torque converters
6/6/08, 09:47 AM
#1
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torque converters
so what is everyone usig the stock one , or a custom one. If custom one what rpm stall speed like 3000,3500 , 3800 etc??
6/6/08, 11:11 AM
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I have been talking to Brenspeed on and off for the last few months about doing a torque converter. Since my car is a daily driver that will never see the track their suggestion is a 3000 rpm stall converter. The main reason I haven't done it is it will cost about $1,500 installed but since I don't race they said there isn't that much benefit for normal driving on the street. They carry the TCI street fighter for $499 shipped.
6/6/08, 12:50 PM
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Bama chips has a tune that will lock the stock torque converter at about 45 MPH when at WOT. I can chirp my tires from 1st into 2ed and a small chip from 2 to 3.. This is with his tune before he got fords codes to lock it up.
6/6/08, 01:00 PM
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I also ran that tune of Doug's and it was great. I agree. I am now running a totally different version from Brenspeed. You can also ask Doug for this change. 1st and 2nd gear will not shift until 3000 is reached in each. My 5th gear will not kick in until 55 on the way up and will drop back into 4th at 50 mph on the way back down. My TC also locks in every gear at WOT. This was Brent idea. It makes your automatic feel very much like a stick. It may be too aggressive for some but I like it. My wife hates it because it makes every gear change quite firm. No slushy feeling anywhere now.
6/6/08, 05:03 PM
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I have a Fuddle Racing Converter. I chose their 3800-4000 rpm stall speed. It is a full lock-up style converter (like the factory piece - for better highway mileage). My 07 GT is a daily driver that sees occasional drag strip duty so I went a little higher on stall speed than most guys might. However, I absolutely love it!!! Instant flash of rpm's right to peak torque (like side-stepping a clutch) and much better launches at the track (improved my 60' times by a full 1/4 second).
Worth noting: as you mod the car for more power, the converter will flash higher. Adding a JLT II CAI and tune pushed my converter to flash to 4,300 rpm's. I've since replaced the CAI with a Vortech supercharger and now it flashes to about 4,700 rpm's. This is great as it flashes right into good boost from my centrifugal blower and right about at peak torque! The downside is fuel economy (lost about 3mpg city AND highway), but my commute is only 4 miles and it's a whole lot funner now!
Fuddle sells the converter I have for $560. Paid a Ford dealership $250 for labor to install it. So, for about $800 I think it's a lot of bang for the buck.
Worth noting: as you mod the car for more power, the converter will flash higher. Adding a JLT II CAI and tune pushed my converter to flash to 4,300 rpm's. I've since replaced the CAI with a Vortech supercharger and now it flashes to about 4,700 rpm's. This is great as it flashes right into good boost from my centrifugal blower and right about at peak torque! The downside is fuel economy (lost about 3mpg city AND highway), but my commute is only 4 miles and it's a whole lot funner now!
Fuddle sells the converter I have for $560. Paid a Ford dealership $250 for labor to install it. So, for about $800 I think it's a lot of bang for the buck.
6/6/08, 05:49 PM
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I have a Fuddle Racing Converter. I chose their 3800-4000 rpm stall speed. It is a full lock-up style converter (like the factory piece - for better highway mileage). My 07 GT is a daily driver that sees occasional drag strip duty so I went a little higher on stall speed than most guys might. However, I absolutely love it!!! Instant flash of rpm's right to peak torque (like side-stepping a clutch) and much better launches at the track (improved my 60' times by a full 1/4 second).
Worth noting: as you mod the car for more power, the converter will flash higher. Adding a JLT II CAI and tune pushed my converter to flash to 4,300 rpm's. I've since replaced the CAI with a Vortech supercharger and now it flashes to about 4,700 rpm's. This is great as it flashes right into good boost from my centrifugal blower and right about at peak torque! The downside is fuel economy (lost about 3mpg city AND highway), but my commute is only 4 miles and it's a whole lot funner now!
Fuddle sells the converter I have for $560. Paid a Ford dealership $250 for labor to install it. So, for about $800 I think it's a lot of bang for the buck.
Worth noting: as you mod the car for more power, the converter will flash higher. Adding a JLT II CAI and tune pushed my converter to flash to 4,300 rpm's. I've since replaced the CAI with a Vortech supercharger and now it flashes to about 4,700 rpm's. This is great as it flashes right into good boost from my centrifugal blower and right about at peak torque! The downside is fuel economy (lost about 3mpg city AND highway), but my commute is only 4 miles and it's a whole lot funner now!
Fuddle sells the converter I have for $560. Paid a Ford dealership $250 for labor to install it. So, for about $800 I think it's a lot of bang for the buck.
But what about us N/A guys!!!
the original poster is also SC'ed. So your info will be good for him but what about us lonely N/A guys? 4300-4700 rpm is way out of line for a daily driver!! Just an old mans opinion!!
Last edited by 70MACH1OWNER; 6/6/08 at 05:54 PM.
6/6/08, 06:44 PM
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For a N/A car, I'd suggest a converter that flashes to about 3,500 rpm's if you plan to do any drag racing at all. Go with a more conservative 3,000 rpm stall if the car will only be a street driven car. If you do mods to a N/A motor that favor higher rpm's (cams, bigger throttle body, CAI, etc.) then you want to take advantage of the higher rpm powerband with a stall converter to match. It's all about intended use and matching components to work in harmony regardless of which rpm band you prefer.
6/6/08, 06:54 PM
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Peak torque of the 4.6L 3V V8 is at 4,500 rpm's. The factory converter only flashes to half that many rpm's so you have to struggle (at low hp & tq) to get up to the meat of the powerband. Slipping a clutch or using a stall converter bypasses that dead spot and gets you right into (or just below) the sweet spot in the powerband.
For a N/A car, I'd suggest a converter that flashes to about 3,500 rpm's if you plan to do any drag racing at all. Go with a more conservative 3,000 rpm stall if the car will only be a street driven car. If you do mods to a N/A motor that favor higher rpm's (cams, bigger throttle body, CAI, etc.) then you want to take advantage of the higher rpm powerband with a stall converter to match. It's all about intended use and matching components to work in harmony regardless of which rpm band you prefer.
For a N/A car, I'd suggest a converter that flashes to about 3,500 rpm's if you plan to do any drag racing at all. Go with a more conservative 3,000 rpm stall if the car will only be a street driven car. If you do mods to a N/A motor that favor higher rpm's (cams, bigger throttle body, CAI, etc.) then you want to take advantage of the higher rpm powerband with a stall converter to match. It's all about intended use and matching components to work in harmony regardless of which rpm band you prefer.
You seem to echo what Brent @ Brenspeed says. Still not sure it is a good mod for me!!
Scott
6/6/08, 07:19 PM
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Well said. It's not just at the track or even at WOT that you'll enjoy a big converter. Just part throttle to get some extra revs (not full flash to high rpm's) makes it easier to get up to speed than with a stock converter at full throttle.
6/7/08, 10:02 AM
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Since I have never driven a car with an aftermarket torque converter can you give me an explanation as to how it improves daily driving? I understand why the higher stall helps with launches at the track but I don't understand what other aspects in drivability are improved.
Thanks Scott
6/7/08, 10:55 AM
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Around town, a "loose" stall converter will get you into higher revs than a stock converter so easily that it makes the car feel like it has abundant torque anytime you give it a little throttle. If you ease into the throttle, the converter won't flash all the way to the advertised flash speed, so you can modulate how much rpm's rise much like slipping a clutch in a stick car. This makes getting up to speed a lot easier, even when you're not mashing the pedal to the floor. And, of course, when you mash it to the floor, the converter flashes instantly (to whichever stall speed you bought: 3,000, 3,500, 4,000 rpm's, etc.) and the car really gets up and dances whereas a factory converter makes you wait through lower rpm's to "slowly" wait for revs to rise until you approach peak torque (4,500 rpm's in a stock GT).
An advantage a stall converter has over a clutch is that it is actually a torque multiplier. A factory torque converter will net you 1.4 times the torque of the car at its stall speed (measured as a Stall Torque Ratio) according to most stall converter builders. A stock GT makes about 250 lb ft torque at the tires at 2,000 to 2,500 rpm's, so a stock converter effectively multiplies that to generate 350 lb ft torque when it flashes to get the car moving. The stall converter I bought is rated at 2.1 for a Stall Torque Ratio, so in a stock GT that makes about 270 lb ft torque at its peak torque (4,500 rpm's), with a stall converter that flashes to 4,500 rpm's you'd get an instant hit that would effectively multiply out to 567 lb ft torque! That's why an aftermarket converter can provide such a hard surge of power when it flashes (spinning tires and chirping them into the higher gears). Even getting a 3,000 rpm stall converter, where a stock GT makes roughly 255 lb ft torque, that 2.1 Stall Torque Ratio effectively multiplies out to 535 lb ft torque! Still an impressive feeling and acceleration. Keep in mind the car is NOT producing 500+ lb ft of torque, but the stall converter leverages the engine's torque to effectively feel and accelerate as if it did.
So, between the improved Stall Torque Ratio that an aftermarket converter provides and the increased stall speed (flash) to get you right into the thick of the powerband, an aftermarket stall converter is a remarkably cost effective way to improve how a car responds to throttle application dramatically (part or wide open).
An advantage a stall converter has over a clutch is that it is actually a torque multiplier. A factory torque converter will net you 1.4 times the torque of the car at its stall speed (measured as a Stall Torque Ratio) according to most stall converter builders. A stock GT makes about 250 lb ft torque at the tires at 2,000 to 2,500 rpm's, so a stock converter effectively multiplies that to generate 350 lb ft torque when it flashes to get the car moving. The stall converter I bought is rated at 2.1 for a Stall Torque Ratio, so in a stock GT that makes about 270 lb ft torque at its peak torque (4,500 rpm's), with a stall converter that flashes to 4,500 rpm's you'd get an instant hit that would effectively multiply out to 567 lb ft torque! That's why an aftermarket converter can provide such a hard surge of power when it flashes (spinning tires and chirping them into the higher gears). Even getting a 3,000 rpm stall converter, where a stock GT makes roughly 255 lb ft torque, that 2.1 Stall Torque Ratio effectively multiplies out to 535 lb ft torque! Still an impressive feeling and acceleration. Keep in mind the car is NOT producing 500+ lb ft of torque, but the stall converter leverages the engine's torque to effectively feel and accelerate as if it did.
So, between the improved Stall Torque Ratio that an aftermarket converter provides and the increased stall speed (flash) to get you right into the thick of the powerband, an aftermarket stall converter is a remarkably cost effective way to improve how a car responds to throttle application dramatically (part or wide open).
6/7/08, 11:53 AM
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Around town, a "loose" stall converter will get you into higher revs than a stock converter so easily that it makes the car feel like it has abundant torque anytime you give it a little throttle. If you ease into the throttle, the converter won't flash all the way to the advertised flash speed, so you can modulate how much rpm's rise much like slipping a clutch in a stick car. This makes getting up to speed a lot easier, even when you're not mashing the pedal to the floor. And, of course, when you mash it to the floor, the converter flashes instantly (to whichever stall speed you bought: 3,000, 3,500, 4,000 rpm's, etc.) and the car really gets up and dances whereas a factory converter makes you wait through lower rpm's to "slowly" wait for revs to rise until you approach peak torque (4,500 rpm's in a stock GT).
An advantage a stall converter has over a clutch is that it is actually a torque multiplier. A factory torque converter will net you 1.4 times the torque of the car at its stall speed (measured as a Stall Torque Ratio) according to most stall converter builders. A stock GT makes about 250 lb ft torque at the tires at 2,000 to 2,500 rpm's, so a stock converter effectively multiplies that to generate 350 lb ft torque when it flashes to get the car moving. The stall converter I bought is rated at 2.1 for a Stall Torque Ratio, so in a stock GT that makes about 270 lb ft torque at its peak torque (4,500 rpm's), with a stall converter that flashes to 4,500 rpm's you'd get an instant hit that would effectively multiply out to 567 lb ft torque! That's why an aftermarket converter can provide such a hard surge of power when it flashes (spinning tires and chirping them into the higher gears). Even getting a 3,000 rpm stall converter, where a stock GT makes roughly 255 lb ft torque, that 2.1 Stall Torque Ratio effectively multiplies out to 535 lb ft torque! Still an impressive feeling and acceleration. Keep in mind the car is NOT producing 500+ lb ft of torque, but the stall converter leverages the engine's torque to effectively feel and accelerate as if it did.
So, between the improved Stall Torque Ratio that an aftermarket converter provides and the increased stall speed (flash) to get you right into the thick of the powerband, an aftermarket stall converter is a remarkably cost effective way to improve how a car responds to throttle application dramatically (part or wide open).
An advantage a stall converter has over a clutch is that it is actually a torque multiplier. A factory torque converter will net you 1.4 times the torque of the car at its stall speed (measured as a Stall Torque Ratio) according to most stall converter builders. A stock GT makes about 250 lb ft torque at the tires at 2,000 to 2,500 rpm's, so a stock converter effectively multiplies that to generate 350 lb ft torque when it flashes to get the car moving. The stall converter I bought is rated at 2.1 for a Stall Torque Ratio, so in a stock GT that makes about 270 lb ft torque at its peak torque (4,500 rpm's), with a stall converter that flashes to 4,500 rpm's you'd get an instant hit that would effectively multiply out to 567 lb ft torque! That's why an aftermarket converter can provide such a hard surge of power when it flashes (spinning tires and chirping them into the higher gears). Even getting a 3,000 rpm stall converter, where a stock GT makes roughly 255 lb ft torque, that 2.1 Stall Torque Ratio effectively multiplies out to 535 lb ft torque! Still an impressive feeling and acceleration. Keep in mind the car is NOT producing 500+ lb ft of torque, but the stall converter leverages the engine's torque to effectively feel and accelerate as if it did.
So, between the improved Stall Torque Ratio that an aftermarket converter provides and the increased stall speed (flash) to get you right into the thick of the powerband, an aftermarket stall converter is a remarkably cost effective way to improve how a car responds to throttle application dramatically (part or wide open).
Very good explanation. I understand the beneifit better now. What is your opinion of the TCI street fighter with 3000 stall for my type of driving. And does it require a change in tune?
6/7/08, 01:05 PM
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None of the aftermarket lock-up converters require a change in tune. However, you can extract even more control of the the lock-up timing and shift points by changing the tune. My understanding is that Brenspeed and Bamachips both are experts at doing this. I have not changed my tune for the converter and still get excellent results, but I wonder how much quicker the car would be with Brenspeed or Doug working their magic.
For your intended use, Scott, I think a 3,000 rpm stall speed would be great. Just don't go any lower than that. If anything, err on the higher side (i.e. in the 3,200 to 3,400 range).
Last edited by Five Oh Brian; 6/7/08 at 01:13 PM.
6/7/08, 01:15 PM
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Here's a good explanation of what an aftermarket stall converter can do for our cars...
http://www.fuddleracing.com/WhatConvertersDo.html
On a side note, Fuddle sells three stall speeds for our cars (all are lock-up style)...3,000 to 3,200 rpm's, 3,400 to 3,600 rpm's, and 3,800 to 4,000 rpm's. I have the highest of the three, although with the new-found power of the supercharger, it actually stalls higher (roughly 4,700 rpm's). All stall converters will flash higher and higher as you add more power, so if you expect to heavily mod your car after buying a new converter, try to account for this and buy a lower stall speed than your may otherwise choose without modding the car.
http://www.fuddleracing.com/WhatConvertersDo.html
On a side note, Fuddle sells three stall speeds for our cars (all are lock-up style)...3,000 to 3,200 rpm's, 3,400 to 3,600 rpm's, and 3,800 to 4,000 rpm's. I have the highest of the three, although with the new-found power of the supercharger, it actually stalls higher (roughly 4,700 rpm's). All stall converters will flash higher and higher as you add more power, so if you expect to heavily mod your car after buying a new converter, try to account for this and buy a lower stall speed than your may otherwise choose without modding the car.
Last edited by Five Oh Brian; 6/7/08 at 01:18 PM.
6/7/08, 01:44 PM
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You got my mouth watering about this mod again Brian. I selected the TCI model because Brenspeed sells and installs them and I can get a free tune update. The price is $499 shipped and if I let them install the converter they will discount the shipping. But their install price quoted to me was $800. I sure like your $250 install price better. But I trust them and will pay their price if I proceed with this mod. You have been helpful and informative. Cleared up a lot of questions I had about doing a TC. Got another question I guess. Surely your car starts to move before you get to 4700 rpm right? I mean the TC just slips some until you reach that rpm and that is where is locks. I guess this is really been the question I have had all along but haven't ask. If I get a 3000 stall converter will the car not move until I get to 3000 rpm or that is just where the converter locks up? I know this sounds like a dumb question but I don't want to sound like I am wanting to race the guy next to me everytime I leave a stop light.
Scott
Here is the one I have been looking at. It is a lock up style.
Scott
Here is the one I have been looking at. It is a lock up style.
Last edited by 70MACH1OWNER; 6/7/08 at 02:22 PM.
6/7/08, 03:37 PM
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Hi, Scott. A stall converter swap is easy. Lower the trans on a trans jack, slide the stock TC off, slip the new stall converter on, raise the trans and bolt up. Done! I paid 4 hours labor through a Ford dealership to have it done. As I'm an employee, I got a big break on the hourly rate ($55 per hour). Any tranny shop, speed shop, or Ford dealership could do this swap in 4 hours, so it's all just a matter of their hourly rate. Most speed shops tend to be $80-$120 per hour, so it should still be under $500 labor. $800 seems awfully steep for such a simple job. Tuning isn't required, but could certainly make a stall converter work even better than no tuning.
My car can idle away from a stop light (unless I'm on an uphill incline). I can give it a little gas and start slowly much like a stock converter. The real difference is that when you tip in the throttle moderately or flat to the floor it will flash up the rpm's instantly. So, if I drive nicely around town and don't flash the converter (and stay out of the boost with the supercharger), I can get about 15 mpg. If I flash the converter a lot, which induces boost, then I'm getting 9-12 mpg depending on how much I'm in the boost.
Before the supercharger (but with the stall converter), city mileage was about 12-13 mpg when driving hard, or about 15-16 mpg without flashing the converter. Highway mileage was about 26-27 mpg at 60-65 mph, or about 23-24 mpg at 75-80 mph. So, factory-like mileage and manners if you drive nice.
There is no downside to going with a bigger converter other than the initial cost of buying/installing.
My car can idle away from a stop light (unless I'm on an uphill incline). I can give it a little gas and start slowly much like a stock converter. The real difference is that when you tip in the throttle moderately or flat to the floor it will flash up the rpm's instantly. So, if I drive nicely around town and don't flash the converter (and stay out of the boost with the supercharger), I can get about 15 mpg. If I flash the converter a lot, which induces boost, then I'm getting 9-12 mpg depending on how much I'm in the boost.
Before the supercharger (but with the stall converter), city mileage was about 12-13 mpg when driving hard, or about 15-16 mpg without flashing the converter. Highway mileage was about 26-27 mpg at 60-65 mph, or about 23-24 mpg at 75-80 mph. So, factory-like mileage and manners if you drive nice.
There is no downside to going with a bigger converter other than the initial cost of buying/installing.
6/7/08, 06:54 PM
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Hi, Scott. A stall converter swap is easy. Lower the trans on a trans jack, slide the stock TC off, slip the new stall converter on, raise the trans and bolt up. Done! I paid 4 hours labor through a Ford dealership to have it done. As I'm an employee, I got a big break on the hourly rate ($55 per hour). Any tranny shop, speed shop, or Ford dealership could do this swap in 4 hours, so it's all just a matter of their hourly rate. Most speed shops tend to be $80-$120 per hour, so it should still be under $500 labor. $800 seems awfully steep for such a simple job. Tuning isn't required, but could certainly make a stall converter work even better than no tuning.
My car can idle away from a stop light (unless I'm on an uphill incline). I can give it a little gas and start slowly much like a stock converter. The real difference is that when you tip in the throttle moderately or flat to the floor it will flash up the rpm's instantly. So, if I drive nicely around town and don't flash the converter (and stay out of the boost with the supercharger), I can get about 15 mpg. If I flash the converter a lot, which induces boost, then I'm getting 9-12 mpg depending on how much I'm in the boost.
Before the supercharger (but with the stall converter), city mileage was about 12-13 mpg when driving hard, or about 15-16 mpg without flashing the converter. Highway mileage was about 26-27 mpg at 60-65 mph, or about 23-24 mpg at 75-80 mph. So, factory-like mileage and manners if you drive nice.
There is no downside to going with a bigger converter other than the initial cost of buying/installing.
My car can idle away from a stop light (unless I'm on an uphill incline). I can give it a little gas and start slowly much like a stock converter. The real difference is that when you tip in the throttle moderately or flat to the floor it will flash up the rpm's instantly. So, if I drive nicely around town and don't flash the converter (and stay out of the boost with the supercharger), I can get about 15 mpg. If I flash the converter a lot, which induces boost, then I'm getting 9-12 mpg depending on how much I'm in the boost.
Before the supercharger (but with the stall converter), city mileage was about 12-13 mpg when driving hard, or about 15-16 mpg without flashing the converter. Highway mileage was about 26-27 mpg at 60-65 mph, or about 23-24 mpg at 75-80 mph. So, factory-like mileage and manners if you drive nice.
There is no downside to going with a bigger converter other than the initial cost of buying/installing.
I have another local source that I trust completely. I will stop by next week and see what they might charge. I have done business with them for 20 years and have the utmost respect for their ability!! Thanks again for all your insight!!
Last edited by 70MACH1OWNER; 6/8/08 at 05:39 AM.
