Taking Zex to the next level on a V6
2/27/06, 03:44 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Ok, been thinking about this, reason being is I’m on the fence on Turbo vs. Nitrous, and considering I only do track racing, I’m thinking the Nitrous may be my best avenue. So, this track season I will be focusing on 100HP shot, but may want to up it to 125 part way through the season…and also thinking long term…..
……what do we need to do to go to 150HP shot????
Of course it is different for Autos vs. Manuals, so feel free to drill into that one.
Engine
We know mike ran 150 shot, of course some things broke, but the engine did hold up. But for long term dual purpose car (i.e. daily driver/track car) should we look at head, piston and cam work. If so, should we do all of the above? Or only the pistons?
Rear End
On a manual, we know we need to go 8.8 or a TT. But what about a Auto with a TLOK and a Girdle.
Misc.
Keep in mind all of this is assuming we are running street or DR’s. Not Slicks!!!!!
I want to weigh this approach vs. Mikes Turbo. Several of us have invested in the juice, don’t street race and keeping the juice with the right configuration may yield the same gains at the track. I know we have answered a lot of these questions in various tid-bits via other threads, but thought a consolidation would help.
Everyone’s thoughts?
……what do we need to do to go to 150HP shot????
Of course it is different for Autos vs. Manuals, so feel free to drill into that one.
Engine
We know mike ran 150 shot, of course some things broke, but the engine did hold up. But for long term dual purpose car (i.e. daily driver/track car) should we look at head, piston and cam work. If so, should we do all of the above? Or only the pistons?
Rear End
On a manual, we know we need to go 8.8 or a TT. But what about a Auto with a TLOK and a Girdle.
Misc.
Keep in mind all of this is assuming we are running street or DR’s. Not Slicks!!!!!
I want to weigh this approach vs. Mikes Turbo. Several of us have invested in the juice, don’t street race and keeping the juice with the right configuration may yield the same gains at the track. I know we have answered a lot of these questions in various tid-bits via other threads, but thought a consolidation would help.
Everyone’s thoughts?
2/27/06, 04:05 PM
#2
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You are right , on the track it wont trap as much as a turbo but ET should be pretty close if u keep improving ur set up. When we use nitrous down here we set the bottle pressure to 1025 psi , what pressure do u run it at?
2/27/06, 04:06 PM
#3
Thread Starter
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Puerto Rico 4.6 @ February 27, 2006, 6:08 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
You are right , on the track it wont trap as much as a turbo but ET should be pretty close if u keep improving ur set up. When we use nitrous down here we set the bottle pressure to 1025 psi , what pressure do u run it at?
[/b][/quote]
I run at 900psi right now. The guys at excessive said I can go a bit higher I think. I really want to give this one some thought, I'm talking a 1 year project. But think it would be well worth it.
You are right , on the track it wont trap as much as a turbo but ET should be pretty close if u keep improving ur set up. When we use nitrous down here we set the bottle pressure to 1025 psi , what pressure do u run it at?
[/b][/quote]
I run at 900psi right now. The guys at excessive said I can go a bit higher I think. I really want to give this one some thought, I'm talking a 1 year project. But think it would be well worth it.
2/27/06, 04:27 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Rygn
Engine
We know mike ran 150 shot, of course some things broke, but the engine did hold up. But for long term dual purpose car (i.e. daily driver/track car) should we look at head, piston and cam work. If so, should we do all of the above? Or only the pistons?[/b][/quote]
If you are going to do pistons why not while it's a part might as well do heads and cams, but if you are going to spend all that money anyway why not just run the 150 shot carefully and when your ready. See how far the motor goes and if does blow then go ahead and do heads, cams, and pistons, you're just about going to spend the same amount either way.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Rear End
On a manual, we know we need to go 8.8 or a TT. But what about a Auto with a TLOK and a Girdle.[/b][/quote]
I thought the 7.5 beefed up was fine not great but fine with the turbo @ 9psi for street tires and DR as long as your not coming out at 5K the way Scrming says Mike was in competion pushing the car to the max. The auto with the T-lock I would think you would be fine.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Ok, been thinking about this, reason being is I’m on the fence on Turbo vs. Nitrous, and considering I only do track racing, I’m thinking the Nitrous may be my best avenue. So, this track season I will be focusing on 100HP shot, but may want to up it to 125 part way through the season…and also thinking long term…..[/b][/quote]
That only you can decide but if you don't have the need enough for the power at times street driving then I agree you with your reasoning above to go nitrous only for track only. I want the turbo for track (mainly) to have fun and see where I go with it but also want/ need the power on tap for the street not ness for racing just when I cruise go to car meets with friends etc if I want to jump on it or just feel need for some of the power to go through a couple of gears hard its on tap.
Rygn just sharing some thoughts.
Engine
We know mike ran 150 shot, of course some things broke, but the engine did hold up. But for long term dual purpose car (i.e. daily driver/track car) should we look at head, piston and cam work. If so, should we do all of the above? Or only the pistons?[/b][/quote]
If you are going to do pistons why not while it's a part might as well do heads and cams, but if you are going to spend all that money anyway why not just run the 150 shot carefully and when your ready. See how far the motor goes and if does blow then go ahead and do heads, cams, and pistons, you're just about going to spend the same amount either way.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Rear End
On a manual, we know we need to go 8.8 or a TT. But what about a Auto with a TLOK and a Girdle.[/b][/quote]
I thought the 7.5 beefed up was fine not great but fine with the turbo @ 9psi for street tires and DR as long as your not coming out at 5K the way Scrming says Mike was in competion pushing the car to the max. The auto with the T-lock I would think you would be fine.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Ok, been thinking about this, reason being is I’m on the fence on Turbo vs. Nitrous, and considering I only do track racing, I’m thinking the Nitrous may be my best avenue. So, this track season I will be focusing on 100HP shot, but may want to up it to 125 part way through the season…and also thinking long term…..[/b][/quote]
That only you can decide but if you don't have the need enough for the power at times street driving then I agree you with your reasoning above to go nitrous only for track only. I want the turbo for track (mainly) to have fun and see where I go with it but also want/ need the power on tap for the street not ness for racing just when I cruise go to car meets with friends etc if I want to jump on it or just feel need for some of the power to go through a couple of gears hard its on tap.
Rygn just sharing some thoughts.
2/27/06, 04:31 PM
#5
Thread Starter
Ok, asuming I go with building up the motor (head/cam/piston), am I limiting myself on the 150 shot. What can a built motor take on these things?
2/27/06, 04:46 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rygenstormlocke @ February 27, 2006, 5:34 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Ok, asuming I go with building up the motor (head/cam/piston), am I limiting myself on the 150 shot. What can a built motor take on these things?
[/b][/quote]
Rygn I do not know Nitrous well enough but if you build it pistons heads cam and spend the money do you want to build it for Nitrous? or Mikes turbo @ 12psi and poss. well over 450 +RWHP on turbo along???
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]
Ok, asuming I go with building up the motor (head/cam/piston), am I limiting myself on the 150 shot. What can a built motor take on these things?
[/b][/quote]
Rygn I do not know Nitrous well enough but if you build it pistons heads cam and spend the money do you want to build it for Nitrous? or Mikes turbo @ 12psi and poss. well over 450 +RWHP on turbo along???
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]
2/27/06, 04:49 PM
#7
Thread Starter
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJ06 @ February 27, 2006, 6:49 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Rygn I do not know Nitrous well enough but if you build it pistons heads cam and spend the money do you want to build it for Nitrous? or Mikes turbo @ 12psi and poss. well over 450 +RWHP on turbo along???
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
Grrr, stop giving me options. LOL. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif[/img] The juice keeps me safe, cause I have it rigged that I can't use it on the street. The Turbo is power that is always there. I pride myself on ignoring the ricers that challenge me on a daily basis. The turbo will get me in trouble for sure.....
....but what does the turbo mean for my ET's.
Doh.....
Rygn I do not know Nitrous well enough but if you build it pistons heads cam and spend the money do you want to build it for Nitrous? or Mikes turbo @ 12psi and poss. well over 450 +RWHP on turbo along???
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
Grrr, stop giving me options. LOL. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif[/img] The juice keeps me safe, cause I have it rigged that I can't use it on the street. The Turbo is power that is always there. I pride myself on ignoring the ricers that challenge me on a daily basis. The turbo will get me in trouble for sure.....
....but what does the turbo mean for my ET's.
Doh.....
2/27/06, 05:35 PM
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the problem with a shot of n2o, is that it's all at once... where a turbo/super keeps even boost throughout the range.
Which is why HP #s kinda suck, but torque is amazing. All the power hits at once, low in the torque range (more n2o per cylinder = more torque per cycle), but as the rpms increase, you get less n2o/gas per stroke, and your torque starts to drop dramatically.
I've read that scrmn has done a 100 shot at 2200rpm. In theory, you could run a 200 shot at 4400 rpm, and have similar effects on the engine pressures per stroke, except at a higher rpm. (although I think sprayin at 2200 is just crazy nutz)
Or, using a few rpm window switches, a 100 shot from 2200-5800, a 50 shot from 3400-5700, and another 50 shot from 4400-5600.
I hear there are progressive rpm controlled nitrous controllers that do this sort of thing for you, however upon further investigation, I realized they end up pulsing the cylenoid on/off/on/off quickly, basing the percentage allowed through on the time it is set to off. I really don't like the idea of pulsing cylenoids that fast, and chancing getting one stuck open.
This could keep you in the 400 lbs torque range much longer into the rpm cycle, and would make for one heck of a ride (if it didn't explode).
I am by far a nitrous 'expert'. I've read a lot on it, and have hooked up a few vehicles. I'm working on a custom system for my 05 V6... we'll see how that goes...
Which is why HP #s kinda suck, but torque is amazing. All the power hits at once, low in the torque range (more n2o per cylinder = more torque per cycle), but as the rpms increase, you get less n2o/gas per stroke, and your torque starts to drop dramatically.
I've read that scrmn has done a 100 shot at 2200rpm. In theory, you could run a 200 shot at 4400 rpm, and have similar effects on the engine pressures per stroke, except at a higher rpm. (although I think sprayin at 2200 is just crazy nutz)
Or, using a few rpm window switches, a 100 shot from 2200-5800, a 50 shot from 3400-5700, and another 50 shot from 4400-5600.
I hear there are progressive rpm controlled nitrous controllers that do this sort of thing for you, however upon further investigation, I realized they end up pulsing the cylenoid on/off/on/off quickly, basing the percentage allowed through on the time it is set to off. I really don't like the idea of pulsing cylenoids that fast, and chancing getting one stuck open.
This could keep you in the 400 lbs torque range much longer into the rpm cycle, and would make for one heck of a ride (if it didn't explode).
I am by far a nitrous 'expert'. I've read a lot on it, and have hooked up a few vehicles. I'm working on a custom system for my 05 V6... we'll see how that goes...
2/27/06, 05:35 PM
#10
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fazm @ February 27, 2006, 6:58 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
SSM's built shortblock is good for 15-20psi on the turbo. So lets say, tuned correctly... 175-200 shot of nitrous?
[/b][/quote]
Is that with an 8.8 CR or 10.0?
SSM's built shortblock is good for 15-20psi on the turbo. So lets say, tuned correctly... 175-200 shot of nitrous?
[/b][/quote]
Is that with an 8.8 CR or 10.0?
2/27/06, 06:00 PM
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I'd be tempted to dive inside the motor at this point and build up the bottom end for some more serious gains, because I can see where you are going [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img] There's some great info on this page about beefing up sixxers:
http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/pdf/40SOHCTech.pdf
Sounds like cams, valves and pistons are a must. The rods might be OK, but could probably stand some work too. They don't like the head design because of all the swiss-cheesing. They report blown head gaskets and cracked pistons at 8psi! Sounds like they're working on a beefier head gasket.
http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/pdf/40SOHCTech.pdf
Sounds like cams, valves and pistons are a must. The rods might be OK, but could probably stand some work too. They don't like the head design because of all the swiss-cheesing. They report blown head gaskets and cracked pistons at 8psi! Sounds like they're working on a beefier head gasket.
2/27/06, 06:25 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tres Wright @ February 27, 2006, 8:03 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I'd be tempted to dive inside the motor at this point and build up the bottom end for some more serious gains, because I can see where you are going [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img] There's some great info on this page about beefing up sixxers:
http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/pdf/40SOHCTech.pdf
Sounds like cams, valves and pistons are a must. The rods might be OK, but could probably stand some work too. They don't like the head design because of all the swiss-cheesing. They report blown head gaskets and cracked pistons at 8psi! Sounds like they're working on a beefier head gasket.
[/b][/quote]
my favorite article...
One other thing to think about with the 150HP shot is the fuel... Mike mentioned that at the 150HP shot, the fuel became an issue... so you'll need to address that...
One thing to remember about cams... You are trying to keep this as a reliable DD... new cams could require quite a bit tuning... ??? and while it may be great on the juice, what will it do to the drivability of your car on the street???
I'd be tempted to dive inside the motor at this point and build up the bottom end for some more serious gains, because I can see where you are going [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img] There's some great info on this page about beefing up sixxers:
http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/pdf/40SOHCTech.pdf
Sounds like cams, valves and pistons are a must. The rods might be OK, but could probably stand some work too. They don't like the head design because of all the swiss-cheesing. They report blown head gaskets and cracked pistons at 8psi! Sounds like they're working on a beefier head gasket.
[/b][/quote]
my favorite article...
One other thing to think about with the 150HP shot is the fuel... Mike mentioned that at the 150HP shot, the fuel became an issue... so you'll need to address that...
One thing to remember about cams... You are trying to keep this as a reliable DD... new cams could require quite a bit tuning... ??? and while it may be great on the juice, what will it do to the drivability of your car on the street???
2/27/06, 06:29 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BlackLX4.0 @ February 27, 2006, 6:38 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Is that with an 8.8 CR or 10.0?
[/b][/quote]
8.8:1 compression ratio
Is that with an 8.8 CR or 10.0?
[/b][/quote]
8.8:1 compression ratio
2/27/06, 06:48 PM
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I've found the supersix article to be somewhat biased. Some people take it as the gospel truth, but they have been proved wrong on many occasions from things they have said. MSP, belial, Mike, have all boosted thier engines, some well over 8 psi and nothing has blown. While this may be a precaution, it isnt neccesarily needed. And as scrming said, mike was having a fuel problem at the 150 shot. You may want to ask him what he was thinking of doing if he were going to continue to spray.
2/27/06, 07:08 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>The juice keeps me safe, cause I have it rigged that I can't use it on the street.
Several of us have invested in the juice, don’t street race and keeping the juice with the right configuration may yield the same gains at the track.[/b][/quote]
Ok Rygn you have set that car up nice and juice is already flowing through it’s veins and reading enough of your quotes you sure seem to really want to just stay Nitrous (no street temptation etc) this summer. You’re car is already setup and your like Scrming you guys take it slow and don’t rush and inch your way up there. Your going to be in the 12’s on the cheap already and you have a friend in Scrming and vice versa and you guys will push each other for sure for more HP/TQ and best ET. When I think of the best Nitrous (Scrming ET’ & soon your ET) massive TQ on the net forum I think of Scrming first and then you per dyno (rivalry for sure) OH but look there is someone in the rearview mirror coming pretty fast and not to be taking lightly it’s JIMP!!!!. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] Let’s see how far the nitrous gang can go and compete with the others if not hold the best ET.
Then of course Mr. MSP and his Conrad’s in arms looks to be poss. Flap and Belial for the S/C gang another up and coming fast crowd.
Then when I think of the two fastest NA only it looks to be PR 4.6 and Fazm very impressive times & drivers (MT) for their mods!! I look forward to see more from these two NA.
I would just go Nitrous if I was you Rygn you seem to me to want to go that route and with Scrming this year (R&D) up the shots slowly on the stock motors if you plan to rebuild see how far you can push them then decide should something wrong rebuild if not then next year try another route. But hey if you want to build now and go another route it sure will be great to watch.
But explore it in this thread I am sure other people will offer good suggestions and advice on your questions per post to help you decide and poss. others to decide.
Several of us have invested in the juice, don’t street race and keeping the juice with the right configuration may yield the same gains at the track.[/b][/quote]
Ok Rygn you have set that car up nice and juice is already flowing through it’s veins and reading enough of your quotes you sure seem to really want to just stay Nitrous (no street temptation etc) this summer. You’re car is already setup and your like Scrming you guys take it slow and don’t rush and inch your way up there. Your going to be in the 12’s on the cheap already and you have a friend in Scrming and vice versa and you guys will push each other for sure for more HP/TQ and best ET. When I think of the best Nitrous (Scrming ET’ & soon your ET) massive TQ on the net forum I think of Scrming first and then you per dyno (rivalry for sure) OH but look there is someone in the rearview mirror coming pretty fast and not to be taking lightly it’s JIMP!!!!. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] Let’s see how far the nitrous gang can go and compete with the others if not hold the best ET.
Then of course Mr. MSP and his Conrad’s in arms looks to be poss. Flap and Belial for the S/C gang another up and coming fast crowd.
Then when I think of the two fastest NA only it looks to be PR 4.6 and Fazm very impressive times & drivers (MT) for their mods!! I look forward to see more from these two NA.
I would just go Nitrous if I was you Rygn you seem to me to want to go that route and with Scrming this year (R&D) up the shots slowly on the stock motors if you plan to rebuild see how far you can push them then decide should something wrong rebuild if not then next year try another route. But hey if you want to build now and go another route it sure will be great to watch.
But explore it in this thread I am sure other people will offer good suggestions and advice on your questions per post to help you decide and poss. others to decide.
2/27/06, 07:10 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJ06 @ February 27, 2006, 8:57 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Ok Rygn you have set that car up nice and juice is already flowing through it’s veins and reading enough of your quotes you sure seem to really want to just stay Nitrous %2
[/b][/quote]
well... I'll make a few passes N/A this weekend and we'll see who is still the fastest N/A... LOL!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(blaster199 @ February 27, 2006, 8:51 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I've found the supersix article to be somewhat biased. Some people take it as the gospel truth, but they have been proved wrong on many occasions from things they have said. MSP, belial, Mike, have all boosted thier engines, some well over 8 psi and nothing has blown. While this may be a precaution, it isnt neccesarily needed. And as scrming said, mike was having a fuel problem at the 150 shot. You may want to ask him what he was thinking of doing if he were going to continue to spray.
[/b][/quote]
"somewhat biased".... AMEN! LOL!
Ok Rygn you have set that car up nice and juice is already flowing through it’s veins and reading enough of your quotes you sure seem to really want to just stay Nitrous %2
[/b][/quote]
well... I'll make a few passes N/A this weekend and we'll see who is still the fastest N/A... LOL!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(blaster199 @ February 27, 2006, 8:51 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I've found the supersix article to be somewhat biased. Some people take it as the gospel truth, but they have been proved wrong on many occasions from things they have said. MSP, belial, Mike, have all boosted thier engines, some well over 8 psi and nothing has blown. While this may be a precaution, it isnt neccesarily needed. And as scrming said, mike was having a fuel problem at the 150 shot. You may want to ask him what he was thinking of doing if he were going to continue to spray.
[/b][/quote]
"somewhat biased".... AMEN! LOL!
2/27/06, 07:12 PM
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hey cool, my name is FRAM lol. reminds me of the NAPA commercial wit the orange county chopper ppl "napa stands for reliability.... i wish my name was napa"
And Scrming, ill just have to get mine setup for march 10th (if i get my xcal2 in time) and ill challenge your n/a time lol
And Scrming, ill just have to get mine setup for march 10th (if i get my xcal2 in time) and ill challenge your n/a time lol
2/27/06, 07:17 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(scrming @ February 27, 2006, 8:13 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
well... I'll make a few passes N/A this weekend and we'll see who is still the fastest N/A... LOL!
"somewhat biased".... AMEN! LOL!
[/b][/quote]
No [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] you misunderstood me.
You are in the Nitrous/ NA class you can own both titles in your class if you have the best nitrous ET and the best NA ET and of course if you have the best NA ET it will be the best NA ET preiod.
But Fazm and PR are in the NA only class.
well... I'll make a few passes N/A this weekend and we'll see who is still the fastest N/A... LOL!
"somewhat biased".... AMEN! LOL!
[/b][/quote]
No [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] you misunderstood me.
You are in the Nitrous/ NA class you can own both titles in your class if you have the best nitrous ET and the best NA ET and of course if you have the best NA ET it will be the best NA ET preiod.
But Fazm and PR are in the NA only class.