GT500 weighs 3900 lbs, for the coupe!
12/15/05, 07:00 PM
#161
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JSaylor, this is how GM tests aero.
It cost a lot of money to ship a crew, equipment, and a car out to Germany. Aerodynamics is tested today in wind tunnels and using computer simulation.
It cost a lot of money to ship a crew, equipment, and a car out to Germany. Aerodynamics is tested today in wind tunnels and using computer simulation.
12/15/05, 07:06 PM
#162
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Originally posted by BC_Shelby@December 15, 2005, 12:31 AM
Toyota doesn't even use SRA in a Corolla for crying out loud, nor Honda in the Civic! I mean, c'mon here folks!)
Toyota doesn't even use SRA in a Corolla for crying out loud, nor Honda in the Civic! I mean, c'mon here folks!)
12/15/05, 07:11 PM
#163
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JSaylor....I am tired of posting, so we will have to agree to disagree. If the GT500 is tested at the Ring, we can end this debate.
C&D and R/T usually track test cars at Gingerman in South Haven, MI. It's a short course that tests handling and braking. I am sure we will see lap times posted. I have raced there, so I can give you some data pertaining to other cars. Low 1:30's are what the Z06 and GT ran there.
C&D and R/T usually track test cars at Gingerman in South Haven, MI. It's a short course that tests handling and braking. I am sure we will see lap times posted. I have raced there, so I can give you some data pertaining to other cars. Low 1:30's are what the Z06 and GT ran there.
12/15/05, 07:12 PM
#164
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Originally posted by max2000jp@December 15, 2005, 7:32 PM
http://www.bmwtransact.com/microsite/Nurburgring/
Here watch that video. Notice all the turns and the abuse on the chassis and brakes.
And why are we comparing an open cockpit 60's race car to street legal production cars? The CLK GTR flipped end over end at the Nurburgring, is it a bad race car? This is 2005 and aerodynamics have advanced a ton buddy.
Again, what are your credentials? How many race cars have you built? How many times have your tested cars at the Nurburgring? You sure sound like an expert
. Your assinine opinion discredits many well known car builders.
http://www.bmwtransact.com/microsite/Nurburgring/
Here watch that video. Notice all the turns and the abuse on the chassis and brakes.
And why are we comparing an open cockpit 60's race car to street legal production cars? The CLK GTR flipped end over end at the Nurburgring, is it a bad race car? This is 2005 and aerodynamics have advanced a ton buddy.
Again, what are your credentials? How many race cars have you built? How many times have your tested cars at the Nurburgring? You sure sound like an expert
. Your assinine opinion discredits many well known car builders.When I hear about Nurb testing, I hear it from high priced manufacturers who plan to see their high cost cars drive at high speeds on the autobahn.
He was dead on about Porsche. They don't do ALL their testing there, because it can't find everything they are looking for. They do their high speed testing there, because the track is a good indicator of high speed racing at a relatively long track (13+ minutes per lap).
I think it's great that the Z06 can turn a fast time at the track. However I don't understand why you think you will find far more creature comforts in a Corvette than a Mustang. 2 seats instead of 4. An optional nav system. A pain in the hiney electronic door handle. One extra gear in both stick and auto. Plastics that are really no better than that of the Mustang. And a HUD...ooooo. A Mustang with it's more compliant ride, and better room would make a better daily drive anyday.
I just don't see why there needs to be a arguement at all. So the price increase over a GT/GT500, and C6/Z06 can be somewhat compared. Do you really think for 40K Ford can afford to put a magnesium engine cradle, and balsawood floorboards surrounded carbon fiber in a Mustang? No. But Chevy can at 65K.
What I am saying is, you pay what you get for. I understand you dissapointment with the evolution from concept to production. Most everybody is. But to demand similar benefits from a car costing 25K more is a little ridiculous.
As far as the IRS is concerned, can't we give the car a chance, once we know the final specs, before calling it a piece of trash?
Edited for spelling...it was a little rough.
12/15/05, 07:15 PM
#165
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Originally posted by bigred0383@December 15, 2005, 8:15 PM
What exactly about his opinion do you consider assinine. He seems to have a well thought out, well researched arguement.
When I hear about Nurb testing, I hear it from high priced manufacturers who plan to see their high cost cars drive at high speeds on the autobahn.
He was dead on about Porsche. They don't do ALL their testing there, because it can't find everything they are looking for. They do their high speed testing there, because the track is a good indicator of high speed racing at a relatively long track (13+ minutes per lap).
I think it's great that the Z06 can turn a fast time at the track. However I don't understand why you think you will find far more creature comforts in a Corvette than a Mustang. 2 seats instead of 4. An optional nav system. A pain in the hiney electronic door handle. One extra gear in both stick and auto. Plastics that are really no better than that of the Mustang. And a HUD...ooooo. A Mustang with it's more compliant ride, and better room would make a better daily drive anyday.
I just don't see why there needs to be a arguement at all. So the price increase over a GT/GT500, and C6/Z06 can be somewhat compared. Do you really think for 40K Ford can afford to put magnesium engine cradles, and balsawood floorboards surrounded in a Mustang? No. But Chevy can at 65K.
What I am saying is, you pay what you get for. I understand you dissapointment with the evolution from concept to production. Most everybody is. But to demand similar benefits from a car costing 25K more is a little ridiculous.
As far as the IRS is concerned, can't we give the car a chance, once we know the final specs, before calling it a piece of trash?
What exactly about his opinion do you consider assinine. He seems to have a well thought out, well researched arguement.
When I hear about Nurb testing, I hear it from high priced manufacturers who plan to see their high cost cars drive at high speeds on the autobahn.
He was dead on about Porsche. They don't do ALL their testing there, because it can't find everything they are looking for. They do their high speed testing there, because the track is a good indicator of high speed racing at a relatively long track (13+ minutes per lap).
I think it's great that the Z06 can turn a fast time at the track. However I don't understand why you think you will find far more creature comforts in a Corvette than a Mustang. 2 seats instead of 4. An optional nav system. A pain in the hiney electronic door handle. One extra gear in both stick and auto. Plastics that are really no better than that of the Mustang. And a HUD...ooooo. A Mustang with it's more compliant ride, and better room would make a better daily drive anyday.
I just don't see why there needs to be a arguement at all. So the price increase over a GT/GT500, and C6/Z06 can be somewhat compared. Do you really think for 40K Ford can afford to put magnesium engine cradles, and balsawood floorboards surrounded in a Mustang? No. But Chevy can at 65K.
What I am saying is, you pay what you get for. I understand you dissapointment with the evolution from concept to production. Most everybody is. But to demand similar benefits from a car costing 25K more is a little ridiculous.
As far as the IRS is concerned, can't we give the car a chance, once we know the final specs, before calling it a piece of trash?
I am tired of this debate and when production test numbers come in, we can reference this thread.
12/15/05, 07:16 PM
#166
Originally posted by max2000jp@December 15, 2005, 8:51 PM
Aerodynamics would have been a problem in any track where the 289 Cobra could reach 150. Wouldn't it? The Cobra IS fundamentally different than the GT500. Are you that blinded? The reason why the GT500 would do poorly is weight, handling, and lack of IRS.
You stated that the Nurburgring is very smooth, which IS INCORRECT. The track is fairly bumpy in parts and the actual surface changes throughout the track. You really need use Google a bit more
Again, why do you think that Team Corvette chose the Nurburgring to test the C6 and Z06? Aerodynamics(maybe they made minor tweaks)? It's much cheaper to test that in a wind tunnel, which GM has at its test sight. They tested the Vette on the Nurburgring to test the suspension, brakes, chassis, and engine.
Aerodynamics would have been a problem in any track where the 289 Cobra could reach 150. Wouldn't it? The Cobra IS fundamentally different than the GT500. Are you that blinded? The reason why the GT500 would do poorly is weight, handling, and lack of IRS.
You stated that the Nurburgring is very smooth, which IS INCORRECT. The track is fairly bumpy in parts and the actual surface changes throughout the track. You really need use Google a bit more
Again, why do you think that Team Corvette chose the Nurburgring to test the C6 and Z06? Aerodynamics(maybe they made minor tweaks)? It's much cheaper to test that in a wind tunnel, which GM has at its test sight. They tested the Vette on the Nurburgring to test the suspension, brakes, chassis, and engine.
If you want to argue semantics the Nurb is smooth compared to what Americans would consider bumpy. Yes, it has some bumps, not nearly enough to make a huge difference in a well sorted car wether IRS or SRA, and it is very smooth by American road surface standards. The surface changes, reverse camber corners, and long, protracted swells and dips on straights that give the track most of it's character would pose few issues for a SRA car that don't also trouble IRS cars. In fact, on surface changes the SRA's characteristic perfect toe and camber would likely prove beneficial
Why GM tested the Z06 at the Nurb is obvious. And, once again, this does not make it a perfect testbed for every vehicle. As I said above the GT500 would be most hindered by it's under-tired nature and the fact that it is not an aerodynamic vehicle. Lower weight is always good, but realism is better. As I said above the real problem is skinny tires and brick-like aerodynamics which will make the GT500 look slower than it is.
For an example of how poorly live axle cars do at the Nurb, Chevy's own Cobalt SS uses what is effectively a live rear axle, and which also provides the Cobalt SS with one of the best slalom times of any car built. Typically, a live axle is more of a hindrance on a fwd car than a rwd car, but the SS makes it work. Chevy also tested this car at the Nurb (God knows why) where this suspension system was apparently perfected. Even with a 60/40 weight balance the car still slaloms above 70mph...pretty good performance for a live axle car that can't handle the Nurb's horrible bumps.
edit: I too have to leave the discussion, but I lok forward to coming back to the thread when GT500 numbers are in.
12/15/05, 07:19 PM
#167
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Originally posted by max2000jp@December 15, 2005, 8:18 PM
Read my post above: FYI....A 13 minute Nurburgring lap is very slow. The C6 Z06 ran it in 7:40.
I am tired of this debate and when production test numbers come in, we can reference this thread.
Read my post above: FYI....A 13 minute Nurburgring lap is very slow. The C6 Z06 ran it in 7:40.
I am tired of this debate and when production test numbers come in, we can reference this thread.
By the way, I read ALL your posts, and you didn't answer ANY of my questions. I feel cheated!
12/15/05, 07:20 PM
#168
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I quit reading the posts a long time ago. They are too long and filled with too much feather ruffling. Move on.
A few points:
The Z06 is hands down a better factory car. It outshines much of its class at a fraction of the cost.
The GT500 is not in its class. If you put the $25k difference into chassis and suspension parts, you could get real close in performance.
If the nurburgring is the place to test cars because there is nowhere like it in America, then what does it matter? If nowhere exists like it in the US, we won't be driving it anyway. Might as well test on the streets, dragstrips and short courses that most of us will be driving on.
A few points:
The Z06 is hands down a better factory car. It outshines much of its class at a fraction of the cost.
The GT500 is not in its class. If you put the $25k difference into chassis and suspension parts, you could get real close in performance.
If the nurburgring is the place to test cars because there is nowhere like it in America, then what does it matter? If nowhere exists like it in the US, we won't be driving it anyway. Might as well test on the streets, dragstrips and short courses that most of us will be driving on.
12/15/05, 07:23 PM
#169
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Originally posted by bigred0383@December 15, 2005, 8:22 PM
Whoops, I messed up my numbers, you're right.
By the way, I read ALL your posts, and you didn't answer ANY of my questions. I feel cheated!
Whoops, I messed up my numbers, you're right.
By the way, I read ALL your posts, and you didn't answer ANY of my questions. I feel cheated!
12/15/05, 07:28 PM
#170
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I wouldn't want you to scroll up. Let me cut and paste.
What exactly about his opinion do you consider assinine. He seems to have a well thought out, well researched arguement.
I think it's great that the Z06 can turn a fast time at the track. However I don't understand why you think you will find far more creature comforts in a Corvette than a Mustang. 2 seats instead of 4. An optional nav system. A pain in the hiney electronic door handle. One extra gear in both stick and auto. Plastics that are really no better than that of the Mustang. And a HUD...ooooo. A Mustang with it's more compliant ride, and better room would make a better daily drive anyday.
I just don't see why there needs to be a arguement at all. So the price increase over a GT/GT500, and C6/Z06 can be somewhat compared. Do you really think for 40K Ford can afford to put a magnesium engine cradle, and balsawood floorboards surrounded carbon fiber in a Mustang? No. But Chevy can at 65K.
Ok so there were 4 questions total, the second didn't have a question mark, kind of a statement with a hoped response, and you answered the fourth so I chose not to include it here.
What exactly about his opinion do you consider assinine. He seems to have a well thought out, well researched arguement.
I think it's great that the Z06 can turn a fast time at the track. However I don't understand why you think you will find far more creature comforts in a Corvette than a Mustang. 2 seats instead of 4. An optional nav system. A pain in the hiney electronic door handle. One extra gear in both stick and auto. Plastics that are really no better than that of the Mustang. And a HUD...ooooo. A Mustang with it's more compliant ride, and better room would make a better daily drive anyday.
I just don't see why there needs to be a arguement at all. So the price increase over a GT/GT500, and C6/Z06 can be somewhat compared. Do you really think for 40K Ford can afford to put a magnesium engine cradle, and balsawood floorboards surrounded carbon fiber in a Mustang? No. But Chevy can at 65K.
Ok so there were 4 questions total, the second didn't have a question mark, kind of a statement with a hoped response, and you answered the fourth so I chose not to include it here.
12/15/05, 07:40 PM
#171
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Originally posted by bigred0383@December 15, 2005, 8:31 PM
I wouldn't want you to scroll up. Let me cut and paste.
What exactly about his opinion do you consider assinine. He seems to have a well thought out, well researched arguement.
I think it's great that the Z06 can turn a fast time at the track. However I don't understand why you think you will find far more creature comforts in a Corvette than a Mustang. 2 seats instead of 4. An optional nav system. A pain in the hiney electronic door handle. One extra gear in both stick and auto. Plastics that are really no better than that of the Mustang. And a HUD...ooooo. A Mustang with it's more compliant ride, and better room would make a better daily drive anyday.
I just don't see why there needs to be a arguement at all. So the price increase over a GT/GT500, and C6/Z06 can be somewhat compared. Do you really think for 40K Ford can afford to put a magnesium engine cradle, and balsawood floorboards surrounded carbon fiber in a Mustang? No. But Chevy can at 65K.
Ok so there were 4 questions total, the second didn't have a question mark, kind of a statement with a hoped response, and you answered the fourth so I chose not to include it here.
I wouldn't want you to scroll up. Let me cut and paste.
What exactly about his opinion do you consider assinine. He seems to have a well thought out, well researched arguement.
I think it's great that the Z06 can turn a fast time at the track. However I don't understand why you think you will find far more creature comforts in a Corvette than a Mustang. 2 seats instead of 4. An optional nav system. A pain in the hiney electronic door handle. One extra gear in both stick and auto. Plastics that are really no better than that of the Mustang. And a HUD...ooooo. A Mustang with it's more compliant ride, and better room would make a better daily drive anyday.
I just don't see why there needs to be a arguement at all. So the price increase over a GT/GT500, and C6/Z06 can be somewhat compared. Do you really think for 40K Ford can afford to put a magnesium engine cradle, and balsawood floorboards surrounded carbon fiber in a Mustang? No. But Chevy can at 65K.
Ok so there were 4 questions total, the second didn't have a question mark, kind of a statement with a hoped response, and you answered the fourth so I chose not to include it here.
1. The Nurburgring. It is a place to test high speeds, but it also has corners. It's one of the world's best proving grounds for testing how well a suspension, brakes, and chassis work together. Aero was a good point, but there are tracks here in the US where the GT500 could hit high speeds.
2. Dual Zone Climate(Automatic), HUD, Telescoping wheel, Bose Stereo, Keyless start, IMO Nicer seats (Preforated and Contrasting Stitching). You mentioned Navi. The rear seats in my car are useless(I am 6'2"), except for small children. Basically the rear seats are there for insurance. The C6 is fairly roomy and has a decent amount of storage space behind the seats.
3. The EVO MR uses CF, an Aluminum roof, and lightweight BBS Wheels. Plus Recaro Seats
MSRP ~35K
12/15/05, 07:54 PM
#172
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Originally posted by max2000jp@December 15, 2005, 8:43 PM
Okay, I'll answer. I was trying to calm the tone down in here.
1. The Nurburgring. It is a place to test high speeds, but it also has corners. It's one of the world's best proving grounds for testing how well a suspension, brakes, and chassis work together. Aero was a good point, but there are tracks here in the US where the GT500 could hit high speeds.
2. Dual Zone Climate(Automatic), HUD, Telescoping wheel, Bose Stereo, Keyless start, IMO Nicer seats (Preforated and Contrasting Stitching). You mentioned Navi. The rear seats in my car are useless(I am 6'2"), except for small children. Basically the rear seats are there for insurance. The C6 is fairly roomy and has a decent amount of storage space behind the seats.
3. The EVO MR uses CF, an Aluminum roof, and lightweight BBS Wheels. Plus Recaro Seats MSRP ~35K
Okay, I'll answer. I was trying to calm the tone down in here.
1. The Nurburgring. It is a place to test high speeds, but it also has corners. It's one of the world's best proving grounds for testing how well a suspension, brakes, and chassis work together. Aero was a good point, but there are tracks here in the US where the GT500 could hit high speeds.
2. Dual Zone Climate(Automatic), HUD, Telescoping wheel, Bose Stereo, Keyless start, IMO Nicer seats (Preforated and Contrasting Stitching). You mentioned Navi. The rear seats in my car are useless(I am 6'2"), except for small children. Basically the rear seats are there for insurance. The C6 is fairly roomy and has a decent amount of storage space behind the seats.
3. The EVO MR uses CF, an Aluminum roof, and lightweight BBS Wheels. Plus Recaro Seats
MSRP ~35KKeyless remote (which I think is a fad, but who knows) is a personal preference as is the auto temp.I am not a Bose fan AT ALL. I do however like all the rear room behind the seats/hatch, but I am not sure it has more room than the backseat/trunk of a Stang.
Other than interior appointments, what else does the Evo use CF for?Plus the MR is even more of a stripped down racer than the Z06, while the GT500 will keep all the comfort features (plus its far smaller).
Edited for spelling, yet again. My brain is fried from finals.
12/15/05, 08:04 PM
#173
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Originally posted by bigred0383@December 15, 2005, 8:57 PM
Keyless remote (which I think is a fad, but who knows) is a personal preference as is the auto temp.I am not a Bose fan AT ALL. I do however like all the rear room behind the seats/hatch, but I am not sure it has more room than the backseat/trunk of a Stang.
Other than interior appointments, what else does the Evo use CF for?Plus the MR is even more of a stripped down racer than the X06, while the GT500 will keep all the comfort features (plus its far smaller).
Keyless remote (which I think is a fad, but who knows) is a personal preference as is the auto temp.I am not a Bose fan AT ALL. I do however like all the rear room behind the seats/hatch, but I am not sure it has more room than the backseat/trunk of a Stang.
Other than interior appointments, what else does the Evo use CF for?Plus the MR is even more of a stripped down racer than the X06, while the GT500 will keep all the comfort features (plus its far smaller).
The EVO MR uses CF on the Wing and Vortex Generator. The EVO is pretty stripped down, but it does have a lot of performance name brand goodies. Brembo Brakes, Recaro seats, Bilstein shocks, and Forged BBS Wheels. Pretty good bang for the buck at an MSRP of 35K.
12/15/05, 08:10 PM
#174
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Originally posted by bob@December 15, 2005, 7:09 PM
That probably has more to do with the fact that a vehicle fitted with IRS can squeeze out a bit more interior volume while offering a nice soft ride, rather than any real performance benefit (other than in the BS world of bench racing).
That probably has more to do with the fact that a vehicle fitted with IRS can squeeze out a bit more interior volume while offering a nice soft ride, rather than any real performance benefit (other than in the BS world of bench racing).
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Using SRA in ANY performance vehicle in this day and age is like bringing a flint-lock to a Glock party.
12/15/05, 08:32 PM
#176
Originally posted by TomServo92@December 15, 2005, 10:33 PM
Such heated arguments! I can't wait to see what it'll be like when we have actual performance numbers to discuss!
Such heated arguments! I can't wait to see what it'll be like when we have actual performance numbers to discuss!
12/15/05, 08:54 PM
#177
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I have a headache after reading all of that. I'll just wait until the car comes out and the numbers start getting posted.
Honestly I could care less about how great the Z06 is as I will not be getting one. I prefer to have a back seat, more trunk space etc. Now if any of you like it more to than the Shelby than more power to you. That is what I love about the variety of vehicles we have out today. Anyone can find something they like....
Just 24 more days and we can see what the final production vehicle will be like. That and we can see the proto Challenger and Camaro as well, so you will have more variety to debate over.
12/16/05, 04:55 AM
#178
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Yeah, this is all pretty silly. When you consider all the children suffering and dying in Africa right now, for example, arguments like the ones in this thread seem pretty trite.
12/16/05, 09:57 AM
#179
AKA 1 BULLITT------------ Legacy TMS Member
Headaches, suffering, and death. Holy Superman, Batman. It's Season's Greetings from the Bizarro world! 
Now, back to our regular scheduled program.
Now, back to our regular scheduled program.
