C&L intake is now out... really!
11/13/05, 03:53 PM
#21
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Originally posted by Zodiac@November 13, 2005, 1:30 PM
I know a few people who asked so here's the results: I talked with Doug from Bamachips today and he will be producing a tune for the C&L intake. He has peronal relations with the company and is expecting a unit as soon as humanly possible. They are still pushing him off, telling him they have been sent into production but it seems nothing has been produced yet. As soon as he gets ahold of a unit he's going to call me, and we'll get my car and that unit up on the dyno. I have a manual car and he has the tuning knowledge so there will be no doubts left as to what the C&L unit can do.
I know a few people who asked so here's the results: I talked with Doug from Bamachips today and he will be producing a tune for the C&L intake. He has peronal relations with the company and is expecting a unit as soon as humanly possible. They are still pushing him off, telling him they have been sent into production but it seems nothing has been produced yet. As soon as he gets ahold of a unit he's going to call me, and we'll get my car and that unit up on the dyno. I have a manual car and he has the tuning knowledge so there will be no doubts left as to what the C&L unit can do.
11/14/05, 10:05 PM
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Originally posted by Zodiac@November 12, 2005, 8:21 PM
They claim a MAX of 15 hp with a tune. That is WITH the spike from the torque converter. Before the spike where its level, its much less of a gain. It appears to be 9, maybe 10 hp gain. They also have bumpted the timing 7 degrees using an 87 octane "mixture." It should only be raised 4-5 at most. 7 is a little extreme. Rasing the timing is going to produce more power, but it doesnt seem safe to me on 87 octane. Doesnt even seem to give an adequate base for a dyno pull.
I cant justify an extra $100 for fudged numbers an 2hp gain on the C&L. I had high expectations for it but now am somewhat disappointed.
Just my 2cents.
They claim a MAX of 15 hp with a tune. That is WITH the spike from the torque converter. Before the spike where its level, its much less of a gain. It appears to be 9, maybe 10 hp gain. They also have bumpted the timing 7 degrees using an 87 octane "mixture." It should only be raised 4-5 at most. 7 is a little extreme. Rasing the timing is going to produce more power, but it doesnt seem safe to me on 87 octane. Doesnt even seem to give an adequate base for a dyno pull.
I cant justify an extra $100 for fudged numbers an 2hp gain on the C&L. I had high expectations for it but now am somewhat disappointed.
Just my 2cents.
There is absolutely nothing misleading about what is posted on the site, and if you are wanting someone to claim that you can get 20+ HP from an air intake mod on a 200 HP engine, then you will definitely have to look elsewhere. I thought that being totally honest about the results and the test procedure would be refreshing for most people, but it appears that people are so used to being misled by manufacturers that the end result is "dissapointment". Our system is the most expensive because it costs more to manufacture. The inlet pipe is 5 TIMES more expensive to produce in aluminum than if it were made using the same technique as K&N's inlet tube. I know this because our new "racer" intake for the GT's uses the same molding method as K&N's. Sometimes you really do get what you are paying for. In fact, I caught a lot of heat in our office about the price of the V6 system because my partner felt that I had priced it TOO LOW based upon how much it costs to make.
It is unfortunate that you would jump to conclusions or dismiss this product based upon the fact that the manufacturer was being up front and honest about preliminary test results. What was posted on the website was by no means the definitive test of what this product is capable of, but rather a preview of the system. I am sure that once people in the "real world" compare what we have to offer with others, our system will hold up quite nicely. I suggest that you go out and read the 2005 air intake shootout article in the new (January '06) issue of 5.0 magazine. In it, they managed to compare 11 different air intakes (even with the notable exclusion of several "big name" companies), and our original kit was rated the highest among all of the systems tested, even over the K&N unit. Our system made more power and was subjectively judged to be of higher quality, with superior fit and finish and ease of installation.
As of this very moment, we have not shipped a single V6 kit to a customer, but we are now ready to take orders. Doug at Bamachips will have an evaluation system within a day or two, and we will be prepared to start fufilling orders, probably by the end of the week. I am sure that Doug will deliver an honest and independent assesment of what you can expect from this intake and a good tune on a vehicle with decent fuel. I can assure you that no one else will ever release a competing air intake for this vehicle that will perform better than our kit when tuned to the same air/fuel ratio and timing level.
I have been cautiously optomistic about developing this system for the V6 model, and it frustrates me that our own honesty has effected public perception of the product before the first consumer gets their hands on the product for an independent evaluation. As our website states, your end result is only going to be as good as your starting point. There will never be an air intake and tune combo made for your vehicle that will give you "GT style" gains, regardless of who manufactures it, what material it is made from OR whatever "internet celebrity" endorses it.
We feel that honesty is the best policy. If you are not satisfied with the numbers that our system generates once it is in public use, then just remember that anyone who makes claims of better performance from their product IS misleading you...
Lee Bender
President, C&L Performance, Inc.
11/14/05, 11:00 PM
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Originally posted by LeeB99@November 14, 2005, 10:08 PM
Our system is the most expensive because it costs more to manufacture. The inlet pipe is 5 TIMES more expensive to produce in aluminum than if it were made using the same technique as K&N's inlet tube. I know this because our new "racer" intake for the GT's uses the same molding method as K&N's. Sometimes you really do get what you are paying for. In fact, I caught a lot of heat in our office about the price of the V6 system because my partner felt that I had priced it TOO LOW based upon how much it costs to make.
It is unfortunate that you would jump to conclusions or dismiss this product based upon the fact that the manufacturer was being up front and honest about preliminary test results. What was posted on the website was by no means the definitive test of what this product is capable of, but rather a preview of the system. I am sure that once people in the "real world" compare what we have to offer with others, our system will hold up quite nicely. I suggest that you go out and read the 2005 air intake shootout article in the new (January '06) issue of 5.0 magazine. In it, they managed to compare 11 different air intakes (even with the notable exclusion of several "big name" companies), and our original kit was rated the highest among all of the systems tested, even over the K&N unit. Our system made more power and was subjectively judged to be of higher quality, with superior fit and finish and ease of installation.
Our system is the most expensive because it costs more to manufacture. The inlet pipe is 5 TIMES more expensive to produce in aluminum than if it were made using the same technique as K&N's inlet tube. I know this because our new "racer" intake for the GT's uses the same molding method as K&N's. Sometimes you really do get what you are paying for. In fact, I caught a lot of heat in our office about the price of the V6 system because my partner felt that I had priced it TOO LOW based upon how much it costs to make.
It is unfortunate that you would jump to conclusions or dismiss this product based upon the fact that the manufacturer was being up front and honest about preliminary test results. What was posted on the website was by no means the definitive test of what this product is capable of, but rather a preview of the system. I am sure that once people in the "real world" compare what we have to offer with others, our system will hold up quite nicely. I suggest that you go out and read the 2005 air intake shootout article in the new (January '06) issue of 5.0 magazine. In it, they managed to compare 11 different air intakes (even with the notable exclusion of several "big name" companies), and our original kit was rated the highest among all of the systems tested, even over the K&N unit. Our system made more power and was subjectively judged to be of higher quality, with superior fit and finish and ease of installation.
In the above response you indicated that the C&L intake is the most expensive. It's not... The MRT (Street Smart Design) V-6 intake is approximately $50 more when sold by MRT and $165 more when sold by Street Smart Design. This is a direct comparison of intake prices and does not include the price of a tuner.
http://www.mrt-direct.com/2005/Pages/induction.php
http://www.ssd4u.com/streetsmart_140.htm
11/14/05, 11:33 PM
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All I attempted to do in that assessment was give a first impression of the information and numbers I was provided with. Look through my back posts. Ive been waiting on you guys to put out a system for a year now. By no means can you say I havent been both suportative and patient. I have no idea how many times Ive urged people "wait for C&L! dont buy a CAI yet, see what they produce!" Look up the odd 500 posts I have on this forum alone and see how many times I might have done it.
11/15/05, 12:13 AM
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Lee... wow... thanks for your post.
Doug emailed me back tonight... he has tunes for the C&L and thinks it's a great intake. The GT guys have been really happy with theirs. I have no doubt it's a great product.
Doug emailed me back tonight... he has tunes for the C&L and thinks it's a great intake. The GT guys have been really happy with theirs. I have no doubt it's a great product.
11/15/05, 08:00 AM
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Originally posted by Zodiac@November 15, 2005, 12:36 AM
All I attempted to do in that assessment was give a first impression of the information and numbers I was provided with. Look through my back posts. Ive been waiting on you guys to put out a system for a year now. By no means can you say I havent been both suportative and patient. I have no idea how many times Ive urged people "wait for C&L! dont buy a CAI yet, see what they produce!" Look up the odd 500 posts I have on this forum alone and see how many times I might have done it.
All I attempted to do in that assessment was give a first impression of the information and numbers I was provided with. Look through my back posts. Ive been waiting on you guys to put out a system for a year now. By no means can you say I havent been both suportative and patient. I have no idea how many times Ive urged people "wait for C&L! dont buy a CAI yet, see what they produce!" Look up the odd 500 posts I have on this forum alone and see how many times I might have done it.
No matter what intake you decide to purchase for this vehcicle, dyno test it. If the manufacturer made claims of better performance than our system, then you WILL be dissapointed with your results. I am not saying that our system makes substantially more power than any other kit, but I AM making a guarantee that no one else can sell an air intake that will outperform ours. Let Doug at Bamachips and others do their own independent evaluations and compare it to the testing of other systems. As is the case with the GT systems, you may find that "tuned" performance is similar between several different air intake options, even ones that are less expensive than ours. Some people will save a little money by purchasing a system that was made using lower cost materials, while others will choose our system because of it's quality and physical appearance. But anyone who believes that they can purchase a lower cost system AND receive a measurable improvement over what we have to offer is going to be dissapointed with their results (if they dyno test). There are lots of companies out there who bank on the fact that you won't test their product (and they do not post any dyno information for you to view), so they continue to make unrealistic performance claims. When they are (rarely) called on it, they will simply dismiss the results and you are likely to get an excuse like "performance may vary".
All that I ask is that you do not dismiss this new system before anyone uses it in the "real world". When we first announced our GT system nearly a year ago, there was another business that was selling a cone filter and a painted maf housing with the claim of "no tuning necessary". On one of the other message boards where he was promoting his product, someone asked him point-blank how his product compared to our upcoming system. At this point, he went on a rant and started making all kinds of crazy accusations about how your world would come to an end if you purchased our system. Since this person had moderator status on this board, he even deleted posts from others that refuted his claims. There is no telling how long it took for people to realize that this was simply a desparate attempt to snag as many sales as he could before we launched our system. Then along came yet another business who claimed that his air intake assembly made 22 MORE ft/lbs of torque and 12 MORE HP than our system. Although people with common sense realized that this was not probable, they all wanted to believe him, because they loved the idea/dream of getting 35-40 HP and 35-45 ft/lbs of torque from a $150 air intake and an SCT tune. As more and more people (and shops) tested the product, they found that it was at best a competitor to our product, and not conclusively better at producing power than our system. There is no telling how many people purchased these kits based on the "promise" of superior performance, however.
Let Doug and others report their impressions of the products available, and purchase the system that you feel best suits your personal needs. Just dont expect ANY air intake for the V6 Mustang to deliver what many would consider to be "big gains"...
Lee
11/15/05, 02:57 PM
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Great reading !!! I am new to the CAI world and have a few questions.
1- What, realisticlly, can be expected HP/Tourqe wise from a CAI on the V6?
2- Is a tune necessary or can you apply it later on...when you have the $$$ to purchase one?
3- It seems to me that the CAI's for the 05+ Mustangs seem alot more expensive than previous years. Is there a reason for this or is it just simply demand?
4- Finally, can anyone recommend a good place in the Victoria/Vancouver area ?
Thanks for all the info !!!!
1- What, realisticlly, can be expected HP/Tourqe wise from a CAI on the V6?
2- Is a tune necessary or can you apply it later on...when you have the $$$ to purchase one?
3- It seems to me that the CAI's for the 05+ Mustangs seem alot more expensive than previous years. Is there a reason for this or is it just simply demand?
4- Finally, can anyone recommend a good place in the Victoria/Vancouver area ?
Thanks for all the info !!!!
11/16/05, 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by LeeB99@November 14, 2005, 9:08 PM
As of this very moment, we have not shipped a single V6 kit to a customer, but we are now ready to take orders. Doug at Bamachips will have an evaluation system within a day or two, and we will be prepared to start fufilling orders, probably by the end of the week. I am sure that Doug will deliver an honest and independent assesment of what you can expect from this intake and a good tune on a vehicle with decent fuel. I can assure you that no one else will ever release a competing air intake for this vehicle that will perform better than our kit when tuned to the same air/fuel ratio and timing level.
Lee Bender
President, C&L Performance, Inc.
As of this very moment, we have not shipped a single V6 kit to a customer, but we are now ready to take orders. Doug at Bamachips will have an evaluation system within a day or two, and we will be prepared to start fufilling orders, probably by the end of the week. I am sure that Doug will deliver an honest and independent assesment of what you can expect from this intake and a good tune on a vehicle with decent fuel. I can assure you that no one else will ever release a competing air intake for this vehicle that will perform better than our kit when tuned to the same air/fuel ratio and timing level.
Lee Bender
President, C&L Performance, Inc.
I was told on the phone that the first units will ship out next week. This is also C&L's first intake produced for any V6.
After 10 months of sifting through these various boards, weighing all the pros and cons of the different intake/tuner combos, I'm finally gettin' mine! Yeah!
11/17/05, 07:40 PM
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Great reading !!! I am new to the CAI world and have a few questions.
1- What, realisticlly, can be expected HP/Tourqe wise from a CAI on the V6?
2- Is a tune necessary or can you apply it later on...when you have the $$$ to purchase one?
3- It seems to me that the CAI's for the 05+ Mustangs seem alot more expensive than previous years. Is there a reason for this or is it just simply demand?
4- Finally, can anyone recommend a good place in the Victoria/Vancouver area ?
Thanks for all the info !!!!
1- What, realisticlly, can be expected HP/Tourqe wise from a CAI on the V6?
2- Is a tune necessary or can you apply it later on...when you have the $$$ to purchase one?
3- It seems to me that the CAI's for the 05+ Mustangs seem alot more expensive than previous years. Is there a reason for this or is it just simply demand?
4- Finally, can anyone recommend a good place in the Victoria/Vancouver area ?
Thanks for all the info !!!!
2. Tune isnt necessary with every kit, but definately recommended for all kits.
3. They are more expensive because they are new, and on a brand new car (the car is "all new"). The intake for my 03 cobra was well over 200 when it came out, now i can get it for $130
4. no
lol im far away
11/17/05, 07:41 PM
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Congrats hamidlmt, definately let us know how it goes. See if ya can do some before/after comparison. Like a dyno, or track, or something. I didnt do it on a dyno, but with same weather conditions i cut very close 60' times and there was a .17 difference in my quarter mile time before/after intake.
11/17/05, 09:20 PM
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Hey guys,
Please calm down about all of this. First off the spike is something that EVERY automatic Mustang, GT or V6, does in stock form. It is the converter locking and unlocking. I've had my own personal car do this until last week when I finally figured out how to stop it.
Now with that said I would like to let you know that I have the Prototype C&L in route, it will be here tomorrow. Now as soon as I here something back from Zodiac I'll have some tuning files for everyone. I'd love to do it this weekend but I understand the notice I'm giving him is very short so maybe next weekend is more obtainable. I am going to attempt to rent one of these vehicles Saturday but there's no guaruntee there as my local Hertz sucks.
Either way I'll have the kit tomorrow and some tuning information soon after, I'll keep everyone posted.
As for heat issues, if the air were staying in the pipe for extended lenghts of time I may say yes but the airflow through the pipe is so fast that heat soak isn't even something to consider.
Thanks, Doug.
Please calm down about all of this. First off the spike is something that EVERY automatic Mustang, GT or V6, does in stock form. It is the converter locking and unlocking. I've had my own personal car do this until last week when I finally figured out how to stop it.
Now with that said I would like to let you know that I have the Prototype C&L in route, it will be here tomorrow. Now as soon as I here something back from Zodiac I'll have some tuning files for everyone. I'd love to do it this weekend but I understand the notice I'm giving him is very short so maybe next weekend is more obtainable. I am going to attempt to rent one of these vehicles Saturday but there's no guaruntee there as my local Hertz sucks.
Either way I'll have the kit tomorrow and some tuning information soon after, I'll keep everyone posted.
As for heat issues, if the air were staying in the pipe for extended lenghts of time I may say yes but the airflow through the pipe is so fast that heat soak isn't even something to consider.
Thanks, Doug.
11/17/05, 09:30 PM
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Doug... filled out your order form online yesterday for an X-cal II... guess you still need to complete the tunes. I've got the C&L on the way, as soon as the production units ship. Really looking forward to your tune!
11/18/05, 12:02 AM
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Originally posted by ManEHawke@November 17, 2005, 9:30 PM
Hey Hamid, I am in the same state as you are.
I just placed my order for the SCT2 yesterday, and just right now for the C&L. I can't wait
Hey Hamid, I am in the same state as you are.
I just placed my order for the SCT2 yesterday, and just right now for the C&L. I can't wait
11/18/05, 07:12 PM
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Doug, i know all the auto's do that in stock form, that wasnt what i was pointing out. I was just pointing out the spikes came at different rpm's on the graph, sot he straight line they drew for a comparison mark wasnt exactly accurate because it crossed the stock dyno line bfeore the spike, and their dyno line durin the climb of the spike thats all.
11/18/05, 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by Fazm@November 18, 2005, 8:15 PM
Doug, i know all the auto's do that in stock form, that wasnt what i was pointing out. I was just pointing out the spikes came at different rpm's on the graph, sot he straight line they drew for a comparison mark wasnt exactly accurate because it crossed the stock dyno line bfeore the spike, and their dyno line durin the climb of the spike thats all.
Doug, i know all the auto's do that in stock form, that wasnt what i was pointing out. I was just pointing out the spikes came at different rpm's on the graph, sot he straight line they drew for a comparison mark wasnt exactly accurate because it crossed the stock dyno line bfeore the spike, and their dyno line durin the climb of the spike thats all.
Not a problem, we'll find out some SCT tuned results tomorrow on the dyno using 93 and the new kit. I will say that just looking at it it is a very nice peice and you wont go wrong if you are looking for nothing more then eye candy but I can guaruntee with it using the same size MAF as the GT kit, 83mm, it will definatly move some air and make for some great new power.
Later Doug.
11/18/05, 10:51 PM
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I just ordered the package deal from RPM outlet with an AFE cold air intake and the Predator tuner for $459 with free shipping. That seemed like a fair price to me for 12 rwhp and I like the look of the whole setup.
This will be the first performance mod to my car, but I had to do something to get rid of the torque limit on takeoff. That was starting to bother me.
This will be the first performance mod to my car, but I had to do something to get rid of the torque limit on takeoff. That was starting to bother me.
11/19/05, 07:02 AM
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Originally posted by the cable guy@November 18, 2005, 11:54 PM
I just ordered the package deal from RPM outlet with an AFE cold air intake and the Predator tuner for $459 with free shipping. That seemed like a fair price to me for 12 rwhp and I like the look of the whole setup.
This will be the first performance mod to my car, but I had to do something to get rid of the torque limit on takeoff. That was starting to bother me.
I just ordered the package deal from RPM outlet with an AFE cold air intake and the Predator tuner for $459 with free shipping. That seemed like a fair price to me for 12 rwhp and I like the look of the whole setup.
This will be the first performance mod to my car, but I had to do something to get rid of the torque limit on takeoff. That was starting to bother me.
From what I hear the Predator's are having issues with that. SCT doesn't but good luck!