rhumb

A thought regarding the economics of the SRA over IRS decision.

If the IRS really would have cost $5K to implement as wildly touted by Ford, then shouldn't the GT500's price premium over the base GT thus be $5K LESS than the '03-'04 IRS Cobra's $8.5K premium was over the GT? Other than the lack of an IRS, the GT500 and Cobra are spec'd VERY similarly in overall content beyond their GT siblings.

Sure, the 5.4 motor is a bit bigger, but its basically just a tall-deck, stroked version of the 2003-4 Cobra 4.6 motor and ought the cost approximately the same to manufacturer, what with no fancy new technologies, features or materials. Throw in an extra $100 bucks for the extra bit of iron in the tall block 5.4 casting and call it even after that. At a 475hp rating, the 5.4's specific output is only a bit better than the 390hp '03's 4.6: 88hp/l vs 85hp/l.

Everything else in the GT500 seems pretty much an equivalent, or even slightly less in some areas, of an upgrade as compared to the '03-'04 Cobra.

So given that, then why isn't the GT500's price rumors hovering closer the $30K rather than $40K level? Just where is the additional $5K price premium (relative to the '03'04's premium) to be found?

Year -- GT -- SVT -- $ Premium -- % Premium
ā€˜98 -- $20.2 -- $25.7 -- $5.5 -- 27%
ā€˜01 -- $23.9 -- $28.6 -- $4.7 -- 20%
ā€˜03 -- $24.9 -- $33.4 -- $8.5 -- 34%
ā€™07 -- $27 -- $40 -- $13.5 -- 51%
ā€™07 -- $27 -- $37.5 -- $10.6 -- 42%

Major SVT Features:
ā€™98 - Al block, N.A. 4.6, live axle.
ā€™01 - Al block, N.A. 4.6, IRS.
ā€™03 - Fe block, S.C. 4.6, IRS.
ā€™07 - Fe block, S.C. 5.4, live axle.

Notes:
ā€™07 GT inflation adjusted.
ā€™07 GT500 ā€“ two price estimates (hi/lo)

The difference in price premium between the ā€™98 live axle Cobra and the ā€˜01 IRS Cobra actually went DOWN $.8K even factoring in the ā€™99 refreshing, IRS and more HP.

The difference in price premium between the ā€™01 N.A. Cobra and the ā€˜03 S.C. Cobra went up $3.8K. They both had IRS, while the ā€™03 added a supercharger but went to a cheaper Fe block.

The difference in price premium between the ā€™03 N.A. Cobra and a $40K ā€˜07 GT500 goes up a whopping $5K for a 51% price premium over the standard GT. This despite the GT500 doing away with an IRS and otherwise quite similar in overall content and general configuration.

Anyway, the highly paraded cost/value side of the discussion just doesn't add up unless the GT500 actually ends up costing more along the lines of a 25% premium, i.e. $6.75K over a $27K GT for a price of around $33.75K.

muscleman

i think the GT 500 is worth 39k if thats what it goes for. As for it costing 5k for Ford to put IRS on it, I dont buy that and never will. It sounds like they are trying to over justify their decision. I do think this new Cobra is alot cooler than past Cobras when compared to the regular GT, so Id be willing to fork over the higher premium.

Loch

Well equipped Mustang GT = $28,000 MSRP
Shelby Cobra GT 500 = $40,000 Est. MSRP

Things needed on the GT to bring it up to what would be desired:
Painted on stripes = $2,000 more if rocker panel stripes where added.
Larger wheels and tires = $2,000
Performance exhaust system = $1,500
Lowering kit = $400

The Shelby comes with all of the above standard, plus the fact that it has 500 HP, an increased handling package, updated interior with added leather and says Shelby on it.

So the Shelby is about a $6,000 premium over the GT and will hold itā€™s value better. The aftermarket stuff added to the GT to bring it up to a desirable level will hold no extra value if sold.

The only logical conclusion that can be drawn from this is to buy the Shelby Cobra GT 500.

1 COBRA

$37K is more than reasonable, for all parties concerned.

rhumb

Obviously, a lot of the value people will be willing to pay is subjective. But a more subjective accounting doesn't seem to justify the ~$40K figure being floated about. Anything above $33K just reeks of a manufacturer's version of ADM - adjusted dealer markup.

Of course, many people will gladly pay $5+K ADMs for their desired ride, but perhaps if we get a more objective analysis of the GT500's costs (as opposed to perceived value), then perhaps an impact can be had on Ford as they work to establish a selling price.

I don't necessarily want to be a skunk under Ford's tent, but I think a fair discussion and analysis of actual costs and values will only benefit us, the buyers. If Ford's going to make such a braying of costs saved and value represented by not including such things as IRS, then fine and fair enough, but let us, the customers, truely see that cost savings as actually reflected in the price.

But at $40K, or even $35K, given their choices to decontent relative to the '04 Cobra, Ford really needs to more clearly and objectively show just what else was added to justify the GT500's large price premium increase. If foregoing the IRS did save $5K like they say, or even half that, then lets see that $3.5-5K taken of the price premium over the GT.

rhumb

But remember too, so did the '03 Cobra (minus stripes) over the standard GT, and yet it was only $8.5K dearer, not $13.5K.

And yes, while the motor will make a very impressive 450+hp, there is little to nothing technically that would indicate that it cost Ford any substantial amount of added money to manufacture relative to the very similar, if smaller displacement, '03 4.6 Cobra. Specific outputs, overall design, materials and design/technical features are very, very close to the 4.6 actually with the added HP being mostly a natural result of its greater displacement, not some new or additional expensive technical features.

jsaylor

Well, quite frankly you are making assumptions regarding content that we simply don't know all of the answers to yet. A few items that are going to add money to the new GT500's bottom line that we do know the answers to and you left out are.......

The brakes on the GT500 shown at NYIAS are far beyond what we saw on the 03-04 Cobra. No doubt, the brakes we saw on the GT500 would be ridiculously expensive if you had to buy them through the aftermarket yourself. IMO they would likely be a couple grand more at least than a package similar to what the 03-04 Cobra came with. Knowing this I have little doubt the difference in cost to Ford could easily be a grand or more.

You oversimplified the story regarding the motor just a bit too. The heads on this motor are shared with the GT and nothing else, whereas the 03-04 car had the beneft of using a head utilized on several vehicles. If the car gets the twin screw this costs more than a rootes does too. (Yes, before somebody says it I have heard the rumours about the car getting the rootes blower, we'll have to wait and see)

What we already know tells us the motor is more expensive, but this is an area where we don't yet know everything and there could be even more. IMO it would be far more accurate to call this a detuned GT motor than a tall-deck Cobra motor.

I am also at a loss as to why you claim the car is slightly less of an upgrade in any area other than the IRS. Other than mirrors that are not painted and your missing IRS virtually every other area of the car would appear to be a significant upgrade over the 03-04 Cobra.

muscleman

Yeah Brembo brakes are REALLY expensive. Also, ther eis certainly a little bit of the Harley Davidson factor here. The car is just so damm cool, people will pay the money.

rhumb

Yes, there is a give and take in features of course. And yes, this whole point is somewhat general. But broadly, I think my point still stands. A price premium rising from $8.5 to $13.5 represents a huge increase.

The brakes are surely more expensive than the '03's. But the '03's were themselves a substantial upgrade over the GT's, so the GT500s don't represent such singular explanation for the huge discrepancy and probably not on the order of a grand of added cost.

As for the motor, yes, its does seem to have the GT(40) heads, but even these aren't all that different in techical features or manufacturing complexity over any other 4V Mod motor heads in past Cobras. A Lysholm vs Roots SC would add some cost there, but how much -- $500 differential? Anyone know of some Lysholm/Roots cost comparisons we could use to gain a grasp of what this might actually be?

As for other upgrades over a GT, relative to an '03 Cobra?

Body: very similar level (nose, hood, spoiler, rear facia)
Interior: very similar level (seats, trim, instruments. Does add more leather (dask, door panels, ctr arm rest) but the seats are closer to stock GT items than were the '03s)
Engine: Similar (as per above discussion, it seems more like a tall block '03 with GT(40) heads than an Fe block detuned Gt(40) motor. A Lysholm rather than Roots SC would add more)
Suspension: Less. The GT500 is more of a tuned GT suspension on the par with a pre-'99 Cobra rather than the extensive upgrade the post '99 IRS Cobras were.
Brakes: A bit more of an upgrade, add $500?
Wheels/Tires: Very similar in size. Possible 19"s would be a bit more of one.

Again, while there is a bit of give and take on specific features, I still feel that, in the aggragate, the GT500 represents somewhat less of an overall upgrade over a GT than did the '03-'04 Cobra and certainly not one that would, on a per feature basis, justify an additional $5K in price premium (don't forget the putative $5k Ford says they saved by ditching the IRS, where'd that go?).

Rampant

Umm, we will have to wait until final numbers (and specs) come in. If it is "near $40k", it could be $37k (heck of a deal) or $43k (not so much a good deal anymore, especially if the Whipple and Brembos don't make it to production).

It is also difficult to compare it to past models, as there are many other variables (5.4 v 4.6, twin screw v. eaton (assuming it makes production), Brembos (assuiming they make production), Shelby name, etc.).

However, what I would do is compare it to the standard GT. If it comes in at $40k, is it worth the extra $12k? For those that would spend it in mods anyway, it probably would be -- especially considering it comes with a warranty.

rhumb

Precisely! So let's hold Ford's feet to the fire a bit as they make their pricing calculations so we don't end up paying a Harley'esque "AMM" (additional manufacturer markup) for the GT500.

And what's all this blather then about Mustang value that Thai-Tang is spouting at every opportunity to justify leaving off features if on the other hand, Ford's just going to jack the price, and us customers in the wallet, anyway? Seems somewhat hypocritical at best and a license to gouge at worst.

jsaylor

Here is another area where I can assure you that you are drastically under-estimating what it cost Ford to perform the upgrades e saw on the show car.

I used to work for a tier one interior/seat supplier and changing all those interior items to leather (dash, door panels, armrest) for this car and this car only would be ridiculously expensive. I can guaruntee that the price of the leather dash would be a jaw dropper to anybody on this forum.

And if the seats are actually different than the GT seats then the price will reflect this regardless of how they look. Simply looking similar may be a dissapointment to owners but it wont lower the cost. Depending on what lurks under the skin of those buckets they could easily be more expensive than the old Cobra's seats were.

When people try to guess what these kinds of things cost Ford I am inclined to chime in because of my experience with JCI. Often times these things simply don;t cost what people think they will.

ArkAngelx3

Who cares. Buy it and enjoy it, or Don't. Seems simple enough to me.

Zc527

if the gt500 is under 40k, my dad will defenantly get 1

200mphcobra

SHELBY = $$$$

rhumb

Well, as nice as it is, I could easily do without those lux features if it jacks the price THAT much.

As for the seats, according to, I believe, Ford's own description, the only differences are the colors (red inserts) and slightly firmer side bolster padding (same shape apparently). Don't see much added expense there.

It is hard or impossible to do a piece by piece analysis. So we're left with doing a comparitive analysis and I think using the earlier Cobra's does make a valid if imperfect benchmark to approach this. Again, if the price relative to the earlier Cobra's was approximately the same, as is the GT's is to the earlier models, then no red flags would raise in my mind. But the huge increase does, naturally, make me want to ask, "why?" Maybe they can justify all of it (presuming $37-40K), but I just don't see it.

Hopefully, the press and other will press this point a bit more, well, pointedly with Ford. The worst that could happen is that either they can't justify such a steep tariff and price accordingly, i.e. much cheaper GT500s for us (woohoo!) Or they do better indicate (or add?) the appropriate content that does justify it (beyond simple manufacturer greed.)

But I think all of us ought to, and Ford should expect, that we do hold them to a high standard and look at their products very discerningly. If they justify their price and value, fantastic. If they can't, then I want to know that even more so.

rhumb

Then strip off his name if it adds more the $25 bucks to the bottom line. That's about all I'm willing to pay to stroke ol' Shelby's ego if there ain't a fully price commensurate level of actual content to go with his name.

rhumb

Yeah, if you don't mind being (potentially) gouged at the bottom line. I mean, its only money right and those poor suffering manufactures need all they can squeeze from us fat-cat customers. Of course, if I win the lottery tomorrow, then I could afford to buy the Cobra at whatever price Ford deigns to charge. Otherwise, my more modest, working-man's budget necessitates a bit more care in how I splurge.

200mphcobra

Then strip off his name if it adds more the $25 bucks to the bottom line. That's about all I'm willing to pay to stroke ol' Shelby's ego if there ain't a fully price commensurate level of actual content to go with his name.
[/b][/quote]
I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall when his compensation was discussed.

holderca1

Since we don't know a whole lot about the production version of the Cobra, and we don't even know the pricing. Has anyone from Ford said somewhere near $40k? I haven't seen it, if it's true, I have only seen it mentioned as rumor by forum members. Besides how many cars with 450 or more hp can you buy for less than $50k?