself. IMHO.
OK, enough of this. How about we just leave at you and the rest of world just disagree on this point, OK?
6/28/05, 10:04 PM
#45
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I really don't get the hoopla of all this. Really, does it matter if it does have four doors? Can it still be a muscle car even if it does? I know I wasn't around during the 60s, but in case you don't recall, there are actually four door variants of Novas and Chevelles...heck, they even made a Chevelle station wagon! Now don't tell me those aren't muscle cars. Sure, the Charger would have look more "sporty" with two-doors and it is ugly as sin, but I still wouldn't discredit it as not being a muscle car.
6/29/05, 07:26 AM
#46
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That is my opinion, nothing more. I understand the point that Tom is trying to make, and you make a good argument. Do I think that the new SRT8 or the new R/T with some crazy wild colors can be a muscle car? Maybe, I'd like to see them and drive them first, but I think it should be considered a modern muscle car if anything, so as not to be confused with the original era of the true muscle cars.
6/29/05, 08:29 AM
#47
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Originally posted by Josh69@June 29, 2005, 8:29 AM
That is my opinion, nothing more. I understand the point that Tom is trying to make, and you make a good argument. Do I think that the new SRT8 or the new R/T with some crazy wild colors can be a muscle car? Maybe, I'd like to see them and drive them first, but I think it should be considered a modern muscle car if anything, so as not to be confused with the original era of the true muscle cars.
That is my opinion, nothing more. I understand the point that Tom is trying to make, and you make a good argument. Do I think that the new SRT8 or the new R/T with some crazy wild colors can be a muscle car? Maybe, I'd like to see them and drive them first, but I think it should be considered a modern muscle car if anything, so as not to be confused with the original era of the true muscle cars.
6/29/05, 08:52 AM
#48
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I don't get it -- why all the fuss about the "true" definition of "muscle car"? Is old, terrilble handling, fading paint, cheap interiors, etc. really that appealing? Why can't the definition of "muscle car" expand to modern days to mean "focus on powerful engine while sacrificing amenities to keep the price affordable, wrapped in a sporty and attractive package"?
Just one example of the "selctive memory" about cars in their "glory years":
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Featu...eline.promo.2.*
I can understand if some people had emotional attachments to certain cars when they were young, but this hysteria of over-glorifying old cars when most have never even seen one (in stock form), let alone driven one is beyond me.
Sure, they were great in their day. But this is a new day.
Just one example of the "selctive memory" about cars in their "glory years":
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Featu...eline.promo.2.*
I can understand if some people had emotional attachments to certain cars when they were young, but this hysteria of over-glorifying old cars when most have never even seen one (in stock form), let alone driven one is beyond me.
Sure, they were great in their day. But this is a new day.
6/29/05, 10:00 AM
#49
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I would venture to say it's 90% emotional for most guys, it is in my case. I am emotionally attached to my 60's cars. They handle like crap, they reek of fuel and exhaust fumes, they are hot, they aren't comfortable, they aren't reliable...but I love them just the same!
Hence the reason I joined this forum....I'm interested in owning the new Mustang because it has the emotional ties to my youth and my enthusiasm for loud, raucaus, stylized hot rod rides, with none of the disadvantages of owning a car from the 60's, and most of the advantages....with the right parts!
For that same reason, the Charger appeals to me because it is a sedan with some of those features...and I have a child and need room for stuff, which is why I have the S4. But, the S4 doesn't appeal to me emotionally, so it's most likely going to get traded in for something that gives me goosebumps when I floor it.
My Camaro does that, but with the rollcage and gears and stinky mess it exudes, it's not much fun to really drive around. It's more fun to start it up, rev it, **** off the neighbors, then wash it.
I want one I can drive all day, get more than 6mpg, and not pass out from the heat and fumes.
So if/when I drive the new 'Stang or the new Charger and it appeals to my senses and emotions like my old Camaro, then I'll embrace them for what they are, modern muscle cars.
Hence the reason I joined this forum....I'm interested in owning the new Mustang because it has the emotional ties to my youth and my enthusiasm for loud, raucaus, stylized hot rod rides, with none of the disadvantages of owning a car from the 60's, and most of the advantages....with the right parts!
For that same reason, the Charger appeals to me because it is a sedan with some of those features...and I have a child and need room for stuff, which is why I have the S4. But, the S4 doesn't appeal to me emotionally, so it's most likely going to get traded in for something that gives me goosebumps when I floor it.
My Camaro does that, but with the rollcage and gears and stinky mess it exudes, it's not much fun to really drive around. It's more fun to start it up, rev it, **** off the neighbors, then wash it.
I want one I can drive all day, get more than 6mpg, and not pass out from the heat and fumes.
So if/when I drive the new 'Stang or the new Charger and it appeals to my senses and emotions like my old Camaro, then I'll embrace them for what they are, modern muscle cars.
6/29/05, 10:10 AM
#50
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Originally posted by Rampant@June 29, 2005, 10:55 AM
I don't get it -- why all the fuss about the "true" definition of "muscle car"? Is old, terrilble handling, fading paint, cheap interiors, etc. really that appealing? Why can't the definition of "muscle car" expand to modern days to mean "focus on powerful engine while sacrificing amenities to keep the price affordable, wrapped in a sporty and attractive package"?
Just one example of the "selctive memory" about cars in their "glory years":
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Featu...eline.promo.2.*
I can understand if some people had emotional attachments to certain cars when they were young, but this hysteria of over-glorifying old cars when most have never even seen one (in stock form), let alone driven one is beyond me.
Sure, they were great in their day. But this is a new day.
I don't get it -- why all the fuss about the "true" definition of "muscle car"? Is old, terrilble handling, fading paint, cheap interiors, etc. really that appealing? Why can't the definition of "muscle car" expand to modern days to mean "focus on powerful engine while sacrificing amenities to keep the price affordable, wrapped in a sporty and attractive package"?
Just one example of the "selctive memory" about cars in their "glory years":
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Featu...eline.promo.2.*
I can understand if some people had emotional attachments to certain cars when they were young, but this hysteria of over-glorifying old cars when most have never even seen one (in stock form), let alone driven one is beyond me.
Sure, they were great in their day. But this is a new day.
7/1/05, 09:56 PM
#51
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We'll never agree on terminology, we all have our personal paradigms regarding that. I remember the first time I heard someone refer to a Porsche as a musclecar, I was like, "Wha?" I grew up when "musclecar" was an unmistable term that meant 442, GTO, Shelby, Boss 429, Eliminator, Hemi Cuda, GSX, Chevelle SS!!! I applaud Ford for bringing that age back to us with the Mustang, driving one brings back all the fond old memories without reminding me of all the lousy ones (brakes, handling, no A/C).
As for the Charger, kudos to Dodge. Way to go. But it ain't no musclecar. Not to me. I don't care how big the motor is, it's got FOUR friggin' doors and a flabby, slab-sided middle that looks just like a Checker cab as one of you pointed out already. I'm sure they'll sell a bunch because I see that ugly 300 all over the roads. But that thing is to the REAL Charger what the new GTO is to the REAL one.
That said, the frontal shot of the SRT8 is quite sexy. Hopefully they can pull that look off on the sides and rear too.
As for the Charger, kudos to Dodge. Way to go. But it ain't no musclecar. Not to me. I don't care how big the motor is, it's got FOUR friggin' doors and a flabby, slab-sided middle that looks just like a Checker cab as one of you pointed out already. I'm sure they'll sell a bunch because I see that ugly 300 all over the roads. But that thing is to the REAL Charger what the new GTO is to the REAL one.
That said, the frontal shot of the SRT8 is quite sexy. Hopefully they can pull that look off on the sides and rear too.
7/3/05, 03:49 PM
#52
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Originally posted by Tres Wright@July 1, 2005, 8:59 PM
We'll never agree on terminology, we all have our personal paradigms regarding that. I remember the first time I heard someone refer to a Porsche as a musclecar, I was like, "Wha?" I grew up when "musclecar" was an unmistable term that meant 442, GTO, Shelby, Boss 429, Eliminator, Hemi Cuda, GSX, Chevelle SS!!! I applaud Ford for bringing that age back to us with the Mustang, driving one brings back all the fond old memories without reminding me of all the lousy ones (brakes, handling, no A/C).
As for the Charger, kudos to Dodge. Way to go. But it ain't no musclecar. Not to me. I don't care how big the motor is, it's got FOUR friggin' doors and a flabby, slab-sided middle that looks just like a Checker cab as one of you pointed out already. I'm sure they'll sell a bunch because I see that ugly 300 all over the roads. But that thing is to the REAL Charger what the new GTO is to the REAL one.
That said, the frontal shot of the SRT8 is quite sexy. Hopefully they can pull that look off on the sides and rear too.
We'll never agree on terminology, we all have our personal paradigms regarding that. I remember the first time I heard someone refer to a Porsche as a musclecar, I was like, "Wha?" I grew up when "musclecar" was an unmistable term that meant 442, GTO, Shelby, Boss 429, Eliminator, Hemi Cuda, GSX, Chevelle SS!!! I applaud Ford for bringing that age back to us with the Mustang, driving one brings back all the fond old memories without reminding me of all the lousy ones (brakes, handling, no A/C).
As for the Charger, kudos to Dodge. Way to go. But it ain't no musclecar. Not to me. I don't care how big the motor is, it's got FOUR friggin' doors and a flabby, slab-sided middle that looks just like a Checker cab as one of you pointed out already. I'm sure they'll sell a bunch because I see that ugly 300 all over the roads. But that thing is to the REAL Charger what the new GTO is to the REAL one.
That said, the frontal shot of the SRT8 is quite sexy. Hopefully they can pull that look off on the sides and rear too.
I am old enough to remember the muscle car years and now I am just stubborn. I laugh at tuners.
7/6/05, 11:36 AM
#53
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I took a R/T charger fr a test drive yesterday. Here are my impressions of the car:
1) It looks great to me. It certianly does not look like a classic charger, but I like it none the less.
2) The car is nearly as fast as my mustang.
3) It is big and roomy. I am 6'-4" and was quite comfortable in the back seat even with the front seat adjusted to suit me.
4) It rides far better than the mustang. Smooth and quite. It has far less road noise than the mustang. About the only thing you really hear is the hemi.
5) As a big car, it does not handle quite as well as the mustang, but it is far better than I though it would be. Put a good driver in the charger, and a average driver in the mustang on a road course and the charger would have a good chance...
6) The car is far more practical than the mustang. I like the 4 doors. I am looking at the car for my work. The company requires that any company car be a 4 door. I soon hope to have the charger and the mustang....
Bottom line: If I had to pick one just to drive for fun, I would pick the mustang. If I had to pick one for every day use, I would pick the Charger....
Anyway, that is my opinion....
1) It looks great to me. It certianly does not look like a classic charger, but I like it none the less.
2) The car is nearly as fast as my mustang.
3) It is big and roomy. I am 6'-4" and was quite comfortable in the back seat even with the front seat adjusted to suit me.
4) It rides far better than the mustang. Smooth and quite. It has far less road noise than the mustang. About the only thing you really hear is the hemi.
5) As a big car, it does not handle quite as well as the mustang, but it is far better than I though it would be. Put a good driver in the charger, and a average driver in the mustang on a road course and the charger would have a good chance...
6) The car is far more practical than the mustang. I like the 4 doors. I am looking at the car for my work. The company requires that any company car be a 4 door. I soon hope to have the charger and the mustang....
Bottom line: If I had to pick one just to drive for fun, I would pick the mustang. If I had to pick one for every day use, I would pick the Charger....
Anyway, that is my opinion....
7/6/05, 12:02 PM
#54
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Originally posted by sranger@July 6, 2005, 11:39 AM
I took a R/T charger fr a test drive yesterday. Here are my impressions of the car:
1) It looks great to me. It certianly does not look like a classic charger, but I like it none the less.
2) The car is nearly as fast as my mustang.
3) It is big and roomy. I am 6'-4" and was quite comfortable in the back seat even with the front seat adjusted to suit me.
4) It rides far better than the mustang. Smooth and quite. It has far less road noise than the mustang. About the only thing you really hear is the hemi.
5) As a big car, it does not handle quite as well as the mustang, but it is far better than I though it would be. Put a good driver in the charger, and a average driver in the mustang on a road course and the charger would have a good chance...
6) The car is far more practical than the mustang. I like the 4 doors. I am looking at the car for my work. The company requires that any company car be a 4 door. I soon hope to have the charger and the mustang....
Bottom line: If I had to pick one just to drive for fun, I would pick the mustang. If I had to pick one for every day use, I would pick the Charger....
Anyway, that is my opinion....
I took a R/T charger fr a test drive yesterday. Here are my impressions of the car:
1) It looks great to me. It certianly does not look like a classic charger, but I like it none the less.
2) The car is nearly as fast as my mustang.
3) It is big and roomy. I am 6'-4" and was quite comfortable in the back seat even with the front seat adjusted to suit me.
4) It rides far better than the mustang. Smooth and quite. It has far less road noise than the mustang. About the only thing you really hear is the hemi.
5) As a big car, it does not handle quite as well as the mustang, but it is far better than I though it would be. Put a good driver in the charger, and a average driver in the mustang on a road course and the charger would have a good chance...
6) The car is far more practical than the mustang. I like the 4 doors. I am looking at the car for my work. The company requires that any company car be a 4 door. I soon hope to have the charger and the mustang....
Bottom line: If I had to pick one just to drive for fun, I would pick the mustang. If I had to pick one for every day use, I would pick the Charger....
Anyway, that is my opinion....
Either way, it is a great engine, and a great car if I had to have more of a family car/practical car! I'm just glad I don't have to
7/7/05, 01:01 AM
#55
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Originally posted by moc1976@July 6, 2005, 12:05 PM
Good assesment, I haven't seen a Charger in person yet, but in person cars are usually quite different than pictures or commercials. I know the Mustang looks much better in person, so I would imagine the Charger does too. Or it could look worse Either way, it is a great engine, and a great car if I had to have more of a family car/practical car! I'm just glad I don't have to
Good assesment, I haven't seen a Charger in person yet, but in person cars are usually quite different than pictures or commercials. I know the Mustang looks much better in person, so I would imagine the Charger does too. Or it could look worse
Either way, it is a great engine, and a great car if I had to have more of a family car/practical car! I'm just glad I don't have to
7/7/05, 06:53 AM
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Originally posted by sranger@July 6, 2005, 11:39 AM
Bottom line: If I had to pick one just to drive for fun, I would pick the mustang. If I had to pick one for every day use, I would pick the Charger....
Bottom line: If I had to pick one just to drive for fun, I would pick the mustang. If I had to pick one for every day use, I would pick the Charger....
7/7/05, 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by MustangFanatic@July 7, 2005, 6:56 AM
I don't really care what they call it, they just need to build it. Umm...let's see a black GT500 for the weekend and a Windveil blue "Torino" for the weekday commute...
I don't really care what they call it, they just need to build it. Umm...let's see a black GT500 for the weekend and a Windveil blue "Torino" for the weekday commute...
7/9/05, 12:58 AM
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Originally posted by SigMachi@June 17, 2005, 5:04 PM
I like the charger but I wish they would lose the truck grill and instead of have the crossed bars just leave it open. I think that would look a lot better.
I like the charger but I wish they would lose the truck grill and instead of have the crossed bars just leave it open. I think that would look a lot better.
I guess I am in the minority on the styling - I think it's great. I like the agressive front and th rear shoulders looks strong. I don't care about the 2 door vs 4 door "real Charger" argument thing. I might have bought it if the dealer was not such a slimy mo fo and if it were also like 5 grand less....I;m glad I didn't now boy, loving my Roush convertible!!! darn, now I gotta go find an excuse to go take a drive.....
)
7/9/05, 01:02 AM
#59
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Originally posted by MustangFanatic@July 7, 2005, 5:56 AM
I....Ford needs to abandon the Crown Vic ship and focus on a RWD car that interests customers other than my grandfather. I don't really care what they call it, they just need to build it. Umm...let's see a black GT500 for the weekend and a Windveil blue "Torino" for the weekday commute...
I....Ford needs to abandon the Crown Vic ship and focus on a RWD car that interests customers other than my grandfather. I don't really care what they call it, they just need to build it. Umm...let's see a black GT500 for the weekend and a Windveil blue "Torino" for the weekday commute...
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