the expert over here

 

Well I have been running the Meziere electric water pump for 2 years and 7 months on my DD stang. I have 22,500 miles on the car and the original altenator. I have never had 1 second problem with it. I know several other in my area that have them and still no issues. Whether it is worth the cost for the few ponies is up to the individual to decide. I put mine in at the same time I did my Steeda UD pullies and thought the combo was easy to feel the improvement. Just my experience. I must also add that I run my headlights and fog lights both day and night for safety reasons. So I would like I am putting even a bigger load on my alternator and it still hanging in there. Beats me.
Scott

 

Ok. Explain to me how this works. At a given flow rate, the water pump will require some amount of power to turn it. In a stock car, that power is taken directly from the crank shaft and transfered to the water pump by the drive belt. There is some loss in power to the drive belt (in the form of heat) due to friction.

With the electric water pump, it too will require about the same amount of power to generate the given flow rate. But it gets it's power from the alternator (or battery which is charged by the alternating depending on how you want to look at it).

So, we first have to generate the electricity in the alternator, which has two sources of power loss:

1. Electrical efficiency is NOT 100%. Probably closer to 85% at best.
2. The alternator is powered by the crankshaft via that belt drive. Same basic losses powering the alternator as it has powering the water pump.

Next, we have to transmit that electrical power from the alternator (or battery) to the electric water pump. Guess what? Wire has resistance, which means there is a power loss which is I^2 * R. The bigger wire the better, but there will always be a power loss. and 15^2 is a fairly big number to start with...

Finally, we get our power to the electric motor. Unfortunately, that motor is ALSO not 100% efficient. Maybe 85% if it is a VERY good motor. I doubt it, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

So, for belt driven we have Power = Water Pump Draw / Belt efficiencies (say 0.85 or 85%).

For electric, we have Power = Water Pump Draw / (Belt efficiency (0.85) * Alternator efficiency (0.85) * Transmission Losses (0.98) * Pump Motor efficiency (0.85)).

The result?

1. Belt drive power = 118% of Water pump draw
2. Electric drive power = 166% of Water pump draw

This is all a VERY long winded way of saying the ONLY way that electric pump is putting less of a load on your engine is IF it is moving a LOT less water through your engine. And, you will ALWAYS be able to move the same amount of water with the belt drive with less load on your engine than with an electric water pump.

You might be able to make the argument that the belt drive pump is moving too much water at higher engine speeds (which takes more power than moving less water) so the electric pump is more efficient because it only moves what is needed. But I haven't seen any tests showing what the optimum flow rate is for our engines.

And of course, in drag racing where you can remove the alternator for the run, then an electric alternator will provide more power to the wheels. But 99.99% of all these cars are not dedicated drag cars...

 

Okay I have to admit that last post was way over my head but here is what I believe I know about the difference between the stock waterpump and the Meziere electric pump. It seems simple to a simple minded person like me. The stock waterpump uses up different amounts of energy depending on what rpm it is running. Right? Less at 750 rpm than at 6000 rpm at WOT. Right? The Meziere pump uses the same amount regardless of RPM. Right? It runs the same RPM regardless of engine RPM. Right? I believe this mod is worth some extra ponies but only in the higher RPM's Right? My experience has been very positive for over 2 1/2 years. I believe the whole "killing your alternator" theme is But that is just my opinion.
Scott

 

I was seriously thinking about doing this mod but after careful consideration, I realized that this was not worth it.

A lot of people think that they are freeing up tons of HP which simply ain't true.

I'm sticking with the stocker. It's simple, reliable, free, and works !!!

 

My alternator died every 20k miles, so I'd say you're due

 

Scott,

Agreed. I was mainly attacking the argument that the electric pump is somehow more "efficient" than the belt drive pump (it is not). But obviously, if you spin the pump slower, it will take less power to run it, but that doesn't make it less efficient, just less powerful.

The other argument I have against electric pumps is reliability. It is VERY hard to beat the basic reliability of the stock belt driven water pump. With an electric pump, you just have a lot more to fail.

If you car is a race car or a weekend car, these trade-offs are probably fine. I just wouldn't be willing to make these trade-offs on a daily driven car (such as mine. I have 42k miles on it in 3 years).

On the other hand, I am glad you have been successful with your electric water pump.

 

I still don't have near the miles/time on my Mez pump as some others but here a few more points I'd like to make. I am also one of the lucky few who can leave my car sit unstarted for 4 months through a harsh Illinois winter with the battery connected (no trickle charger) and have my car start right up with no battery issues.

With the e-H2O, you do get a constant flow rate at all engine RPMs (55gpm). So at idle (700 to 900 rmps) you are still getting maximum coolant flow. Great for those hot sticky summer days when you are maxing out your AC in bumper to bumper rush hour and construction traffic. As you increase your RPMs, there is no additional drag to turn the pump any faster, meaning the RPMs will react quicker to throttle inputs.

I think the target for the stock belt driven pump is also 55 gpm at highway speeds (55 to 75mph??) so figuring 4th or 5th gear (overdrive) on the highway, that is what, between 1800 and 2700 rpms. So as you push higher in the RPM range for spirited runs (these cars redline at 6200 stock, right?) you are trying to turn the belt driven pump much faster than necessary which equals higher rates of drag. If anyone knows better numbers for this, please post up. You actually don't want the pump turning too much faster as it does not allow the coolant enough contact time with the hot internals to draw off the heat and dump it out the radiator fins.

At upper RPMs with the belt driven pump, it gets harder to turn the pump even faster so not only does the drag increase but the % of drag (power loss) increases. I won't say it is a purely exponential increase in drag but anyone who was able to follow RRRoamer's post should be able to get the picture . Belt driven water pumps eventually fail as well.

Lastly, there are tons of folks out there with battery and alternator problems in S197 Mustangs who have not installed an e-H2O pump, or any other modifications for that matter.

So unless someone had 40K on their car with no issues, then installed an e-H2O pump (and no other changes) and then started having problems at 60K and every 20K after that, I reject the notion that the e-H2O pump is source of the problem. Even in this scenario, 40 to 60 K could just be age/wear starting to rear it's ugly head. Could the e-H2O be a contributing factor to another existing problem? Sure, it could be.

Is the eH2O pump for everyone, maybe not. But neither are headers (too loud for some and they can eventually leak), stiff lowering springs, "dubs", 4000 watt stereos, solid motor mounts, tight short throw shifters, ground hugging body kits, video monitors in the trunk or any of the other miriad of things we throw at these cars as part of the Mustang hobby.

To each his own

 

I want to go back and answer the original question posed in the thread. " What will the Meziere electric pump help with"? No one really answered this fellas question. Did we? I also know this pump is not for everyone. I had a goal with this car to do all the mods I could to untap or free up all the HP I could. The Steeda UD pullies and water pump gave me a good pickup (Maybe 15-18 rwhp) with the combo. So that is my answer to the original questions asked. If and when this pump kicks the bucket I will let everyone know for sure. And if my alternator frys tomorrow I will also fess up to that. But up to today I believe it's a good combo.
Scott

 

I'm with Scott on this one... Granted, mine is no longer a daily-driver, but usually comes out for cruising, strip and track events, but there are some benefits to the electric pump that you don't see with the mechanical-drive pump. First, it's a constant-speed unit, which means you have constant circulation at low engine RPMs. My water temp gauge is mounted in the block, above the rear freeze plug on the driver's side, and under normal cruising conditions, reads between 165-180, with a stock radiator and thermostat. on 4/26-27, I drove from Chicago to St. Louis and ran a couple of days at Gateway International in the "roval" configuration, and even with the engine constantly above 3500RPM (usually close to redline or tickling the limiter) for 20 minutes at a shot, the highest temp I saw was 208 (gauge has recall), with distilled water, water-wetter, and about 15% antifreeze. Last August, running at Autobahn, I managed to peg the stock temp gauge with the stock pump. I think that with the constant high-RPM usage, the stock pump cavitates and thus loses pumping volume.

When I go to the drag strip, I have a circuit I worked up that triggers the pump and the low-speed fan for 3 minutes with the key off, and that right there is good for dropping the water temps around 20 degrees. This is invaluable when you're hot-lapping.

By way of disclaimer, however, I will admit that the stock pump and a set of ball-end hex keys are part of my regular pack list for race day.

 

Electric water pump. The ONLY thing it would good for is to cool your engine between rounds at the drag strip. Otherwise it is LESS efficient than the stock water pump.
Any time energy is converted to another form there is loss. So in the case of the electric water pump here is what happens.
Mechanical energy is converted to electrical energy by the alternator, then back to mechanical energy by the water pump. Then the Meziere water pump still has a pulley that just idles along and does NOTHING except waste even more energy.
As I indicated before, for someone who spends a lot of time at the track it has some value. Otherwise I think you'd actually see a power loss because of all the wasted energy. Sure the most (not all because of the stupid idler pulley) of the load of the water pump is gone and MOVED to the alternator. This product makes no sense at all.

 

Well my dyno at the time I did the pullies and pump says your wrong. Clearly were worth 15-18 HP together. I have had my car on the dyno 4 different times through the progression of my mods. Started at 258 and now 315.
Scott

 

That's not quite how the deal works. In a linear circuit (mechanical converted to electrical converted back to mechanical) you would certainly see a loss of efficiency, however, we are not working with a linear circuit. In our case, mechanical energy is converted to electrical energy, but only to recharge a reservoir (the battery), and the alternator reaches sufficient speed for full output (140-200A, depending on the model) at around 1400 engine RPM. With underdrive pullies, this moves up to around 1750RPM or so. Given that a lot of people that do this kind of stuff also run a taller rear end gear, that shifts the normal operating RPM of the engine upwards. At idle, the alternator is still approximately 50% efficient, which means it has the generating potential of 70-100A. Now, back to the battery; at all engine speeds, the pump imposes approximately a 15A load on the reservoir, but the increased alternator load on the engine is still fairly minimal. Yes, it is higher that without the load, but for the sake of argument, let's assume that it takes an additional 2HP to drive over the normal load to generate that 15A. As I'm sure you know, there are essentially no frictional losses in an alternator (only front and rear shaft bearings), it's just a stator shaft rotating inside of a field coil, and all the drag is magnetic in nature. So, we have a net 2HP loss to the pump. Now, we look at the water pump itself. The mechanical variant has slightly more frictional losses, between the shaft bearing and the seal, but the killer is the resistance of the coolant against the impeller. This resistance is the reason that the electric water pump pulls 15A or so. If you meter it out of the water jacket, it only pulls about 4A. As the engine speed increases, so does the flow-rate of the coolant (mechanical drive) and thus the drag against the engine. This is the same situation seen with a roots or twin-screw supercharger. The faster you spin it, the more power it sucks from the engine just to keep moving (against the increased air density in the compressor stage), but we all know that supercharging has a net power increase...

From multiple end-users, we can see dyno gains of around 20HP or so with the combination of under-drive pullies and electric pump, and since the pulley set itself is only good for 5-7HP, that means the pump net gain in engine output is around 13HP or more. Why do you think we no longer have mechanical fans for engine cooling? It's NOT because mechanical drive of the fan is more efficient than electrical... The reason that we don't see electric superchargers, power steering pumps or AC compressors, is that there is a break point where the operating pressures are high enough to stall the electric motor unless a monster motor is used, and then weight, packaging, and efficiency come into play, but the water pump and cooling fan are not being tasked with creating 1200PSI line pressure for the steering rack...

In the end, the electric water pump works, and works well to free up some parasitic losses, but in the grand scheme of things, is not a mod for everyone. If you don't want to do it, that's absolutely fine, but the mod does work, and for those trying to suck every HP out of the engine they can in NA trim, it is a valid piece.

 

That is very good explanation. Thank you for that. Your explanation makes perfect sense to me. I just wasn't about accept the possibility that this electric water pump was going to do any good when on the surface it just didn't make any sense.
I would like to add something regarding electric fans. A primary reason electric fans are more efficient is because any time a car is moving faster than approx 30 mph a fan is not required. An electric fan only operates when it is needed where a mechanical fan, even the clutch types are using some power at all times.
At any rate, in light of this new information I may consider an electric pump now that I can see the benefit.

 

I wasn't planning on wading into this thread again, but...

First, I have to issue with your "5-7HP" statement for UDs. That doesn't jive with assorted posts I have seen here over the last three years.

Plus, at 14.4V and 15A, the absolute MAX amount of power you could get would be 216 watts or slightly more than 1/4 HP. Now, you are trying to tell me that the stock water pump needs 13 HP to turn it, but the electric water pump can keep the engine cool with 1/50th the power???? I call BS. There is NO WAY IN HECK that the vehicle designers would design the stock water pump SO poorly that an aftermarket part could do the same job with 2% of the energy input!!! The stock water pump doesn't draw nearly that much power.

Electric fans are NOT as efficient as mechanical fans. For a given power drain on your engine, they will move LESS air than a mechanical fan. Period. You don't get a round the laws of physics.

Of course, why DO new cars come with electric fans instead of mechanical fans if they are less efficient? Well, here are some reason:

• Supplemental fan cooling is only needed under certain conditions, such as low vehicle speed, high engine temperatures, etc.
• Mechanical thermostatic fan clutches are both very heavy and very expensive. Electric is just cheaper and lighter if you want to only power the fan at certain times.
• Packaging: with a mechanical fan, you have to have the radiator sitting right in front of the end of the crank shaft and the radiator has to be standing pretty much vertical (you can lay it over some if you are willing to use a very large fan shroud)
• Packaging: Electric fans can be packed into places a mechanical fan simply won't fit. This works much better with things like front wheel drive cars, lay down radiators, etc.
• Once the engine stops, a mechanical fan does nothing. With an electric fan, you can have the cooling fan running AFTER the engine has stopped running to continue cooling things down. This is one advantage that is shared with electric water pumps as well.

You also left out cost. Once you get much above 1/2 HP on 12V systems, it gets REAL costly to provide that power. With power steering pumps, there is a lot of work in that area right now. But the big driver isn't efficiency, it's driving dynamics (there are things you can do with an electric, and therefore electronic steering rack that you just can't do with a hydraulic one). One of the biggest holdups?

Safety.

The electric version just are not as reliable as the mechanical ones. Strange how when you add MORE parts to a system the base reliability goes DOWN.

Oh, and 70MACH1OWNER is correct. Most of the posts in this thread (including ALL of mine!) did not actually address the question asked.

 

Well I think we did answer the question but it got lost in all of the banter about whether it was worth it or not...

To summarize, the benefits of the e-H2O:

constant coolant flow at all engine speeds including low idle like when sitting in traffic or in track staging lanes when cooling is necessary to cool down a hot engine from recent higher RPMs

constant coolant flow at upper RPMs to prevent the excess mechanical drag caused by increased liquid dynamics and potential cavitation within the water pump

lower mechanical drag on the engine, especially when accelerating, means snappier throttle response and an increase HP and TQ that has the potential increase infurthe as enging speeds go up compared to an engine with a mechanical water pump because there is no upper RPM cavitation with the e-H2O

It can be wired so that is can be activated when the engine is not running to aid in cooling the engine down. A definite plus for any racing. And if used with an automatic timer, not too shabby of an idea for a daily driver as well.

Given that the stock pump is desinged for 55gpm at highway speeds (assuming this design by Ford is for maximum cooling efficiency??) and the Mez e-H2O puts out a constant 55gpm, the e-H2O gives you maximum cooling efficiency at all engine speeds, not just open road highway speeds (1800 to 2700 rpm average)

Now, have we all beaten this topic to death yet?

 

Now, have we all beaten this topic to death yet?[/quote]



Well said...and yes we have beat this mod to death. At least verbally. But you know what I think is interesting about this thread? A number of guys are bad mouthing this mod but they don't have it. One guy is down on it because he blames it for his alternator problems. Again I got to say...And at least three of us that really own this mod and run it every time we start our cars are very positive about it. So I would only ask anyone thinking about this mod to wade thru all of the unfounded and nasty remarks about the Meziere waterpump mod by people that have absolutely no experience with this mod to give it a second look. And I invite PM's about my positive experience.
Scott

 

I think we can all dispense with the "calling BS" deal on each other... I don't have before/after dyno graphs of just the UDP, and eH2O mods individually, so I can't post personal proof of the power gains (or lack thereof), however, a simple test is to just pull the belt off the car, and by hand, spin the alternator and the water pump pulleys. You'll notice considerably more effort is required to spin the pump. As for the relative efficiencies of using a power-take-off system (belt, chain or shaft drive) versus an electric drive, probably the most obvious seen in daily use is that of the locomotive. The locomotive uses driven wheels to move the train, but the trucks are NOT driven by any sort of power-take-off system, they are electric. The whole train car is just a giant diesel-electric generator, with the electrical current generated being used to spin motors, which in turn spin the axles. If the losses incurred by the load on the generator were so horrific, then the design would be more efficient using some sort of power-take-off, but it's not. The electric-drive system is a more efficient design. If you do a search at Summitracing.com, you'll find electric water pumps and systems from: CSR, Summit house brand, Mezeire, Dedenbaer, Proform, Moroso, Mr. Gasket, Weiand, March Performance and Powermaster. Applications are for AMC/Jeep, FoMoCo, GM, and Mopar (domestic) as well as Acura, Honda, Jensen, Land Rover, Nissan, and Toyota (imports). There are just too many players with too many applications in diverse areas for this to be "snake oil" like intake turbulators, exhaust spinners, or Slick50. I have an electric pump, I use an electric pump, but I also say that this may not be a perfect mod for a daily-driver. There are too many failure points compared to the long-term dependability of a mechanically driven pump. I would also say that if you have an electric pump, but no aftermarket temp gauge, you're nuts... for a "toy" car, or a racer, this mod makes sense, but I would hesitate if this was the only transportation available. If the car is twin-screwed, however, I would consider this a mandatory mod. With all the bent tensioners and shredded belts, that would also take out the stock pump. At least with the Mezeire, you can run the car to someplace safe without worrying about cooking the block.

 

I would love too, but then you say something like this:

Do you have ANY idea how an alternator works? The ONLY way to measure it's load is to dyno it with the alternator powered up and UNDER load. Otherwise, all you are doing is spinning a chunk of metal on a shaft supported by bearings. And yes, that is easy to do!

The load on the alternator comes from the magnetic flux that is used to generate power. If you are not generating power, then the only load you have is pure friction in the bearings (and technically the air friction around the rotor)

Anyway...

Moto250 summed it up nicely. There are pros and there are cons to electric water pumps. Decide which out weights the other for your application and have fun!

 

RRRoamer,

You are absolutely right, my comment was NOT overly clear... The "spin by hand" was in an attempt to demonstrate frictional losses, not anything else. If you read my other posts in this thread, you will have noticed repeated references to magnetic flux and increased horsepower losses due to draw. Anybody that has ever run a lift-gate on a truck knows how the alternator loads up the engine when the gate compressor is running. I apologize for lack of clarity on that point.

With respect to your position that the electric pump is roughly a 1/4HP device, I will agree that sounds about right. I think the bulk of the additional losses from the stock pump come from bearing and seal friction, in combination with flow resistance at higher RPM. The pulley on the electric pump is a simple free-wheel, and imparts almost no load to the engine. There is ample proof that the electric setup does free up HP, so something in your logic chain is obviously incorrect.

One thought that I did have, is that the field coil is actually controlled by the PCM, and not a stand-alone regulator. I would say that it's distinctly possible that at higher RPMs, the PCM is commanding a lower charge-rate, thus reducing the magnetic drag effect on the engine. Thus, the pump is actually drawing down on the battery during WOT or near-WOT conditions, but as the RPMs and engine load drops, the PCM commands a higher charge-rate, replenishing the battery. I don't know for a fact that this is what the PCM is doing, but it is well within the realm of possibility. We've already seen a LOT of PCM-based electronic trickery to get higher fuel efficiency, lower emissions, and more HP from this platform, so I could easily see this as another part of that overall strategy.

In short, an electric water pump does increase horsepower measurably and repeatably, therefore there is a net efficiency gain in the system. Exactly how that happens is open for debate, but the result is not.

Oh, and you were worried about wire-loss earlier? The resistance of 10ga multi-stranded wire works out to be approximately 1.2 ohms per 1000', or .0012 ohms per foot. Given the average 6' of cable for an electric pump installation, the net wire resistance is 0.0072 ohms. With a circuit voltage of 14.2V, and a circuit draw of 15A, the wire would dissipate approximately 1.62 watts. Not enough to worry about.

The electronic steering control you referenced earlier, do you have any links for info? I am going to ASSUME that you're talking about electronically controlled assist levels, where there is higher assist at lower road-speeds (one-finger wheel turning for parking) and lower-assist at higher road-speeds (higher effort with more feedback). That can be done quite easily with electronically controlled valving in the rack, but does not necessarily imply electric fluid pressure generation. Our 5R55 trans works much the same way... The pump is mechanically driven (from the flats on the torque converter snout), but ALL of the solenoids, actuators and valves in the trans are electronically controlled, to alter shift points, speeds, and pressures. One thing most people don't realize about power steering systems is that there is a pressure bypass valve at the output of the pump, and that that pressure is reached at very low engine speeds, usually only slightly above idle.

I do agree that this subject has basically been beaten to death, but for someone to know the pros and cons to make their own decision, that info needs to be accurately and completely disclosed; and I think that's what we're trying to do here.