Turbo Power!
1/13/06, 02:41 PM
#21
Originally posted by Hambone@January 13, 2006, 5:40 PM
Hey, give us an update on your gear/truetrac install
Hey, give us an update on your gear/truetrac install
1/13/06, 03:27 PM
#22
Cobra Member
Join Date: July 28, 2005
Posts: 1,163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Jimp@January 13, 2006, 4:32 PM
Mike had this to say about the turbo on another forum:
"I am not going to answer the question as to which one is better but alow me to point out a few things.
The non intercooled system is capable of being upgraded to the intercooled version very easily.
The non intercooled turbo will make the same amount of power and significantly more torque when compared to the intercooled supercharger.
A shot of nitrous is by no means necessary, that is typically reserved for small cu.in. with realitivly huge turbos, such as hi hp imports or even hi hp 2.3 turbo cars.
The above photo is a shot of a launch at NMRA Bowling Green KY, 9psi intercooled, 3.55 gear. On this pass the car went 12.50@111. The car is full ~ 3600lbs with driver.
The same combo above with 11.5 psi went 11.81@117 At Milan MI.
The system has no noticible "lag", which is a term that should be reserved for centrifigal superchargers, because of the design, centi s/c will not make peak boost until peak rpm, which in turn leaves torque on the table. Torque is what HP is calculated from. A turbo will make boost (if sized correctly) at a low rpm, and carry that exact level through the entire engine operating rpm.
The 4.0 is not a very rpm happy motor, with stock cams it likes to be < 5800rpm, so a low gear and early shifts are a must, most s/c guys will typically run a higher (numerically) gear to alow the s/c to get into it's peak boost faster. These higher rpm will also help shorten the life of a stock motor.
I am sure the debate will ensue, but if anyof you have any questions please feel free to give me a shout.
"
Not sure if everyone reads every forum like I do, lol!
Mike had this to say about the turbo on another forum:
"I am not going to answer the question as to which one is better but alow me to point out a few things.
The non intercooled system is capable of being upgraded to the intercooled version very easily.
The non intercooled turbo will make the same amount of power and significantly more torque when compared to the intercooled supercharger.
A shot of nitrous is by no means necessary, that is typically reserved for small cu.in. with realitivly huge turbos, such as hi hp imports or even hi hp 2.3 turbo cars.
The above photo is a shot of a launch at NMRA Bowling Green KY, 9psi intercooled, 3.55 gear. On this pass the car went 12.50@111. The car is full ~ 3600lbs with driver.
The same combo above with 11.5 psi went 11.81@117 At Milan MI.
The system has no noticible "lag", which is a term that should be reserved for centrifigal superchargers, because of the design, centi s/c will not make peak boost until peak rpm, which in turn leaves torque on the table. Torque is what HP is calculated from. A turbo will make boost (if sized correctly) at a low rpm, and carry that exact level through the entire engine operating rpm.
The 4.0 is not a very rpm happy motor, with stock cams it likes to be < 5800rpm, so a low gear and early shifts are a must, most s/c guys will typically run a higher (numerically) gear to alow the s/c to get into it's peak boost faster. These higher rpm will also help shorten the life of a stock motor.
I am sure the debate will ensue, but if anyof you have any questions please feel free to give me a shout.
"
Not sure if everyone reads every forum like I do, lol!
Ok.. back on topic... From where I was sitting in the passenger seat there was no noticable lag... The car came off the line HARD! There was plenty of torque... It really pushed my oversized hiney in the seat!
1/13/06, 03:33 PM
#23
Bullitt Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: October 14, 2005
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Decisions!!! Decisions!!! Decisions!!! :scratch:
Do I go LTs and get the X-Charger (which the manufacturer says produces the majority of its power in low RPMs) at 6 psi, changeable to 9 when I want an intercooler? :scratch:
Or do I get shorty headers, X-pipe, and a Turbo charger with intercooler, adjustable from 7 to 9 to 12? :scratch:
And do I change out the heads and the pistons? :scratch:
And is it the red or the white wine with the fish? :scratch:
Do I go LTs and get the X-Charger (which the manufacturer says produces the majority of its power in low RPMs) at 6 psi, changeable to 9 when I want an intercooler? :scratch:
Or do I get shorty headers, X-pipe, and a Turbo charger with intercooler, adjustable from 7 to 9 to 12? :scratch:
And do I change out the heads and the pistons? :scratch:
And is it the red or the white wine with the fish? :scratch:
1/13/06, 03:37 PM
#24
Originally posted by Excepcion13@January 13, 2006, 5:36 PM
Decisions!!! Decisions!!! Decisions!!! :scratch:
Do I go LTs and get the X-Charger (which the manufacturer says produces the majority of its power in low RPMs) at 6 psi, changeable to 9 when I want an intercooler? :scratch:
Or do I get shorty headers, X-pipe, and a Turbo charger with intercooler, adjustable from 7 to 9 to 12? :scratch:
And do I change out the heads and the pistons? :scratch:
And is it the red or the white wine with the fish? :scratch:
Decisions!!! Decisions!!! Decisions!!! :scratch:
Do I go LTs and get the X-Charger (which the manufacturer says produces the majority of its power in low RPMs) at 6 psi, changeable to 9 when I want an intercooler? :scratch:
Or do I get shorty headers, X-pipe, and a Turbo charger with intercooler, adjustable from 7 to 9 to 12? :scratch:
And do I change out the heads and the pistons? :scratch:
And is it the red or the white wine with the fish? :scratch:
Personally, I like Mike's TC myself. I'm inclined to start with 6psi....then if I get addicted to track, switch up to 9.
This is the route I plan to take.
1/13/06, 03:42 PM
#25
Cobra Member
Join Date: July 28, 2005
Posts: 1,163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Excepcion13@January 13, 2006, 5:36 PM
Decisions!!! Decisions!!! Decisions!!! :scratch:
Do I go LTs and get the X-Charger (which the manufacturer says produces the majority of its power in low RPMs) at 6 psi, changeable to 9 when I want an intercooler? :scratch:
Or do I get shorty headers, X-pipe, and a Turbo charger with intercooler, adjustable from 7 to 9 to 12? :scratch:
And do I change out the heads and the pistons? :scratch:
And is it the red or the white wine with the fish? :scratch:
Decisions!!! Decisions!!! Decisions!!! :scratch:
Do I go LTs and get the X-Charger (which the manufacturer says produces the majority of its power in low RPMs) at 6 psi, changeable to 9 when I want an intercooler? :scratch:
Or do I get shorty headers, X-pipe, and a Turbo charger with intercooler, adjustable from 7 to 9 to 12? :scratch:
And do I change out the heads and the pistons? :scratch:
And is it the red or the white wine with the fish? :scratch:
1/13/06, 04:01 PM
#26
Originally posted by scrming@January 13, 2006, 5:45 PM
Boone Farms goes with everything...
Boone Farms goes with everything...
It's great stuff!!! Used to give it to the ladies at house parties. LOL.
1/13/06, 04:23 PM
#27
V6 Member
Join Date: January 8, 2005
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah , its white wine that goes with the fish, although you can serve red zinfandel with swordfish or tuna steak.
Back to the topic, Turbo sounds quite interesting, I am geting one or another this summer so I hope we see some reviews and dynos by then.
Cheers!
Back to the topic, Turbo sounds quite interesting, I am geting one or another this summer so I hope we see some reviews and dynos by then.
Cheers!
1/13/06, 04:41 PM
#28
Good info here, see Mike's response to TJ:
_____________________
Posts: 7
Joined: 10/29/2005
Status: online
quote:
ORIGINAL: TJ
Mike I have some questions for you on your turbo.
Could you post or e-mail me some dyno sheets running 7psi, 9psi & 11.5psi so I can look at the them.
Could you post a PDF file or e-mail me one on the installation instructions of your turbo?
What maintenance would be needed while running your turbo?
I have researched on the 4.0 I know about the jackshafts and chains but because your turbo I believe makes peak power under 5300RPM that is a plus for them, but my question is the pistons/head gaskets.
Is it safe to run at 9psi without changing pistons or head gasket?
Is it safe to run 11.5 psi without changing the piston’s or head gasket?
I assuming the reason for no intercooler for 7psi is because it really does not need it or increase HP by much is this correct?
How much HP & TQ will you gain by adding (I am assuming not much) a intercooler when running 7 PSI
Is it a 2 core or 3 core intercooler?
Is there any difference when running your turbo at 9psi vs. running 9 psi from roots,centrifugal supercharger concerning the pistons or bottom end of the engine?
Mike I take it running 331 or 355 gears with your turbo would be better vs. 373 or 410's, for lower ET times is this correct?
Thanks
TJ
tjcj1993@sbcglobal.net
_____________________
Whew,
I will have some dyno results soon.
The istructions have yet to be written, that is one of the things that needs to be done in the next few weeks.
Typical maintainence is required, I would reccomend the use of synthetic oil, with typical oil change intervals.
The 9 psi can be run without a change to the pistons or headgaskets.
The 11.5 PSI is reccomended to have a custom tune for your car.
The charge air temps at 7 psi is not very high, and it is intended to be a "entry level" system and can make a bit more power with the addition of the intercooler (~12rwhp), but 9psi is easliy handled with the intercooler.
I never completely understood the 2 or 3 core intercooler concept (I think it comes from the time of welding mutiple i/c cores together to make one), they are not built like radiators which actually have 2,3 or 4 core rows.
But is a comparably sized core to what ProCharger refers to as a 3 CORE. It is a highly efficient bar and plate design, with minimal pressure loss and the highest heat tranfer possible. These cores are built here in the US, and are top notch.
There is a difference between 9PSI s/c'd and 9PSI t/c'd, especially as the bottom end is concerned, but I think your concern is more with power levels. And by that I mean netted rear wheel power. The short block has a tolerence of power, and detonation. The more power the engine makes (not netted) the less knock tolerant it will become.
You will net more power (all things equal) pound for pound with a Turbo simply because the turbo takes less power to operate than a s/c, netting that difference at the rear wheels. Some hi boost s/c will consume as much as 50hp to run. A top fuel engine takes in excess of 300hp to run it's s/c.
It is tough to explain but this is something that an old timer told me that sums it up very well. "Saying a turbo or supercharger makes boost is like saying a dairy farm makes cow dung" Not those exact words but you get the idea.
Boost is a byproduct of FLOW, the more resistant an engine is to accepting a VOLUME of air (created by the turbo or s/c) creates more boost.
And yes a 3.31 or 3.55 is a perfect gear for the 4.0 turbo combo when utilizing the stock cams.
I think that I got everything.
_____________________
(in reply to TJ)
[Send Private Message] Report | Post #: 25
RE: Powerhouse Turbocharger! - 1/13/2006 6:38:48 PM
New Messages
Mike@PowerHouse
Newbie
Posts: 7
Joined: 10/29/2005
Status: online
quote:
ORIGINAL: GIDDEUP
quote:
The above photo is a shot of a launch at NMRA Bowling Green KY, 9psi intercooled, 3.55 gear. On this pass the car went 12.50@111. The car is full ~ 3600lbs with driver.
The same combo above with 11.5 psi went 11.81@117 At Milan MI.
So your saying, aside from my bad driving, we should be getting 12sec runs with just this turbo and some gears? Nothing else you have done to your test car?
We had our replacement trailing arms on it as well, stock shocks all the way around, and the addition of a v8 rear sway bar as well as the 8.8, running a set of M/T drag radials.
I think that a properly built 7.5 will take the abuse though. We have never had a ring gera failurre with the 7.5, only diff carnage.
I thought that most of you knew that but I see some newwer members here and there. Scrming, Jimp and MSP know this car from the begining. In fact Scrming got to go for a spin the weekend we were up in MI.
_____________________
_____________________
Posts: 7
Joined: 10/29/2005
Status: online
quote:
ORIGINAL: TJ
Mike I have some questions for you on your turbo.
Could you post or e-mail me some dyno sheets running 7psi, 9psi & 11.5psi so I can look at the them.
Could you post a PDF file or e-mail me one on the installation instructions of your turbo?
What maintenance would be needed while running your turbo?
I have researched on the 4.0 I know about the jackshafts and chains but because your turbo I believe makes peak power under 5300RPM that is a plus for them, but my question is the pistons/head gaskets.
Is it safe to run at 9psi without changing pistons or head gasket?
Is it safe to run 11.5 psi without changing the piston’s or head gasket?
I assuming the reason for no intercooler for 7psi is because it really does not need it or increase HP by much is this correct?
How much HP & TQ will you gain by adding (I am assuming not much) a intercooler when running 7 PSI
Is it a 2 core or 3 core intercooler?
Is there any difference when running your turbo at 9psi vs. running 9 psi from roots,centrifugal supercharger concerning the pistons or bottom end of the engine?
Mike I take it running 331 or 355 gears with your turbo would be better vs. 373 or 410's, for lower ET times is this correct?
Thanks
TJ
tjcj1993@sbcglobal.net
_____________________
Whew,
I will have some dyno results soon.
The istructions have yet to be written, that is one of the things that needs to be done in the next few weeks.
Typical maintainence is required, I would reccomend the use of synthetic oil, with typical oil change intervals.
The 9 psi can be run without a change to the pistons or headgaskets.
The 11.5 PSI is reccomended to have a custom tune for your car.
The charge air temps at 7 psi is not very high, and it is intended to be a "entry level" system and can make a bit more power with the addition of the intercooler (~12rwhp), but 9psi is easliy handled with the intercooler.
I never completely understood the 2 or 3 core intercooler concept (I think it comes from the time of welding mutiple i/c cores together to make one), they are not built like radiators which actually have 2,3 or 4 core rows.
But is a comparably sized core to what ProCharger refers to as a 3 CORE. It is a highly efficient bar and plate design, with minimal pressure loss and the highest heat tranfer possible. These cores are built here in the US, and are top notch.
There is a difference between 9PSI s/c'd and 9PSI t/c'd, especially as the bottom end is concerned, but I think your concern is more with power levels. And by that I mean netted rear wheel power. The short block has a tolerence of power, and detonation. The more power the engine makes (not netted) the less knock tolerant it will become.
You will net more power (all things equal) pound for pound with a Turbo simply because the turbo takes less power to operate than a s/c, netting that difference at the rear wheels. Some hi boost s/c will consume as much as 50hp to run. A top fuel engine takes in excess of 300hp to run it's s/c.
It is tough to explain but this is something that an old timer told me that sums it up very well. "Saying a turbo or supercharger makes boost is like saying a dairy farm makes cow dung" Not those exact words but you get the idea.
Boost is a byproduct of FLOW, the more resistant an engine is to accepting a VOLUME of air (created by the turbo or s/c) creates more boost.
And yes a 3.31 or 3.55 is a perfect gear for the 4.0 turbo combo when utilizing the stock cams.
I think that I got everything.
_____________________
(in reply to TJ)
[Send Private Message] Report | Post #: 25
RE: Powerhouse Turbocharger! - 1/13/2006 6:38:48 PM
New Messages
Mike@PowerHouse
Newbie
Posts: 7
Joined: 10/29/2005
Status: online
quote:
ORIGINAL: GIDDEUP
quote:
The above photo is a shot of a launch at NMRA Bowling Green KY, 9psi intercooled, 3.55 gear. On this pass the car went 12.50@111. The car is full ~ 3600lbs with driver.
The same combo above with 11.5 psi went 11.81@117 At Milan MI.
So your saying, aside from my bad driving, we should be getting 12sec runs with just this turbo and some gears? Nothing else you have done to your test car?
We had our replacement trailing arms on it as well, stock shocks all the way around, and the addition of a v8 rear sway bar as well as the 8.8, running a set of M/T drag radials.
I think that a properly built 7.5 will take the abuse though. We have never had a ring gera failurre with the 7.5, only diff carnage.
I thought that most of you knew that but I see some newwer members here and there. Scrming, Jimp and MSP know this car from the begining. In fact Scrming got to go for a spin the weekend we were up in MI.
_____________________
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Antigini-GT/CS
2005-2009 Mustang
5
10/5/15 09:43 AM