Tested out the C&L yesterday...
12/16/05, 04:43 AM
#21
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Originally posted by rygenstormlocke@December 15, 2005, 10:24 PM
Hmmmmm....perhaps...or...
...yea right!!!!!!!!!!!! If you don't go turbo, you might just be tempted to go true dual exhaust....LOL.
Hmmmmm....perhaps...or...
...yea right!!!!!!!!!!!! If you don't go turbo, you might just be tempted to go true dual exhaust....LOL.
12/16/05, 05:54 AM
#22
Originally posted by scrming@December 16, 2005, 6:46 AM
duals??? as soon as you post at least a 5RWHP gain when you get rid of the Y-pipe... LOL!
duals??? as soon as you post at least a 5RWHP gain when you get rid of the Y-pipe... LOL!
12/16/05, 08:32 AM
#23
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Originally posted by rygenstormlocke@December 16, 2005, 8:57 AM
I've been challenged!!!! Well, so be it.....I already have my next mod on order, but in January, we will find out. And I will be doing a dyno after every mod so we will know what true duals really do.
I've been challenged!!!! Well, so be it.....I already have my next mod on order, but in January, we will find out. And I will be doing a dyno after every mod so we will know what true duals really do.
12/16/05, 10:47 AM
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Well, I spoke with Lidio today and ordered the V6 C&L intake and XCal2 tunes to match 
I have to return my current setup (JMS CAI and vanilla tunes) to stock and ship him my Xcal2 hardware. So, I'm sure it will get slowed down with the holidays, etc. but it will be something to look forward to over the next few weeks!!
Thanks for providing data and the motivation, scrming!!
I have to return my current setup (JMS CAI and vanilla tunes) to stock and ship him my Xcal2 hardware. So, I'm sure it will get slowed down with the holidays, etc. but it will be something to look forward to over the next few weeks!!
Thanks for providing data and the motivation, scrming!!
12/16/05, 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by scrming@December 14, 2005, 1:14 PM
Hint:
Oh... and the C&L seems to have given the Magnaflow a slightly deeper tone..
Hint:
Oh... and the C&L seems to have given the Magnaflow a slightly deeper tone..
Just got'a show off here too
12/16/05, 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by WinterHawk@December 16, 2005, 5:16 PM
Hey... how many of those plenum covers you got?? Last one I saw was screaming yellow?? They just became available, did ya buy 2 of'em?
Just got'a show off here too
Hey... how many of those plenum covers you got?? Last one I saw was screaming yellow?? They just became available, did ya buy 2 of'em?
Just got'a show off here too
12/16/05, 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by scrming@December 16, 2005, 6:28 PM
You're right... I do have two! I did the E-Bay thing in Sept. for the pre-production one which included a final production one... LOL!
You're right... I do have two! I did the E-Bay thing in Sept. for the pre-production one which included a final production one... LOL!
12/16/05, 03:47 PM
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Originally posted by hamidlmt@December 16, 2005, 6:29 PM
Winter... dig that plenum cover and the airaid! Looks great!
Winter... dig that plenum cover and the airaid! Looks great!
both really set off the engine bay really nice.. I'd like to get one of those steeda tower strut bars, but I don't think it'll fit with the plenum cover though? 
1/1/06, 01:45 AM
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Ex-Galaxie500:
You are not crazy. The physics does not support the claims. Changing to a K&N replacement filter and a straight dyno tune could very well get you similar numbers. Most of the legible dyno sheets I have seen posted on this forum and others show only 3-6 hp gains and 4-10 lbs of torque, and many of these include other mods such as pulleys, headers, or an exhaust system. (And even an exhaust system won't get you much unless you pull the catalytic converter for the same airflow restricting reason.) My own experience with CAIs is that they only serve to move hp from one part of the power band to another: you'll get more throttle response and torque, but you will lose it at the top end. You can improve efficiency with a tune, you can increase airflow at the filter, and you can shape the airflow differently with an intake, but you can not exceed the maximum volume of the throttle body w/o a blower or a turbo.
Tunes set to higher octane fuel are a different matter: of course horsepower should increase. Many low octane tunes will boost hp some, but you will see it come right out of the gas tank, which is OK, but it is not magic. Actually cooling the air that reaches the throttle body will increase hp one pony per ten degrees of temperature, but do you think a small plastic heat shield can accomplish much there? And take a look at the pictures, do you think the location of the air filter and heat shield in some of these CAI applications is improving or restricting maximum airflow? I am sorry to be such a drag, but I hate seeing people get taken advantage of--especially me! Many of the people making claims in forums like these are trying to sell things, have received services or incentives, or are just excited about something they have bought.
You are not crazy. The physics does not support the claims. Changing to a K&N replacement filter and a straight dyno tune could very well get you similar numbers. Most of the legible dyno sheets I have seen posted on this forum and others show only 3-6 hp gains and 4-10 lbs of torque, and many of these include other mods such as pulleys, headers, or an exhaust system. (And even an exhaust system won't get you much unless you pull the catalytic converter for the same airflow restricting reason.) My own experience with CAIs is that they only serve to move hp from one part of the power band to another: you'll get more throttle response and torque, but you will lose it at the top end. You can improve efficiency with a tune, you can increase airflow at the filter, and you can shape the airflow differently with an intake, but you can not exceed the maximum volume of the throttle body w/o a blower or a turbo.
Tunes set to higher octane fuel are a different matter: of course horsepower should increase. Many low octane tunes will boost hp some, but you will see it come right out of the gas tank, which is OK, but it is not magic. Actually cooling the air that reaches the throttle body will increase hp one pony per ten degrees of temperature, but do you think a small plastic heat shield can accomplish much there? And take a look at the pictures, do you think the location of the air filter and heat shield in some of these CAI applications is improving or restricting maximum airflow? I am sorry to be such a drag, but I hate seeing people get taken advantage of--especially me! Many of the people making claims in forums like these are trying to sell things, have received services or incentives, or are just excited about something they have bought.
1/1/06, 06:58 AM
#32
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Originally posted by T-stang@January 1, 2006, 3:48 AM
Ex-Galaxie500:
You are not crazy. The physics does not support the claims. Changing to a K&N replacement filter and a straight dyno tune could very well get you similar numbers. Most of the legible dyno sheets I have seen posted on this forum and others show only 3-6 hp gains and 4-10 lbs of torque, and many of these include other mods such as pulleys, headers, or an exhaust system. (And even an exhaust system won't get you much unless you pull the catalytic converter for the same airflow restricting reason.) My own experience with CAIs is that they only serve to move hp from one part of the power band to another: you'll get more throttle response and torque, but you will lose it at the top end. You can improve efficiency with a tune, you can increase airflow at the filter, and you can shape the airflow differently with an intake, but you can not exceed the maximum volume of the throttle body w/o a blower or a turbo.
Tunes set to higher octane fuel are a different matter: of course horsepower should increase. Many low octane tunes will boost hp some, but you will see it come right out of the gas tank, which is OK, but it is not magic. Actually cooling the air that reaches the throttle body will increase hp one pony per ten degrees of temperature, but do you think a small plastic heat shield can accomplish much there? And take a look at the pictures, do you think the location of the air filter and heat shield in some of these CAI applications is improving or restricting maximum airflow? I am sorry to be such a drag, but I hate seeing people get taken advantage of--especially me! Many of the people making claims in forums like these are trying to sell things, have received services or incentives, or are just excited about something they have bought.
Ex-Galaxie500:
You are not crazy. The physics does not support the claims. Changing to a K&N replacement filter and a straight dyno tune could very well get you similar numbers. Most of the legible dyno sheets I have seen posted on this forum and others show only 3-6 hp gains and 4-10 lbs of torque, and many of these include other mods such as pulleys, headers, or an exhaust system. (And even an exhaust system won't get you much unless you pull the catalytic converter for the same airflow restricting reason.) My own experience with CAIs is that they only serve to move hp from one part of the power band to another: you'll get more throttle response and torque, but you will lose it at the top end. You can improve efficiency with a tune, you can increase airflow at the filter, and you can shape the airflow differently with an intake, but you can not exceed the maximum volume of the throttle body w/o a blower or a turbo.
Tunes set to higher octane fuel are a different matter: of course horsepower should increase. Many low octane tunes will boost hp some, but you will see it come right out of the gas tank, which is OK, but it is not magic. Actually cooling the air that reaches the throttle body will increase hp one pony per ten degrees of temperature, but do you think a small plastic heat shield can accomplish much there? And take a look at the pictures, do you think the location of the air filter and heat shield in some of these CAI applications is improving or restricting maximum airflow? I am sorry to be such a drag, but I hate seeing people get taken advantage of--especially me! Many of the people making claims in forums like these are trying to sell things, have received services or incentives, or are just excited about something they have bought.
Here is a stock air box vs the C&L. You notice that the stock air box and the C&L perform identically to about 4000 RPM and then the C&L starts to pull away... So really you don't lose any top end... you actually gain in the top end...
Now as far as increase throttle response... I wonder if it's not like EX say, there is air in reserve in the tube... especially in the C&L which has a huge tube! LOL!
Here's the graph, stock is red, C&L is blue...
1/3/06, 06:55 PM
#33
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Thanks for the graph Scrming!
But note the numbers: 5.6 hp and 0.3 lbs. of torque. The most consistent gains are actually over 4500 rpms, and from 0-4000 rpms the stock filter actually beats or matches the CAI! At 2300-2400 rpms the stock unit actually makes 1-2 more hp and 5-10 lbs. more torque! The air/fuel numbers at the bottom show better flow for the stock box until 4000 rpms, although the CAI outflows the stock unit starting at 5500 rpms. Personally, I do nearly all of my driving under 4500 rpms, so is it worth it? I would really like to see numbers for a replacement K&N filter with a stock or simple street tune. :scratch:
But note the numbers: 5.6 hp and 0.3 lbs. of torque. The most consistent gains are actually over 4500 rpms, and from 0-4000 rpms the stock filter actually beats or matches the CAI! At 2300-2400 rpms the stock unit actually makes 1-2 more hp and 5-10 lbs. more torque! The air/fuel numbers at the bottom show better flow for the stock box until 4000 rpms, although the CAI outflows the stock unit starting at 5500 rpms. Personally, I do nearly all of my driving under 4500 rpms, so is it worth it? I would really like to see numbers for a replacement K&N filter with a stock or simple street tune. :scratch:
1/3/06, 07:30 PM
#34
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Originally posted by T-stang@January 3, 2006, 8:58 PM
Thanks for the graph Scrming!
But note the numbers: 5.6 hp and 0.3 lbs. of torque. The most consistent gains are actually over 4500 rpms, and from 0-4000 rpms the stock filter actually beats or matches the CAI! At 2300-2400 rpms the stock unit actually makes 1-2 more hp and 5-10 lbs. more torque! The air/fuel numbers at the bottom show better flow for the stock box until 4000 rpms, although the CAI outflows the stock unit starting at 5500 rpms. Personally, I do nearly all of my driving under 4500 rpms, so is it worth it? I would really like to see numbers for a replacement K&N filter with a stock or simple street tune. :scratch:
Thanks for the graph Scrming!
But note the numbers: 5.6 hp and 0.3 lbs. of torque. The most consistent gains are actually over 4500 rpms, and from 0-4000 rpms the stock filter actually beats or matches the CAI! At 2300-2400 rpms the stock unit actually makes 1-2 more hp and 5-10 lbs. more torque! The air/fuel numbers at the bottom show better flow for the stock box until 4000 rpms, although the CAI outflows the stock unit starting at 5500 rpms. Personally, I do nearly all of my driving under 4500 rpms, so is it worth it? I would really like to see numbers for a replacement K&N filter with a stock or simple street tune. :scratch:
Yep, I agree 100%... I don't believe the stock air box is all that bad... The MMR CAI exhibited the same thing... It seems the aftermarket CAI's really don't seem to make a difference until you get above 4000RPM... If you read most peoples review they say their car pulls harder at the top end...
You say the difference doesn't start to 5500? Is that a typo? By 4500 the C&L is clearly out performing the stock air box...
The other thing is the C&L seems to have improved throttle response... for what ever reason... even over the MMR... this isn't really measurable or show up on the dyno... but it definitely was there...
I actually spend a fair amount of time above 4000RPM... LOL!
1/3/06, 07:45 PM
#35
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I too noticed a big difference with adding my intake. Dont have any dynos (before or after) to prove anything. But back to back weeks with the same 60ft times at the track i droped almost 2 tenths of a second.
1/3/06, 07:48 PM
#36
Originally posted by Fazm@January 3, 2006, 9:48 PM
I too noticed a big difference with adding my intake. Dont have any dynos (before or after) to prove anything. But back to back weeks with the same 60ft times at the track i droped almost 2 tenths of a second.
I too noticed a big difference with adding my intake. Dont have any dynos (before or after) to prove anything. But back to back weeks with the same 60ft times at the track i droped almost 2 tenths of a second.
Dynos are nice, but times are where it counts. Good to know it dropped your 60 second time.
1/3/06, 08:04 PM
#37
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60 second time? lol quarter mile time you mean?
but ya, it did. If i get the ALT pulley before friday, i will take it to the track again. Then when my posi comes in, ill take it to the track yet again. See how much of an increase each one gets me.
EDIT: *crossing my fingers to get into the 14.4's by the end of january*
but ya, it did. If i get the ALT pulley before friday, i will take it to the track again. Then when my posi comes in, ill take it to the track yet again. See how much of an increase each one gets me.
EDIT: *crossing my fingers to get into the 14.4's by the end of january*
1/3/06, 08:12 PM
#38
Originally posted by Fazm@January 3, 2006, 10:07 PM
60 second time? lol quarter mile time you mean?
but ya, it did. If i get the ALT pulley before friday, i will take it to the track again. Then when my posi comes in, ill take it to the track yet again. See how much of an increase each one gets me.
EDIT: *crossing my fingers to get into the 14.4's by the end of january*
60 second time? lol quarter mile time you mean?
but ya, it did. If i get the ALT pulley before friday, i will take it to the track again. Then when my posi comes in, ill take it to the track yet again. See how much of an increase each one gets me.
EDIT: *crossing my fingers to get into the 14.4's by the end of january*
The track is still open in AZ, guess so...must be nice. Here on the rainy, icy and snowy east coast, track season closes in early Nov and dosent open back up till March. :bang:
1/5/06, 01:48 PM
#39
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Scrming:
The 5500 rpm number is from the separate air/fuel graph located at the bottom of your dyno sheet. See how the blue line jumps above the red line at 5500 rpms? This would indicate greater flow and I think this is where your improved top end is coming from.
I too have noticed improved throttle response from aftermarket CAIs on other model vehicles. But throttle response, hp, and torque are not the same thing. I think the better throttle response comes from the improved filter element, which is why I think a K&N style replacement filter might net the same dyno numbers we have seen posted here so far. (It could also be the result of any built-in type of velocity stack in the CAI filter element.)
On another thread, I mention how Ford Racing's V-8 CAI is a filter and heat shield affair only that still uses the stock inlet tube. It comes with a Ford Racing calibrated 93 octane flash tuner, and is recommended for use with 93 octane fuel and that flash tune only! I doubt that any aftermarket CAI is going to produce more than 3-6 hp without a similar 93 octane-and-flash set up, because without the extra octane you are just going to lean out the air/fuel mixture. You can make gains running leaner, but the on board computer can only compensate so much before you start to sputter or run hot. 93 octane fuel and an adjusted tune would eliminate these concerns.
The 5500 rpm number is from the separate air/fuel graph located at the bottom of your dyno sheet. See how the blue line jumps above the red line at 5500 rpms? This would indicate greater flow and I think this is where your improved top end is coming from.
I too have noticed improved throttle response from aftermarket CAIs on other model vehicles. But throttle response, hp, and torque are not the same thing. I think the better throttle response comes from the improved filter element, which is why I think a K&N style replacement filter might net the same dyno numbers we have seen posted here so far. (It could also be the result of any built-in type of velocity stack in the CAI filter element.)
On another thread, I mention how Ford Racing's V-8 CAI is a filter and heat shield affair only that still uses the stock inlet tube. It comes with a Ford Racing calibrated 93 octane flash tuner, and is recommended for use with 93 octane fuel and that flash tune only! I doubt that any aftermarket CAI is going to produce more than 3-6 hp without a similar 93 octane-and-flash set up, because without the extra octane you are just going to lean out the air/fuel mixture. You can make gains running leaner, but the on board computer can only compensate so much before you start to sputter or run hot. 93 octane fuel and an adjusted tune would eliminate these concerns.
1/5/06, 04:07 PM
#40
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Originally posted by T-stang@January 5, 2006, 3:51 PM
Scrming:
The 5500 rpm number is from the separate air/fuel graph located at the bottom of your dyno sheet. See how the blue line jumps above the red line at 5500 rpms? This would indicate greater flow and I think this is where your improved top end is coming from.
I too have noticed improved throttle response from aftermarket CAIs on other model vehicles. But throttle response, hp, and torque are not the same thing. I think the better throttle response comes from the improved filter element, which is why I think a K&N style replacement filter might net the same dyno numbers we have seen posted here so far. (It could also be the result of any built-in type of velocity stack in the CAI filter element.)
On another thread, I mention how Ford Racing's V-8 CAI is a filter and heat shield affair only that still uses the stock inlet tube. It comes with a Ford Racing calibrated 93 octane flash tuner, and is recommended for use with 93 octane fuel and that flash tune only! I doubt that any aftermarket CAI is going to produce more than 3-6 hp without a similar 93 octane-and-flash set up, because without the extra octane you are just going to lean out the air/fuel mixture. You can make gains running leaner, but the on board computer can only compensate so much before you start to sputter or run hot. 93 octane fuel and an adjusted tune would eliminate these concerns.
Scrming:
The 5500 rpm number is from the separate air/fuel graph located at the bottom of your dyno sheet. See how the blue line jumps above the red line at 5500 rpms? This would indicate greater flow and I think this is where your improved top end is coming from.
I too have noticed improved throttle response from aftermarket CAIs on other model vehicles. But throttle response, hp, and torque are not the same thing. I think the better throttle response comes from the improved filter element, which is why I think a K&N style replacement filter might net the same dyno numbers we have seen posted here so far. (It could also be the result of any built-in type of velocity stack in the CAI filter element.)
On another thread, I mention how Ford Racing's V-8 CAI is a filter and heat shield affair only that still uses the stock inlet tube. It comes with a Ford Racing calibrated 93 octane flash tuner, and is recommended for use with 93 octane fuel and that flash tune only! I doubt that any aftermarket CAI is going to produce more than 3-6 hp without a similar 93 octane-and-flash set up, because without the extra octane you are just going to lean out the air/fuel mixture. You can make gains running leaner, but the on board computer can only compensate so much before you start to sputter or run hot. 93 octane fuel and an adjusted tune would eliminate these concerns.
I had the MMR CAI WITH the solid high flow tube... the C&L outperformed it on the dyno... The MMR also had a K&N cone type filter... yet the C&L gave me what I perceived as an improved throttle repsonse..
MMR claims that their CAI does not need a tune... but like you said all it did to make power was to lean the car out... if you look at the data I collected the MMR actually tricked the car's computer into thinking it was getting LESS air there by causing the car to lean out and give you the power gain...
Also for anyone who has the MMR high flow tube... the kit comes with a piece of heater hose that you use to replace the PCV hose since the MMR tube doesnt have the correct rib on the tube to attach the PCV hose... Hopefully you know what i'm talking about... anyways... now I find out that the heater hose does not like being exposed to engine oil... It's been brought to my attention just how bad of an idea it is to use heater hose for this application... Needless to say MMR instruction have you cut the PCV hose to use the end that goes on the PCV valve... well now I have the C&L which does have the correct rib and can use the stock PCV hose... needless to say I spent $36 yesterday at the dealership for a replacement PCV hose... argh!!!
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