2006 Cobra Confirmation
4/6/04, 02:31 PM
#41
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The STi has 300 hp...many modified AWD cars are pushing 400 hp without breaking driveline components. BTW, I own a moddified WRX.
Also, AWD racecars are banned from many track races because they have an unfair advantage over RWD or FWD cars. They win too much!
Also, AWD racecars are banned from many track races because they have an unfair advantage over RWD or FWD cars. They win too much!
4/6/04, 02:53 PM
#42
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All I know is a 500hp Cobra would be easy for Ford to make. Heck the current Cobra is underrated, and the power of a few mods bumps them to that number in a short amount of time.
I agree, we need a very tough RWD IRS and the Cobra will be KING!!!
Thats the car I am waiting for to add to my stable!
I agree, we need a very tough RWD IRS and the Cobra will be KING!!!
Thats the car I am waiting for to add to my stable!
4/6/04, 02:59 PM
#43
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He never mentioned the STI, I did. I dont know of anyone that pushes 400 hp on a modded car that does not have driveline problems. That is the number one service parts request Subaru has right now, Diffs, axles, trannys and engines. All because someone thinks that they should be able to squeeze 400 ponies out of our vehicle we designed to put out 227. I have a 04WRX, and an 98 Eclipse GSX and am a member of Club DSM also. I have never ever seen anyone who ran 400 ponies for any amount of time an not have drivetrain issues. I'm not calling you a liar or anything like that, I just have never heard anyone try and say that before.
But... the point I am making is that in order to do AWD and do it well for 500 ponies you need 3 LSDs. Would you rather have LSDs or open diffs? That is the point. Anyway ford probably wont build it, so we need not worry.
But... the point I am making is that in order to do AWD and do it well for 500 ponies you need 3 LSDs. Would you rather have LSDs or open diffs? That is the point. Anyway ford probably wont build it, so we need not worry.
4/6/04, 03:23 PM
#44
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A couple of points. First, the current Corvette Z06 is putting down 405 hp in a car that weighs 3100 lbs with no apparent traction issues. The rumoured C6 Z06 supposedly has 500 hp and nobody is talking about AWD.
The 2005 Mustang GT is supposed to weigh in at around 3400 lbs. A supercharged 5.4 would probably up that weight a bit. So, why will a 3500 - 3600 lb car with better weight distribution that the current Cobra need AWD to get 100 more horsepower to the ground?
If Ford was looking for an AWD vehicle to compete with the WRXs of this world, they already have the Focus platform which can accept AWD; with ample turbocharging, it could compete quite well in this segment.
Now, my understanding is that Ford plans to use the Mustang plaform for a couple of other cars - the next Lincoln LS has been rumoured, as has a larger Ford RWD sedan. Perhaps they are testing AWD Mustang mules with the intention of offering AWD on one of those sedans. Given the new Chysler 300 will offer the option of AWD, this would make a lot more sense.
The 2005 Mustang GT is supposed to weigh in at around 3400 lbs. A supercharged 5.4 would probably up that weight a bit. So, why will a 3500 - 3600 lb car with better weight distribution that the current Cobra need AWD to get 100 more horsepower to the ground?
If Ford was looking for an AWD vehicle to compete with the WRXs of this world, they already have the Focus platform which can accept AWD; with ample turbocharging, it could compete quite well in this segment.
Now, my understanding is that Ford plans to use the Mustang plaform for a couple of other cars - the next Lincoln LS has been rumoured, as has a larger Ford RWD sedan. Perhaps they are testing AWD Mustang mules with the intention of offering AWD on one of those sedans. Given the new Chysler 300 will offer the option of AWD, this would make a lot more sense.
4/6/04, 09:12 PM
#45
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jarradasay,
If you can find me conclusive proof 3 LSD's are needed when pushing 500hp, I'll shut up. There are many 2wd vehicles pushing high horsepower. Adding power to the front wheels without a limited slip isn't a problem, particularly if the torque split is rear biased. Further more, if the front expeirences a loss of the traction, the center diff will divert power to the rear. So, it's certainly NOT neccessary, and will save weight. However, one can assume the aboslute BEST AWD system would contain a front LSD of some type, be it mechanical or electronic.
Funny, I never recall mentioning the 2.5RS or 2.5TS? However, since you brought it up, working at SIA you should know your company sells vehicles under $20K, in particular the 2.5TS wagon. Stickered at $18K and most likely the purchase price will be lower, and for what it offers, it is cheap. Let's not forget the old AWD Justy... I'm sure that was cheap.
Here's what I said:
The STi is a 6 speed. Maybe you should read my post more clearly next time rather than telling me what I said was dumb. 
Mike
If you can find me conclusive proof 3 LSD's are needed when pushing 500hp, I'll shut up. There are many 2wd vehicles pushing high horsepower. Adding power to the front wheels without a limited slip isn't a problem, particularly if the torque split is rear biased. Further more, if the front expeirences a loss of the traction, the center diff will divert power to the rear. So, it's certainly NOT neccessary, and will save weight. However, one can assume the aboslute BEST AWD system would contain a front LSD of some type, be it mechanical or electronic.
Subaru builds 20-30000 dollar four cylinder cars. The H-6 is in excess of 30000. THis is not cheap and no subaru does not build cheap cars. You really need to try and compare equal things. You are using subarus 165 HP cars to say that LSDs are not needed..
However, since you brought it up, working at SIA you should know your company sells vehicles under $20K, in particular the 2.5TS wagon. Stickered at $18K and most likely the purchase price will be lower, and for what it offers, it is cheap. Let's not forget the old AWD Justy... I'm sure that was cheap.
Trust me I build them here at SIA. That is just dumb. The car we are talking about would have 500/500 hp tq. And subaru does not use simple lightweight viscous diffs in all their manual cars. Look at the STi (a high performance car) and see what is in that.
In the Subaru's 5 speed manual cars, they use a lightweight & simple viscous type diffs. They do use a more sophisticated clutch type system in their auto equipped vehicles
Mike
4/6/04, 10:07 PM
#47
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Originally posted by dustindu4@Apr. 7th, 2004, 3:25 AM
I know there must be at least 1 Ford engineer reading this right now laughing his hiney off at you guys
I know there must be at least 1 Ford engineer reading this right now laughing his hiney off at you guys
hahahahah LMAO!! Ooops.......I've been had. :bang:
4/6/04, 10:07 PM
#48
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Just got the May issue of Automobile magazine...has info on the 06 Cobra 
First issue, says no 5.4, says a supercharged 4.6 putting out over 400 ponies (Ponies or Ponies).
Second issue, says will"... hew closely to the Mustang GT fastback concept. B)
Third issue, Will have IRS and updated brakes, wheels and tires.
well over 400 ponies, enough to deal with almost any car foreign or domestic alike and beat the little hellions out of them
First issue, says no 5.4, says a supercharged 4.6 putting out over 400 ponies (Ponies or Ponies).
Second issue, says will"... hew closely to the Mustang GT fastback concept. B)
Third issue, Will have IRS
and updated brakes, wheels and tires.well over 400 ponies, enough to deal with almost any car foreign or domestic alike and beat the little hellions out of them
4/7/04, 06:31 AM
#49
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Originally posted by dustindu4@Apr. 6th, 2004, 9:25 PM
I know there must be at least 1 Ford engineer reading this right now laughing his hiney off at you guys
I know there must be at least 1 Ford engineer reading this right now laughing his hiney off at you guys
4/7/04, 10:17 AM
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Ok, i want to chime in. In my opinion, there is about -20% chance a Mustang, Cobra or not, will have AWD. That was a negative percentage, by the way. So, no point in arguing over the impossible.
I think we will see that 5.4L 500hp S/C'd engine in the Cobra, and it will cost somewhere between $38,000 and $43,000. The $50,000+ Mustang that has been mentioned in articles is going to be the next R model, me thinks.
Now, about that AWD rumor....i could list a bunch of reasons why that would be a bad idea for Ford, and even more reasons why it isn't feasible on the S197 platform, but why bother? This is the typical internet forum rumor that means nothing and will be forgotten in a month or so. Then we will get an even bigger and dumber rumor, like the new Cobra will get a V12 and will have the driver's seat set in the middle of the car (like the McLaren F1 had) and it will cost only $15,000. I mean, at some point, you have to ignore the idiotic internet rumor mill.
As far as Brad's post about the 5.4 though, yippee!
I think we will see that 5.4L 500hp S/C'd engine in the Cobra, and it will cost somewhere between $38,000 and $43,000. The $50,000+ Mustang that has been mentioned in articles is going to be the next R model, me thinks.
Now, about that AWD rumor....i could list a bunch of reasons why that would be a bad idea for Ford, and even more reasons why it isn't feasible on the S197 platform, but why bother? This is the typical internet forum rumor that means nothing and will be forgotten in a month or so. Then we will get an even bigger and dumber rumor, like the new Cobra will get a V12 and will have the driver's seat set in the middle of the car (like the McLaren F1 had) and it will cost only $15,000. I mean, at some point, you have to ignore the idiotic internet rumor mill.
As far as Brad's post about the 5.4 though, yippee!
4/7/04, 10:32 AM
#51
Team Mustang Source
I called the SVT people about the next Cobra. Nice guy, wouldn't give any details. He did, however, confirm the 2007MY rumor (expecting spring '06 production with about June '06 release as '07MY). I asked if any detail had been released. He said no. I said " you know though don't you." He laughed and said "we know what direction we want to go. Some changes are still being made." Me "is it going to be more powerful?" Him (almost with a tooltime grunt) "Oh, yeah"
4/7/04, 11:46 AM
#54
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Originally posted by SVTCobraR315@Apr. 7th, 2004, 11:24 AM
all this talk about a supercharged 5.4 L 500HP V8... i dont know about you guys but that kinda sounds like the FORD GT engine.... what do ya think?
all this talk about a supercharged 5.4 L 500HP V8... i dont know about you guys but that kinda sounds like the FORD GT engine.... what do ya think?
4/7/04, 02:04 PM
#55
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Man, MSD you just dont get the point. Yes 500hp RWD cars are out there. and yes you could just use and open diff up front, but like you said if one of the two slips itll just divert all power to the rear which gains you nothing.
If you dont add LSDs to all three then you just end up with a 2WD when they slip. Not what you want out of performance AWD. If the front left wheel slips on an open diff all the power would be diverted to the rear if the Center had an LSD anyway, even though the front right might be able to grip. The point of adding AWD is to increase agililty and performance not keep it the same. Like I said if you want to "do it right" then it absolutly needs 3 Diffs like the Road and Track car of the year STi. If you just want to be average and gain some then stick with open diffs, its up to you.
Sorry I forgot the one car that costs less then 20000, but even that priced with standard options and wheels is 19637. Now all H-4 Subarus, minus the WRX(227) and new turbo forester and Baja (210). Have 165 ponies so, I didnt mention the 2.5rs/ts either. The legacy GTs and even the Outbacks, all 165!
If you dont add LSDs to all three then you just end up with a 2WD when they slip. Not what you want out of performance AWD. If the front left wheel slips on an open diff all the power would be diverted to the rear if the Center had an LSD anyway, even though the front right might be able to grip. The point of adding AWD is to increase agililty and performance not keep it the same. Like I said if you want to "do it right" then it absolutly needs 3 Diffs like the Road and Track car of the year STi. If you just want to be average and gain some then stick with open diffs, its up to you.
Funny, I never recall mentioning the 2.5RS or 2.5TS? However, since you brought it up, working at SIA you should know your company sells vehicles under $20K, in particular the 2.5TS wagon. Stickered at $18K
4/7/04, 06:02 PM
#57
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OK, Ive re-read your post 4 times now. What am I missing?
1) What I said was dumb was that you compared a car that would be pushing 500ftlbs of torque to one that doesnt even make 170. No comparison. Not even the same engineering principles required.
2) The proof for front LSD is simple. IF you dont have it you will have one tire fire all the time so the Center diff will send torque/hp to the rear. Formulation of this.(all theoretical in a perfect condition, of course) say the car is rear bias 40-60. That means 500ftlbs divided by the Center diff = 200 up front and 300 out rear. 300/by rear LSD = 150 to each side. 200/open diff = 200 to one tire. As everyone who has a V6 mustang can tell you, that is no good. the one tire will constantly burn. Which when that happens the LSD center will send the power rearward and you are back to RWD. It just makes sense that they need a Front LSD for something with that much power. It cannot be compared to the WRXs Volvos, Legacys, Heck even the STi and Skyline GTRs dont make that much torque.
3) You want to go best case senario then you add the electronic controlled center Diff that allows the driver to controll F/R bias.
4) The Justy? When was the last time that was built? 1994 was the last model year. it only had an I-3 in it. ?????
Is what I said was dumb. Even if you add the WRX in there it still wouldnt make sense to make that comparison. Had nothing to do with the 6speed vs. 5 speed.
What did I miss? I'm not trying to be offensive here. I just dont understand where you are coming from
1) What I said was dumb was that you compared a car that would be pushing 500ftlbs of torque to one that doesnt even make 170. No comparison. Not even the same engineering principles required.
2) The proof for front LSD is simple. IF you dont have it you will have one tire fire all the time so the Center diff will send torque/hp to the rear. Formulation of this.(all theoretical in a perfect condition, of course) say the car is rear bias 40-60. That means 500ftlbs divided by the Center diff = 200 up front and 300 out rear. 300/by rear LSD = 150 to each side. 200/open diff = 200 to one tire. As everyone who has a V6 mustang can tell you, that is no good. the one tire will constantly burn. Which when that happens the LSD center will send the power rearward and you are back to RWD. It just makes sense that they need a Front LSD for something with that much power. It cannot be compared to the WRXs Volvos, Legacys, Heck even the STi and Skyline GTRs dont make that much torque.
3) You want to go best case senario then you add the electronic controlled center Diff that allows the driver to controll F/R bias.
4) The Justy? When was the last time that was built? 1994 was the last model year. it only had an I-3 in it. ?????
You really need to try and compare equal things. You are using subarus 165 HP cars to say that LSDs are not needed. THese are touring cars with little HP and torque. Trust me I build them here at SIA. That is just dumb. The car we are talking about would have 500/500 hp tq.
What did I miss? I'm not trying to be offensive here. I just dont understand where you are coming from
4/7/04, 06:38 PM
#58
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1) Please show me where I ever brought up the 2.5RS or TS in my original post. You keep mentiong 165HP when I only mentioned the WRX and EVO.
2) An open differential applies EQUAL amounts of torque to BOTH wheels when traction is present. This blows a huge hole in your formula thats "theoretical in a perfect condition". You are saying only one wheel will ever get power... untrue if traction is present. If the vehicle is rain, snow, ice, or bumpy, crappy roads, then power will be diverted towards the rear if one of the fronts wheels slip. Further more, if the fronts do have traction and rears don't, power will get diverted towards the front and be distributed EQUALLY.
3) You should give Lamborghini call and let them know they aren't using the best AWD system for their 500HP+ vehicles. The meat of the systems use a Viscous Coupling system (kinda sounds similar to a manual WRX).
4) Exactly, and it was cheap (but you say Subaru doesn't build cheap cars) Working for SIA you probably know all options are Port installed on Impreza's and Subaru already equips the Impreza nicely from the factory. What standard options are you refering to?
Too late for that.. you already called my comments "dumb". Further more, the points I was correct on (like the chassis is what makes a car easier to handle, not AWD) you completely ignore.
The point is a good, simple AWD drive system would be useful on any car, either with 165hp or 500+ hp. It doesn't need to have electronic this and that, nor does it NEED a front differential (Notice I said front, it still needs at least a center). Now I'm done and I appologize for getting so off-topic to those interested in the main point of this thread.
Mike
2) An open differential applies EQUAL amounts of torque to BOTH wheels when traction is present. This blows a huge hole in your formula thats "theoretical in a perfect condition". You are saying only one wheel will ever get power... untrue if traction is present. If the vehicle is rain, snow, ice, or bumpy, crappy roads, then power will be diverted towards the rear if one of the fronts wheels slip. Further more, if the fronts do have traction and rears don't, power will get diverted towards the front and be distributed EQUALLY.
3) You should give Lamborghini call and let them know they aren't using the best AWD system for their 500HP+ vehicles. The meat of the systems use a Viscous Coupling system (kinda sounds similar to a manual WRX).
4) Exactly, and it was cheap (but you say Subaru doesn't build cheap cars) Working for SIA you probably know all options are Port installed on Impreza's and Subaru already equips the Impreza nicely from the factory. What standard options are you refering to?
I'm not trying to be offensive here
The point is a good, simple AWD drive system would be useful on any car, either with 165hp or 500+ hp. It doesn't need to have electronic this and that, nor does it NEED a front differential (Notice I said front, it still needs at least a center). Now I'm done and I appologize for getting so off-topic to those interested in the main point of this thread.
Mike
