Doug@C&L

Hey guys,

Well after some time last night we were able to get the C&L kit on the new automatic V6 with absolutly no mods and a 89/93 tune.

We did a base line run after the car had cooled off for about 2 hours and we made 171 rwhp and 203 rwtq.

Next we started using the 93 tune and it didn't respond as greatly as I had hoped but after doing some datalogging I figured that he may have not had good mix of 93 in it as I was barely able to run 23-25 degree's of timing, to compare I was able to run 29-32 on the manual V6 I did the weekend before. The top end numbers weren't that great, probably because of knock sensor activation, but the overall numbers across the board were....

173 rwhp and 207 rwtq

3500 rpms 5 rwhp 5 rwtq
4000 rpms 8 rwhp 6 rwtq
4500 rpms 8 rwhp 5 rwtq (knock sensor had to be reducing timing)
5000 rpms 5 rwhp 4 rwtq (same)


After doing some tuning and some runs we finally let the engine cool down and we ran it with the C&L tune and made 179 rwhp and 215 rwtq and the gains across the board were excellent. I lowered the timing down to around 20-22 and got these numbers so with lower timing and improved numbers there was too much timing in the 93 program. I've broken them down in 500 rpm increaments to further show the gains.

179 rwhp and 215 rwtq

3500 rpms 8 rwhp 11 rwtq
4000 rpms 10 rwhp 13 rwtq
4500 rpms 12 rwhp 14 rwtq
5000 rpms 9 rwhp 10 rwtq
5250 rpms 6 rwhp and 6rwtq

This shows that top end numbers aren't everything as the gains from 4000-5000 are excellent. Not to mention with him having the tune his throttle lag was reduced and overall driving was improved greatly.

Also showing that these engines in stock form are dead above 5200 rpm's. If he had exhaust it may have extended the range by a 100 rpm's or so...

If it hadn't been so late we might have stuck around a bit more to try and get some more out of it. I think we may have been able to get another 5 rwhp or so with a bit leaner fuel mixture, it was at 12.4-12.7 ish. but the dyno operator had been there since 8am and it was 8:15pm at the last run. He had ran 23 cars through there already.

I have some more stuff to come soon for the V6 and I'll be sure to post when I do...

Thanks, Doug.

The reason the graph is kinda choppy is he was loosing the RPM signal,he thinks his tach clamp maybe going south. The numbers are still accurate as they are still well within a normal path.

manystangs

Thanks Doug, nice write up! I always like these tests you do.
Michael

hamidlmt

The gains are fairly consistent with C&L's write-up with their Diablo tune, give or take a couple hp.

[you will find that the improvements are no less than 10 rear wheel horsepower, with a typical gain of around 12 and a peak improvement of around 15.]

Doug... thanks for all of your work. No other tuner takes this sort of thorough time to communicate this stuff to us. These are great reviews of the process and are very much appreciated.

05V6

Doug with your tune in it, the throttle lag was gone. The car jumped when lightly touching the throttle. Your tune made the car feel like a completly different car.I would have liked to have had the time to take it for a road test with your tune and the C&L on it ( of course keeping a sharp out for Johnny Law ...LOL). I was impressed with the C&L, the kit installs in a snap and the numbers we got with your tune and a simple bolt on are very impressive. The automatic deffinitely takes some HP to turn it, the C&L and your tune provided a nice HP increase that automatic owners can deffinitely use.

05BlackVert

Doug,

Just curious, what kind of gains did you see with the manual car?

I haven't been able to find any numbers with the manual transmission yet.

Thanks.

hamidlmt

There's a thread a few lines down about the manual. Really good numbers, but the car had some exhaust work on it.

http://forums.bradbarnett.net/index.php?showtopic=39240

Doug@C&L

Sorry guys,

I don't know what happened but I had attached the original dyno sheet to the first post but it didn't show. I edited it and added it now.

You truly need to review it to see the gains.

Thanks!! Doug.

MSP

Hey Doug, so with the Automatics, the drivetrain loss to run the Auto tranny is to great for a tune to overcome and transfer the power to the rear wheels?

Basically what I mean is that the amount of power you can get through a good tune, is pretty much eaten up by the Auto tranny, and the amount it needs to run? Not sure how to correctly say this..

But lets say if you had a SC installed.. The amount of overall power this would add to the car is 130HP, lets say...

While a good tune is more on the range of 35HP.. So taking lets say 30% from 35HP will leave us wiith an actual 24.5HP..

But actually looking at the numbers like this, it would appear this is still way to much to expect with just a tune for the auto tranny...

It is obvious something else in the system must be negating the gains you receive through a tune for the auto... Is there something in the program which is limiting a power gain? Or some type of fail-safe that must be overridden?

I am just not understanding why the Auto tranny's cant enjoy a robust tune like the manuals... Help me understand somebody..

MSP

Now why this is strange to me, is because I thought you could manually shift the auto tranny's as if they were a manual.. I thought this is where this new trans shined.. I remember when I test drove an Auto tranny 05v6, I was really impressed.. When I shifted it, I shifted the car manually... I set it to first, taced out where I wanted and shifted... I thought it felt really good, and even spun the tires like this...

How are you guys driving the car? By just leaving it in drive? In my old E55 Mercedes Benz, I used to manually shift the car.. The Mercedes have almost the same concept as the new Mustang Auto Tranny's.. When you want the car to perform in sport mode, you must shift it manually.. When you want it to ride smooth, leave it in drive..

Doug904, have you tried to dyno the car by manually shifting it? I bet it would bring the numbers up quite abit...???

hamidlmt

MSP... I usually leave my auto in drive, sometimes turning off overdrive. Every now and then I'll downshift manually. I'll have to try accelerating manually to see if that helps.

05V6

The car was manually shifted through the gears. I would think the loss of Hp through the auto would be linear across the board no matter how much HP you threw at it. With the tune and the C&L it still showed about an 8 Hp increase. The Hp gains at about 4000 rpm was around 10 Hp/ and almost 14 lb/ft. As far as I'm concerned there was no way to come close to the HP gains of a manual, and remember this car is stock. While not as impressive as the manual as far as HP increase is concerned, auto owners will FEEL the increase and like it. Check out this article it's good reading http://www.superstang.com/horsepower.htm

Doug@C&L

Like said above the driveline loss for any automatic is more then that of a manual. Most of the time I use the formula of 25% for an auto and 15% for a manual. The reason for this is the automatic has so many fluid couplings and clutch packs so that it can shift both smoothly and consistantly. Also there's is the Torque converter which is nothing more then a alot of fan blades turning in oil, well that's a VERY moderate way to put it but easier for you to get the picture.

A manual only has one slipping point, the clutch. Other then this is a straight through link to the rear end. This is why dyno runs are done in the 1:1 gear on each vehicle as the others multiply torque in order to get the power to the ground.

So taking the 179hp and 215 tq x 1.25 = 223 hp 268 Tq at the flywheel.

It's something you live with owning an auto but even though I wouldn't give mine up in traffic for nothing!

Thanks, Doug

hamidlmt

Traffic is getting worse and worse in Portland, Oregon... I'm so glad I got my auto!

I wonder what sort of mods it would take to get the auto up to 200 rwhp...any thoughts?

Doug@C&L

Well let's take this a step a time...

C&L and BamaChips X-2 = 180rwhp and 215 rwtq
H-pipe and Mufflers = 185-195 rwhp and 225-235 rwtq
UnderDrive pulley = 200-210 rwhp and 235-245 rwtq


That would be my combo for getting there with an auto. Now you could also add in some JBA headers for good measure but not absolutly necessary.

later Doug.

PS. The underdrive is still about 2 weeks out, they are being balanced and plated. I'm in touch with them about it and will glady keep everyone posted.

hamidlmt

hmm... I've got headers already and I can replace my y-pipe with an h... got the C&L and SCT on the way.... pulleys could be next!

scrming

silly question... is this going to be a underdrive crank pulley? can you guesstimate $$$?

thanks!

MSP

Hey thats pretty good stuff there Doug E. Doug!! Nice discription!

I will admit, there are times when I am driving, having a smoke in one hand, and coffee in the other, and the cell phone rings, I think of the Automatics..

Doug@C&L

Thinking around $200 or less, yes I know it's alot but it the entire crankshaft harmonic balancer. Funny, I used to have one when they came out the first time in 94' on my OHV ranger, things are coming full circle.

Thanks, Doug.

scrming

Sounds like a good deal! If you're starting a list I would definitely be interested.. hehhehe...


How would this work, say if you already have replaced the alternator pulley? Now keep in mind that I have the 4.10 gears so I'm cruising at a higher RPM than normal..... so PS and Water are spinning slightly slower while alternator is spinning quite a bit slower but engine is cruising at higher RPM.... thoughts?

rygenstormlocke

I'm keen to get the answer here as well, as I am in the same boat with 4.10's and an auto.