TJ06

Exception just for the record I am not trying to be sarcastic, argumentive, in my previous post or this one if I come off like that to you, ok I think that covered all the bases. H* LL I want all the HP & TQ I can get too and anything I find out or do that can increase HP I will diff share with you guys. I just would like to see how you are coming up with the 250HP stock lets debate. Ok I took that figure of 250RWHP as including you're LT's /exhaust setup. I might be missing something and if I am missing I want to know so lets do the math. I want to make sure & precise when I pick my charger per HP gain and poss. HP w/mod gains. The X-Charger website states 74HP increase on the 4.0 with the Eaton M 62. The company Magnesium Products that developed MP 90 is the company where X=Charger is getting their Eaton MP 90 from states 40% increase in HP.


(Also I can’t see 20HP per 93 octane maybe 5HP as your car is now)




The math

Ok your car before charger

205 RWHP per last dyno which by the way is very nice. Includes JBA, CAI , Tune
5 Alt pulley
4 UDP RWHP but poss. zero HP gain if you use the alt pulley
20HP LT’s PC dual exhaust can’t put a good number on that but without F/I
_____
234 HP Total
28 HP Ok lets back out the 20HP CAI & Tune and 8HP for you single JBA
206HP Net Total

98HP Lets add 40% increase 83HP Plus 15 HP per Doug’s tune
10 HP Extra 10HP to Exhaust system 20HP above is now 30HP per S/C

314 HP
4 HP Take poss. 4HP away per both pulley gains listed ?
310 HP total gross with S/C

Wow I even surprised my self even with these numbers, if the X-charger can do this I will most likely go with this system.

Ok guys if I am forgetting something wrong please chime in, or if my estimated figures are off or you do not agree let’s hear it.



Jimp I just checked the front page WOW does that look good there! I would like to see the look on people’s faces who come here from links we leave at other forums and see it for the first time.





*

Thomas S

Don't forget, that's only at 6psi. You can also run them at 9psi. Who knows how much hp they will make then.

Thanks! It's still incomplete. I need to finish every entry. If anyone has any suggestions please let me know. You can reply here and tell me specifically what to add or change and I will make it happen!

TJ06

Jimp Dave from X-Charger recommeded risky to me unless you beef up the bottom end. He was saying also when I talked to him he has seen the top ring on the piston blow off or break on 4.0 at 9PSI because it sits to high to the top of the piston also mention weak pistons because of the metal they are made of and the high 9.71 compression if I remember correctly also he said run at you're onw risk.

The above should apply to any Supercharger running 9psi.

Excepcion13

Very good analysis, TJ! We are missing each other slightly, I believe because I am talking HP at the crank and you are talking at the wheel. And even though I didn't think you were being a Richard, you can be as argumentative as you want! I won't take it wrong. Heck, I am in Law School because I love to debate anything and everything (Once had a 30 minute argument over the benefits of using a plastic versus a metal spoon for the coffee mess. And check out any StangNet post involving me and anyone with a V8. Might as well get paid for being this ornery!!!).

I am not at 250 yet, but I am close. I mean at the crank, not the wheel.

Okay, here is what I meant:

205 RWHP with CAI/87 Tune/JBA Exhaust

That is 236 HP at the crank (figuring a 15% loss due to MT).

So, I need 14 more HP to get me to 250 HP (not RWHP), which would put me at about 213 RWHP, or a gain of 8 RWHP. That is my goal for now without any major power adder. I will get the extra 13HP/8RWHP with the headers, Prochamber, Dual Exhaust, and a 93 Octane Tune. The pulley will just be my "insurance." However, let me go to the stock numbers and do the math for the SC. All numbers are at the crank.

Okay, now let's do the math with the SC:

Conservative:

Stock: 210
SC: 84 (40% increase)
LT Headers/Prochamber/Duals/Tune/Pulley: 26

Tota HP: 320

Optimistic:

Stock: 210
SC: 105 (50% increase)
LT Headers/Prochamber/Duals/Tune/Pulley: 35

Total HP: 350

I will post my numbers with the 93 tune and see what gains that gives me. Expecting at least 3. I am telling you, I will get to 250 HP NA and 350 HP SC. One way or the other. Just keep in mind I am talking crank numbers and using a 15% loss from manual transmission.

So ultimately, I want 213 RWHP NA and 298 RWHP with the X-Charger. Taking bets I can do it....

TJ06

Exception that was it I was talking RWHP I always talk RWHP only and just took it you were to. You know the bottom line is we are in agreemeant and are with in 12 HP of each other. I hope we are close because I like the X-Charger as I stated the reasons in my previous post about a month or two ago here, but we will have to wait for the dyno data from Dave

I am glad I misunderstood you because I like what I see in the numbers in the math

I didn't know that NICE Good Luck on your bar exam.
Well I gave you my argument and you gave me you 21 day response no courtroom motions, no sidebars didn't have to go to court in front of the Judge/ forum members, or jury for a verdict we ended up settling this out of court. Nice work counselor.

Just having a little fun with you above.

If you have a link to one of your better arguments at stange PM it me I'd like to read it.

TJ06

Jimp here is a couple of photos of the ProCharger P-1SC-1 if you want to use them.

Excepcion13

This was some kind of weird delayed double posting with my old avatar.... Hmmmm....

TJ06

I was reading in another thread about intercooling and I happen to have some info from my research wthat I think is good info on intercooling air to air vs air to water systems. I thought I would post it since some of the Superchargers on the front page come with intercoolers, I believe I have more info around so if I find it I will post more info.

“In terms of efficiency, the [air to water intercooler] is only 33 percent efficient. Typical automotive air to air intercoolers score in the 60-70% percent efficient”
“Muscle Mustang and Fast Fords”


“The normal, closed loop air to water intercooler system [not using ice] is not as effective as a properly designed air to air intercooling system since the cooling medium or the liquid coming from the front heat exchanger [air to water systems have a front radiator and pump in addition to the intercooler] is always warmer than the ambient air temperature.”
“All about intercooling,” George Spears

“Street cars will benefit much more from an air to air intercooler
This is because the coolest air charge [from an air to water intercooler] is only available only with a fresh charge of ice and water. Ice melts quickly when circulated through an intercooler, so its useful life is measured only in minutes.”
Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords”

“An intercooler provides substantial returns when the boost pressure is higher than 5psi. many enthusiasts have the misconception than an intercooler should have no boost loss. If the intake charge had no pressure loss across the intercooler there would most likely not be a cooling effect taking place.”
Robert Choo, Import tuner

Intercoolers... Aftercoolers... What's the difference?

In order for an intercooler to effectively cool the air that passes through it, the intercooler itself must be cooled by some external means. Most intercoolers are cooled just like your engine's radiator - air flows over the outside of the intercooler's fins, which in turn cool the air inside the intercooler - hence the name Air to Air Intercooler. Some intercoolers, however, are cooled by water instead of air, in which case they are generally called aftercoolers, or Air to Water Intercoolers. The benefit to an aftercooler is that air passing through it can be cooled more than in a traditional air/air intercooler if very cold water and ice are used to cool the intercooler - in fact, some aftercoolers chill the air to below ambient air temperatures even after it has been compressed by the supercharger. The reason aftercoolers are more effective in cooling the air charge is because water is a much better conductor of heat than air - in fact water conducts 4 times as much heat as air! The obvious drawback is that with time, the water will heat up to the temperature of the air passing through it, and its ability to cool incoming air goes away. Some aftercoolers, however, use a small radiator to cool the water that runs through the system, making them ideal for street use as well as racing. For drag racing applications aftercoolers packed with ice work very well because they only need to work for around ten seconds or so (hopefully) before you shut down and head to the victory podium. For milder racing and street applications air/air intercoolers or aftercoolers with radiators are more practical as their ability to cool incoming air is not reduced with time.


http://www.superchargersonline.com/content.asp?ID=16

Thomas S

Very good info! Thanks!

MSP

That is good info.. We will have to see how this plays out.. We will know real soon how effective it is.. Nice post!!

rygenstormlocke

Here is some more information I got back from Mike this morning via email:

Todd,
The 4.0 system is about a month away yet, we are currently wrapping the final details on the v8 system as we speak.
Unfortunately, I have no technical write-up at this time, but will as we get closer to the actual production date.
The 6, 9 and 12 psi system are all virtually the same components.
The 6psi can be had non-intercooled, approximately 260rwhp.
The 9psi is intercooled, approximately 320rwhp The 12psi is also intercooled and requires a voltage driver such as a KB BAP, nets around 400rwhp on 104 octane fuel.
All systems utilize the same turbocharger and injector combination.

Expect more details in the next few weeks.

Mike Bowen
PowerHouse Automotive, LLC
www.PowerHouse411.com
814 774 4966

rygenstormlocke

Here is what I got from MRT, pretty much 0 feedback. How annoying:

These are in development and timing is not set as yet, please consider the website for further information. On your question regarding performance specs, this will vary car to car and will also have more information al soon as product is available.

Thanks for your inquiry and interest in MRT products. If you'd like further assistance, let us know.

Customer Service,
Mustang Racing Technologies
Phone (248)449-4034
Fax (248)449-3494
www.MRT-Direct.com
www.mustangracing.com
www.exhaustzone.com

TJ06

Good Work

Just some thoughts.
If we didn't over estimate w/mods @300-310RWHP/without mods@275-300HP on the X-Charger it would look to be better than the T@6psi and competitive at only 6psi vs the T@9psi.

The ProCharger at 9psi @350HP also looks to be competitive of better than the T@6psi or 9PSI.


The Powerhouse Turbo at 12 psi looks like/is the king of all systems at the outrageous 400RWHP WOW!!! This is the go fast setup for all out performance and person seeking the fastest setup out of all systems out today. I didn't think he was going to release a 12 psi system for the 4.0. The question that begs to be answered is this for a stock 4.0 or for a rebuilt bottom end? The other question is would you have the option to run 104 octane for track/street and then have also the option to run 93 octane for the street via the spring adjustment to turn down the boost? if yes this would be sweeeeeeet !!! I would think that would be the case.

Rygn what do you know (my questions) or think?

TJ06

Added more infor on intercooler's above per MSP

MSP

I'll tell you what.. I love Powerhouse just as much as anybody, but dont discount Vortech's setup... I have Powerhouses V6 Mustang in my cross hairs, and am determined to punish him for using an 8.8 rear-end... Basically, his turbo setup is awsome, but he's going down for using an 8.8 rear-end on our V6's... Right now, his cars best is an 11.5 ET I believe.. Thats my target.. I wont stop until I can punish him for the use of that 8.8 rear-end.. Powerhous411's Single Turbo setup is on notice that MSP and Vortech are not going to sit back peacefully and let him dominate the V6 Mustang Class with an 8.8 rear-end... I'm taking that car down... LOL!!! I know Mike Bowen has alot of tricks up his sleeve, and I have pure admiration for him and what he has done for the 05 V6 community.. But I need to set him straight on the use of the 8.8.... It is more than likley that I will have to buy the detroit tru-trac to do it, but thats ok now...

No hard feelings Powerhouse411!! But your goin down my man!!

rygenstormlocke

Don't have any new information to provide as of yet. You are right, the ProCharger looks to be better than the PH Turbo until you get to 12psi. However, when comparing the two and doing research, it seems a SC will take 10% power to make power, but is a little cooler air vs. the TC that makes power from exhaust gas, but has to spin up first.

For the turbo, if I were to go this route, I would stick with 9PSI and use my Zex to tweak my gains. I don't want to mess with the 12PSI because I'm sure there is more than meets the eye on his mods. Also, 104 OCT is not an option for me. This is my DD, not my race car and it will be a while before I build a dedicated track car.

I'm still doing research, but check out this thread:

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/turbo-vs-s...e-up-29060.html

Not entirely accurate according to some, but good information none the less. Click on the thread to see the responses, here is the actual initial write up:

Turbo vs Supercharger - Write up!!
This is a write up for a school paper from a guy on another forum I belong to. Kind of makes me think about going with a Turbo vs the Supercharger as previously planned. Whats your guys take on this matter???



Here it is;

Forced Induction: The Eternal Struggle for Superiority Between Supercharging and Turbocharging

Introduction

So, you just went out and bought the fastest car made by your favorite manufacturer. You paid a whole year’s worth of your salary on this one car, so it must be the best car ever made. You pull out of the dealership and on to the street. You get up to a red traffic light and stop. Another “sports car” pulls up next to you. “Excellent,” you think to yourself, “I’ll show this guy what this car can do.” You rev your engine and he returns the gesture. The light turns green, and in a near instant you are seeing nothing but the taillights of the car that you were supposed to be beating. How do you solve this dilemma? More horsepower. How do you get more horsepower you ask? Forced induction.

The engine in your car, and every other gas-powered car is basically a big air pump. The intake sucks in air, fuel injectors add gas, your pistons compress that air/gas mixture, the spark plugs ignite the mixture, and the exhaust lets all of the pressure from the explosion out. The explosion in the cylinder is what causes the piston to be forced down and thus rotates the crankshaft, which basically makes your car go. In order to make more horsepower you need a bigger explosion.

The simplest way to get much larger explosions is to increase the amount of air and gas in the cylinder when the spark plug ignites the mixture. The extra fuel is easily added by using larger fuel injectors. The problem is getting more air into the engine. Enthusiasts use a system called forced induction to actually compress the air going into the engine, thus increasing the number of air molecules. There are two types of forced induction: supercharging and turbocharging. Turbocharging is a better method than supercharging for the automotive enthusiast to use as a form of forced induction on a daily driven street vehicle--based on cost, reliability, versatility, and efficiency.

Types of Forced Induction

All forms of forced induction work on one basic principal. A compressor unit, just a pump that pressurizes air, takes in a certain volume of air and compresses (or pressurizes) it into a smaller package, which can be crammed into a smaller space. This allows more air molecules into a given volume of space, such as a cylinder in an engine. The problem that presents itself is that it takes a very large amount of power to run these compressors due to the high volume of airflow they must produce. The question is how do we power them?

One method of powering the compressor is called supercharging. This method uses a pulley attached to the compressor and to a belt driven by the engine’s crankshaft pulley to power the compressor unit. The crankshaft pulley on the engine spins and thus drives the compressor wheel and makes boost—pressure for an engine’s intake (Francis, 2002, p. 2).

The other method of powering the compressor is called turbocharging.
This method uses a turbine attached to the compressor and the air coming out of the engine to power the compressor unit. The exhaust gases flowing out of an engine are very hot and under extremely high pressure. Heat and pressure are two types of potential energy. We channel this readily available energy through the exhaust manifold and into a turbine housing, similar to a big pinwheel or watermill and allow them to spin the turbine and consequently the compressor wheel as well (Turbocharging, 2002, p. 1).

Turbocharger System--Versatility

In order to understand the claims of the superiority of the turbocharger system over the supercharger system one must also understand the basic parts of each system. The turbocharger system uses a turbocharger unit (which is the compressor), a special exhaust manifold, and wastegate.

The turbocharger itself is actually three parts. The first part is obviously the compressor section; which includes the compressor housing and compressor wheel. This section sucks in ambient air and blows it out as pressurized air—with a slightly higher temperature due to basic physics. “When you compress a gas, its temperature will increase…” (Turbocharging, 2002, p. 1). The second part is the turbine section; which in turn includes a turbine housing and turbine wheel. This section takes in high temperature-high pressure exhaust gases and spins the turbine wheel before letting all of the gases—minus heat and pressure—out of the outlet. The third section is the bearing and shaft section. This section houses a shaft, which connects the turbine wheel to the compressor wheel and also oiled bearings, which in turn keep the shaft spinning freely.
The exhaust manifold for a turbocharger is simply a modified manifold that collects all of the hot –pressurized gases out of the engine and directs them into the turbine housing of the turbocharger. All engines have an exhaust manifold to collect the exhaust and send it out the tailpipe. The turbocharger system simply uses a slightly modified one that allows the gases to go through the turbocharger before going out the tailpipe (Francis, 2002, p. 1).

The wastegate is the last but not the least part of a turbocharger system. The wastegate serves as a bypass for exhaust gases. It allows the pressure to bypass the turbine housing and go directly to the tailpipe. The wastegate therefore determines the speed with which the turbine spins and thusly controls the level of boost being made by the compressor. By adjusting the amount of exhaust bypassed, one can also adjust the boost level (Bell, 1997, p. 142).

Supercharger System—Lack of Versatility

The opponent of the turbocharger system is the supercharger system. It includes three major components as well. It uses a supercharger (the compressor), a belt and pulley, and brackets (CamdenSupercharger, 2001, pp. 1-2).

The supercharger itself is a fairly simple unit compared to the turbocharger. It has only one major section, the compressor. The compressor section of a supercharger is identical to that of a turbocharger. It uses a compressor wheel and compressor housing to suck in ambient air and blow out pressurized air—which also has a higher temperature. Keep in mind that higher temperature air isn’t a good thing, but it is a necessary evil shared by both superchargers and turbochargers because “when you compress a gas, its temperature will increase…” (Turbocharging, 2002, p. 1). Many people think that only turbochargers increase the intake temperature, because they are connected to the exhaust manifold. That is not true. Both systems increase the intake air temperature.

The belt and pulley system on a supercharger are connected to the compressor wheel in lieu of the turbine section found on a turbocharger. This belt and pulley vary in power directly to the speed at which the engine turns. This directly influences boost pressure. The only way to get more boost is to either rev up the engine or increase the ratio of the pulleys on the crankshaft and supercharger by taking off one pulley and putting on another pulley that costs around $165 each time you want a different boost level (Francis, 2002, p. 2).
The third component of a supercharger system, which you cannot do without, is brackets. You must have some form of bracket to mount the supercharger to the engine and additional brackets for belt tensioners for the drive belt and pulley system. Turbos use the manifold itself as the mounting bracket.

Costs

The first and perhaps most obvious benefit of turbocharging, only to an accountant, is the difference in cost between a supercharger and turbocharger system. One basic comparison in cost comes from an anonymous article on turbocharging a Ford Mustang versus supercharging a Ford Mustang. In this comparison and many other similar ones the turbocharger system is less expensive but only to the trained eye. Superchargers appear to be cheaper because the basic kit only costs $3000 whereas the turbocharger basic kit costs $4000. However the supercharger companies are very good at concealing the truth about costs (Turbocharging, 2002, p. 3).

The basic kit for a supercharger does not include the following required items for forced induction. Fuel injectors, priced at $210, are required to increase the amount of fuel in the air/fuel mixture; after all we need more fuel too not just more air. Headers, another name for the previously mentioned exhaust manifolds, are also needed and they cost around $159. The problem with putting more air into an engine is that you also have to allow more air out of an engine; these do just that. The mass air meter is a meter that is found inline between the compressor unit and the intake of the engine. It can be a major restriction if it is too small. It must be upgraded to an 80mm unit which costs $400. Spark plug wires, another $50, give you increased spark power to ignite the additional air and fuel in the cylinders. Cold air induction, which is generally priced around $250, gives you a colder initial intake air temperature, which in turn, lowers the final air intake temperature—i.e. cooler air = more power. Total price of supercharger system basic kit plus all of the additional required parts is $4070 (Turbocharging, 2002, p. 3).
Now the two systems seem to have very similar costs: turbocharger $4000, and supercharger $4070. But there is also one other thing that the turbo kit includes that the supercharger kit doesn’t: an intercooler. Intercoolers cost around $1400 for a sufficient unit. Although intercoolers aren’t required, they do add a considerable amount of horsepower to an engine and value to a kit. When you take all of this into account—as only a very keen eye would—you can see that a turbocharger system is actually cheaper than a supercharger system (Turbocharging, 2002, p. 3).

Efficiency--Reliability

Another fundamental advantage of turbochargers over superchargers is efficiency. The turbocharger system steals almost no power from the engine itself to make boost. Supercharger systems on the other hand can take as much as 20% of the engines power to make boost. It seems almost comical to think that someone would design a unit to increase power on an engine that initially takes away 20% of its power (Francis, 2002, p. 1).

Turbochargers use the exhaust gas heat and pressure from an engine to generate power for the compressor and make boost. “A turbo captures some of the energy in hot gas that normally is wasted out the tailpipe” (Robinson, 1999, p. 1). This heat and pressure would otherwise be wasted out the tailpipe and in to the atmosphere. This is “free” energy that we are harnessing here (Francis, 2002, p. 1).

On the other hand, superchargers use valuable power from the crankshaft of the engine itself to power the compressor and make boost. This power is not free and thus is a loss in horsepower that must be subtracted from the net gain in power caused by the system (Francis, 2002, p. 1).

If both systems are making 10 lbs of boost and thus generating a 40% increase in engine output on the same base 200hp engine, then the turbocharged setup would be producing 280HP and the supercharged setup would be producing 240HP. Which system would you want? The supercharger would have to increase boost pressure in order to make the same amount of power as the turbocharger. This extra boost pressure obviously will cause greater wear on the engine itself thus resulting in shorter engine life and less reliability (Francis, 2002, p. 1).
Another factor which causes superchargers to have less reliability than turbochargers is the fact that the supercharger system puts increase stress on the front half of the crankshaft due to the tension placed on it by the pulleys and belt that drive the supercharger.

Conclusion

When comparing supercharging and turbocharging systems and weighing out one’s options on what to buy to make one’s high-performance street machine faster, one must take into account the efficiency, reliability, versatility, and cost of his options. If you choose to do so, you will undoubtedly see the overwhelming superiority of turbocharging to supercharging. Many arguments have been raised at cruise-ins, dinner tables, performance shops, internet forums, and even grocery stores. But the only way to solve this argument is at the track. Time and time again, turbocharged cars have given out beatings to supercharged cars, and until the majority of racers start seeing through the facade created by supercharger companies to cover up their shortcomings, I will be included in the few that are proud to hand out those beatings—with my turbocharged racecar.

scrming

it is a stock 4.0... nothing was rebuilt...

scrming

Don't forget to smack around the CS6's when you see them... they stuck the 8.8 in them too! LOL!

MSP

Thats a good read RaginStormlocke!! Nice job... No doubt, I will have my work cut out for me.. We will have to see how this goes... For sure any 2005 V6 Mustang with Powerhouse411's turbo setup is going to be deadly... They will most likley present me with the biggest hurdles to overcome.. I am willing to try my best atleast to overcome whatever setbacks I have been given based on the laws of physics... Dont make any final decisions until you atleast give me a chance.. LOL!! I knew Mike Bowen's setup would be a problem.. I chose to confront it head on...

I aint backin down!! Its not like I have to make 3 or 4 passes a month down the quarter mile... So I am not worried about engine reliability.. It'll hold up...

Man, this summer is going to be unbelievable for sure... I would love for us all to be able to hook up someday all together at a track and support each other... We gotta somehow make this happen...

MSP

LOL!! I know!! I forgot about those!! Although a tweaked CS6 will have identicle performance to my car, accept for the rear-end gears...