Please try to keep the discussion soley on the supercharger system. Any smack talking between V6 and V8 can be done in the "which is better" area

 

Geez you guys....MSP is having fun with his car and some of you are giving him a tough time over that?
Lots of ways to make HP with an engine,too.

 

Please stick to the topic at hand.

I know tempers have flaired based on certain peoples views or counter views... but keep it on topic.

NO one is slagging numbers or modding of any engines...

...some peoples opinions however (although they may be loud, wrong, right, quiet, long winded, incorrect, correct, overconfident, under estimated, however they may be and in any combination) are opinions.

Some people take kindly to constructive criticism...
... and some get defensive and loopy.

but personal attacks... are a no no...

------------------------------------------------------------------

Back on topic...
I'm sure the numbers are kept lower for reliability purposes.

 

We are all here with the same intentions and certain similarities. We all obviously love Stangs and we ALL love to make them just a little quicker (all 4,V6,& V8's alike).

Lets stick to how we can help each other out to achieve our goals. This is a community not a shooting range.

If you don't agree with someone's opinion - either ignore it or show positive proof why that person may be incorrect in believing something - without making personal jabs or attacks. If you want to play that game take your love for your stang to a ricer forum or chevy forum and have a blast. See how it feels...

Back to the topic - The Vortech air/water system has been tested for a very long time - they would not have taken so long to release, and were not running to be the first out there with a s/c , t/c system. Just like Mike@powerhouse or Explorer Express -that are all still in testing/pre-prod phases because they want to make it safe and reliable.

ProCharger is also a great system - but also has some drawbacks - chiefly being below average Customer Service as per Belial and some not so clear sales practices - also as per Belial. Nonetheless their s/c does seem to show great numbers and performance. They do however only offer a 1 year warranty compared to 3 from Vortech [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/headscratch.gif[/img]

ProCharger was on the top of my list until recently and then I decided to go for the Vortech. Hopefully it was the right decision [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif[/img] Time will tell. I do know and APPRECIATE all the testing and hard work MSP has done along with Screamin and Rygen to show us what these 4.0 can do and handle. Many said a Tlok , or the 4.0 for that matter, could not hold a 100 shot of NOS - well Screamin is proving everyone wrong - just an example...

Lets all see what these engines can do and not brow beat someone for trying to test its limits. If the engine blows, and that individual is aware of that possibility - then same argument over v8/v6 crap to be made - It's their car and they can do whatever the heck they want to it - They paid for it.

I am excited to see how the HO Vortech system with Aftercooler is going to perform in my V6 Auto and I will be posting pics etc... as soon as it arrives and is in the shop. I will also try creating a custom SCT tune to see if we can squeeze a little more HP and will post Dyno numbers as well.

Lets keep modding these cars and still feel like we can post our info and ideas - in a civilized manner

 

If I had the cash, I'd have gone with Mike's turbo. 2nd on my list was the ProCharger, which is why I ordered that.

Opinions are like donkey doughnuts, and everyone has one... but the Vortech has one main weakpoint... the aftercooler. You say it's a tested system and all, but it's still using water!

Once that water increases to a certain temperature, you don't have any more advantage than those w/o a inter/aftercooler in the first place!

Water has a much higher thermal capacity than air, but without some sort of secondary cooling medium, you're going to be limited to how long you can stay WOT. With an intercooler, as long as you have fresh air running through the frontend, back-to-back pulls are going to be consistently similar.

Not slamming the Vortech, because otherwise it's a good system.... I just don't understand their insistance on using an aftercooler.

Truthfully, it comes down to price. Aftercoolers are much cheaper than intercoolers, and if saving money is what they're after.... count me out.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(screaminyellin6 @ February 9, 2006, 10:50 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
We are all here with the same intentions and certain similarities. We all obviously love Stangs and we ALL love to make them just a little quicker (all 4,V6,& V8's alike).

Lets stick to how we can help each other out to achieve our goals. This is a community not a shooting range.

If you don't agree with someone's opinion - either ignore it or show positive proof why that person may be incorrect in believing something - without making personal jabs or attacks. If you want to play that game take your love for your stang to a ricer forum or chevy forum and have a blast. See how it feels...

Back to the topic - The Vortech air/water system has been tested for a very long time - they would not have taken so long to release, and were not running to be the first out there with a s/c , t/c system. Just like Mike@powerhouse or Explorer Express -that are all still in testing/pre-prod phases because they want to make it safe and reliable.

ProCharger is also a great system - but also has some drawbacks - chiefly being below average Customer Service as per Belial and some not so clear sales practices - also as per Belial. Nonetheless their s/c does seem to show great numbers and performance. They do however only offer a 1 year warranty compared to 3 from Vortech [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/headscratch.gif[/img]

ProCharger was on the top of my list until recently and then I decided to go for the Vortech. Hopefully it was the right decision [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif[/img] Time will tell. I do know and APPRECIATE all the testing and hard work MSP has done along with Screamin and Rygen to show us what these 4.0 can do and handle. Many said a Tlok , or the 4.0 for that matter, could not hold a 100 shot of NOS - well Screamin is proving everyone wrong - just an example...

Lets all see what these engines can do and not brow beat someone for trying to test its limits. If the engine blows, and that individual is aware of that possibility - then same argument over v8/v6 crap to be made - It's their car and they can do whatever the heck they want to it - They paid for it.

I am excited to see how the HO Vortech system with Aftercooler is going to perform in my V6 Auto and I will be posting pics etc... as soon as it arrives and is in the shop. I will also try creating a custom SCT tune to see if we can squeeze a little more HP and will post Dyno numbers as well.

Lets keep modding these cars and still feel like we can post our info and ideas - in a civilized manner
[/b][/quote]

<span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">edit for bypassing language filters</span>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flapjack @ February 9, 2006, 11:12 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
If I had the cash, I'd have gone with Mike's turbo. 2nd on my list was the ProCharger, which is why I ordered that.

Opinions are like @55holes, and everyone has one... but the Vortech has one main weakpoint... the aftercooler. You say it's a tested system and all, but it's still using water!

Once that water increases to a certain temperature, you don't have any more advantage than those w/o a inter/aftercooler in the first place!

Water has a much higher thermal capacity than air, but without some sort of secondary cooling medium, you're going to be limited to how long you can stay WOT. With an intercooler, as long as you have fresh air running through the frontend, back-to-back pulls are going to be consistently similar.

Not slamming the Vortech, because otherwise it's a good system.... I just don't understand their insistance on using an aftercooler.

Truthfully, it comes down to price. Aftercoolers are much cheaper than intercoolers, and if saving money is what they're after.... count me out.
[/b][/quote]

In regards to Intercoolers Vs. AfterCoolers, I would personally choose the AfterCooler.. Why? Why would MSP choose the Aftercooler..

Well first off, the Aftercooler is more flexible in terms of its effectiveness to the enduser.. In the Summer months, if your at a local race track, one can buy some $1.99 bags of ice to assist in the 1/4 mile run...

Also, everyone has somehow missed the fact that the charged cooled air temp is so consistent it produces and additional 2psi of boost from a Vortech Stock 8PSI or 3.25in pulley!...

So infact isnt it a fact that Intercoolers consume alittle boost created by the S/C?

Looky Here!!


Overview: Intercoolers and the 22R-TE

An intercooler, for those who don't know, is essentially a radiator designed to cool the hot "boosted" air coming out of the turbocharger. Because compressing air raises its temperature (generally around 150 degrees F above ambient air temperature for every 7 psi of boost), intercooling goes hand in hand with turbocharging . Since the stock boost in the 22R-TE is about 7 psi, this means that the temperature of the stock system's output (on a 70 degree spring day) would be something like 220 degrees F. Raise the boost to 14 psi, and you're looking at 370 degrees F when the air reaches the injectors; not only does this heat prevent your engine from reaching its performance potential, the hot air expands the fuel mixture, leading to detonation and poor mileage.

Enter the intercooler. Intercoolers can create dramatic results on engines that run a lot of boost, because this excess heat has a place to dissipate. But how much of a difference can an intercooler make on a stock 22R-TE?

From my experience, I'd have to say that an intercooler *by itself* does not yield a significant increase in performance on a 22R-TE running stock boost. This is mostly because the stock boost is so low, but it's also because an intercooler introduces some additional turbo lag, and the stock setup already has enough of that courtesy of its design.

Before the addition of the intercooler, I was seeing 7.5 psi of boost at the throttle plate (where my boost gauge takes its reading from). This is on the high end of the stock boost spectrum. After adding an intercooler, this figure dropped to 6 psi. Performance remained about the same: whatever gains I saw from cooling the intake charge were likely mitigated by the (comparatively significant) drop in boost pressure. In other words, it was basically a wash. An intercooler alone was not a big power maker on my ride.

So now we can see that the intercoolers do consume alittle..

However, Vortechs Aftercooler has a consistent 2psi of boost above the stock 8psi pulley classifying the entire system as a 10psi system.. Now the Intercoolers are quite effective when running more boost.. But it is my understanding that it is most likely more boost than our SOHC 4.0 can maintain on stock internals..

I would recommend going with Vortechs Aftercooler..

 

You bring up some valid points. If you are loooking for hard WOTs at a quarter mile then you can just add some ice [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]

It all boiled down to - I was more impressed with their 3 year warranty and their customer service. With that said the procharger was also my first pick but I had heard alot of negatives in regards to their service - the largest superchargers online .com store does not carry them for that reason.

Performance I believe Proochargers are excellent - I am just a little weary of what happens when I need to exchange something or something is not in the kit I ordered... I do like the fact that the oil is self contained in the system as well , but tapping into the main is not really something that makes me as apprehensive.

my point - In all honesty any of these setups can either make your car run real fast or really fast into the ground... Any of these will give you monstrous gains over stock and make you smile from ear to ear. Remember the more power you push the more work you will have to do to some stock pieces and possible repairs in the future because of the added stresses.

If there was a number 1 best solution it would be out of most of our reached anyhows... for now lets all enjoy the ever increasing power boosts.

Flapjack -- please send pics as your project starts... I'd like to see how it progessess.... and vid too - that procharger sure has that distinctive sound [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]

 

Additionally I would like to add that since the Aftercooler is responsible for creating the last 2 PSI of boost, you can be rest assured that the last 2 psi of boost is safe from deteonation temperatures.. Meaning that while the actually pulley installed is based on an 8psi rpm range in conjunction with the S/C, the peak of the boost +2 psi happens because of the cooling effect the Vortech Aftercooler makes to the 8psi generated from the S/C..

So now we can say my S/C is only working at full load 36553RPM for 8psi of boost.. The actuall speed for 10 psi of boost the S/C would have to run to create it on its own is 41,393.73rpm...


It also must be stated that since the Vortech system does use engine oil for lubrication, the actuall S/C temp is hotter than the Prochargers self contained unit.. Which further underscores the aftercoolers charged air cooling effectivenesss!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> name='screaminyellin6' date='February 9, 2006, 9:50 AM' post='638054'
They do however only offer a 1 year warranty compared to 3 from Vortech
[/b][/quote]

Just for the record Procharger does offer a 3 year warr. on the P-1SC supercharger it's additional $49.00.


@MSP

I am glad to see it's running great for you seems like no problems, excellant!!! it looks nice, I do like the blue and also thanks for all the info and video you been posting.

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

 

I will post a longer reply back in a few hours, but I have to ask for now.... where do you get this 2 psi of boost idea?? What is the science behind it?

You need either a chemical reaction or mechanical force to create pressure, as me and screamin' debated long ago on the mustang forums.

There is no magical process of psi boost by travelling through an aftercooler....

I'm a man of science. I need proof.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flapjack @ February 9, 2006, 2:33 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I will post a longer reply back in a few hours, but I have to ask for now.... where do you get this 2 psi of boost idea?? What is the science behind it?

You need either a chemical reaction or mechanical force to create pressure, as me and screamin' debated long ago on the mustang forums.

There is no magical process of psi boost by travelling through an aftercooler....

I'm a man of science. I need proof.
[/b][/quote]


The 2psi of boost is created by the Charge cooling effect of Vortechs Aftercooler.. Effectively, the Aftercooler cools and condenses the air of the 8psi of boost to the point where 2psi of additional boost is created!

Thats the magic behind the Vortech Aftercooler.. Not only that, but sense the distance from the supercharger and the actual throttle body are so close, there is no effective net loss between the supercharger and the air intake point.. Meaning, the shorter the distance to the intake, the more effectient the charged cooled air is, as it enters the chambers...

@ALL

I just bought some Mothers Billet Aluminum polishing compound! I just polished the Vortech V2-Supercharger and Aftercooler, and will wipe it down in a bit.. I wanna see how shiney I can make this thing.. LOL!! Perhaps a few car shows this summer may not be totally out of the question.. Thus far, Scrming is the reigning champ at the Drag strip, and the car show arena... Maybe I can use alittle bling under the hood to grab myself a few ribbons! LOL! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img] Stand by for pics!

 

Came out real good! Gotta love Mothers!! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

 

Look at my number base on the claculator...

Your 2005 mustang V6 weighs about 3500 pounds and can complete a 1/4 mile in about .01 seconds. That means that you've got about 691760617187.50 HP at the wheels, and about 899288802343.75 HP at the flywheel.

The arms race continues

 

I hate to say it, but you are wrong. There is no way an aftercooler can "create" pressure.

Even if the aftercooler consistenly cools the charge coming from the supercharger and cools the superhot air down, the cooler air becomes more dense, and pressure DECREASES.

Say you're right, and the cooler air is condensed.... where does the extra intake charge, which would be required to raise psi, come from?

Like I said earlier, you need a chemical reaction or mechanical force to increase pressure.

Also, you said this:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>It also must be stated that since the Vortech system does use engine oil for lubrication, the actuall S/C temp is hotter than the Prochargers self contained unit.. Which further underscores the aftercoolers charged air cooling effectivenesss![/b][/quote]

Since when does a hotter supercharger make an intercooler/aftercooler more effective?!! Hotter air just means more must be done to cool the air before it hits the engine, to prevent detonation!

If you take 200F degree air, and run it through a cooling medium designed to take away say.... 100F of heat, you're left with 100F of hot air.

If you take 125F degree air and run it through the same cooler, the most you can hope to achieve is an air temp that matches the ambient air temp (since you're using the ambient air to cool).

You keep bringing up the ice bagging and whatnot. You're right, that will temporarily cool better than an intercooler. But it's value in day-to-day driving, or extended racing is marginal at best.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flapjack @ February 9, 2006, 6:35 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I hate to say it, but you are wrong. There is no way an aftercooler can "create" pressure.

Even if the aftercooler consistenly cools the charge coming from the supercharger and cools the superhot air down, the cooler air becomes more dense, and pressure DECREASES.

Say you're right, and the cooler air is condensed.... where does the extra intake charge, which would be required to raise psi, come from?

Like I said earlier, you need a chemical reaction or mechanical force to increase pressure.

Also, you said this:
Since when does a hotter supercharger make an intercooler/aftercooler more effective?!! Hotter air just means more must be done to cool the air before it hits the engine, to prevent detonation!

If you take 200F degree air, and run it through a cooling medium designed to take away say.... 100F of heat, you're left with 100F of hot air.

If you take 125F degree air and run it through the same cooler, the most you can hope to achieve is an air temp that matches the ambient air temp (since you're using the ambient air to cool).

You keep bringing up the ice bagging and whatnot. You're right, that will temporarily cool better than an intercooler. But it's value in day-to-day driving, or extended racing is marginal at best.
[/b][/quote]


LOL!! My new friend FlapJack, I just want you to know that I support your decision to go with the Procharger.. It will be you and Belial against ScreamingYellin6 and (I) this summer at a track with video camera's and track time reciepts!! We are going to have to settle this on a track..

This summer its gonna be the Vortech vs. Procharger Mustang V6 Tuner wars!! Intercooler, vs. Aftercooler! ... Its gonna go down FlapJack like it or not.. Friends or foe, by the end of this summer, we will see which setup is left standing.. Which setup yielded the best and most consitant passes.. Us 4 will come to a conclusion on this debate one way or another before the end of the summer of 2006!!

So bring your A game FlapJack.. I aint backin down, niether is ScreamingYellin6, and niether is Vortech! We are all game!

LOL!! Ok got that off my chest! I support whatever decision you make FlapJack! Just make sure that baby is ready to run deep into the 12's.. I dont want any excuses later.. Make sure the TT is in and lockin up!! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]

Lets do it Bubba!! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

Also, lets have a dyno sheet of the Procharger system before we put any claims made out into a public discussion.. We all have seen the numbers for Vortech's kit! Lets see one for the Pro-Charger..

No more quoting from the websites.. Lets have the dyno sheets!

It must consist of 3 back to back pulls, all together ending in no less or more than 15 minutes.. Thats 5 minutes rest between pulls!!

 

I'll bring the Beer ( and Ice - lol) , Rygen has the sweet camera - and we can make one heck of a pay-per view...

But it would only be fair to have Rygen also participate along with Screamin and make it a NOS rally as well [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]

By the end of the night we'll all have some cool timeslips and be best of buds....

btw - MSP that engine compartment is looking - HOT -- darn you got bling under that hood now -- lol

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(screaminyellin6 @ February 9, 2006, 7:27 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I'll bring the Beer ( and Ice - lol) , Rygen has the sweet camera - and we can make one heck of a pay-per view...

But it would only be fair to have Rygen also participate along with Screamin and make it a NOS rally as well [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]

By the end of the night we'll all have some cool timeslips and be best of buds....

btw - MSP that engine compartment is looking - HOT -- darn you got bling under that hood now -- lol
[/b][/quote]

Oh yeah of course!! The NOS 2005 V6's are also going to try and make a statement.. They are also included.. without a doubt we gotta have some NOS 6's runnin!! Also, we all hope to see a few Pipeline Turbo's out there.. I have a feeling the Pipeline Turbo's are gonna be tough to beat, based on the lowend torque numbers.. The Nitrous also has a mean low-end torque launch... Which means, us supercharger guys are gonna have to run'em down one way or another..

 

When we havin the arizona meet? lol. Give me enough time to get boosted though [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fazm @ February 9, 2006, 7:50 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
When we havin the arizona meet? lol. Give me enough time to get boosted though [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]


If everyone agreed on Arizona, I wouldnt have a problem going out there! The scorching heat wont be a problem for the me to deal with either.. Where is the track in Arizona? In Phoenix, or Flagstaff? I used to go to Arizona alot, so I am real familiar with it.. The Summer is too hot for me though.. But I'll go to do alittle racin no problem! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]


I would defianately put my car on a trailer though, and bring my Tahoe.. I would hate to put that kind of miles on it.. Plus, I love my Tahoe more for the road trips! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

 

Hahah, you're a trip. Well, being as though Belial's setup is the Stage I, I feel I'll have a pretty good shot. We'll have to see.

Forgive me if it feels I'm debunking your posts... I'm not. I'm just a very scientific, analytical guy. I've always done well in science and physics, and look for any opportunity to exploit my knowledge.

I could be wrong about the aftercooler stuff... but I don't think so. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]


Oh yeah... I have to agree with Screamin'

Your engine bay is sweet looking. I may not be a huge Vortech fan.... but it sure looks darn good!