View Poll Results: Use lockouts on cam install
yes
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6
66.67%
no
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3
33.33%
Voters: 9. You may not vote on this poll
Those with Cams installed.. v Lockouts Poll
#1
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Those with Cams installed.. v Lockouts Poll
Just curious what the majority of you have done. I've considered using them and as someone suggested useing them and zero'ing out the vct function.
What has everyone done and why?
I'm getting everything together and want to do it right the first time.
I assume I'd lock it out in the fully retarded position.
Comp Cam VSR Stage 2 cams.
thanks
jake
What has everyone done and why?
I'm getting everything together and want to do it right the first time.
I assume I'd lock it out in the fully retarded position.
Comp Cam VSR Stage 2 cams.
thanks
jake
Last edited by 06GTwJUICE; 1/7/09 at 09:21 AM.
#4
The BBR stage 2 cams lockout at 17 degrees advanced. The question should be: Should I use lockouts along with a spring change? And what if the phase limiters ever malfunction and cause a piston to crash into a valve? I keep hearing over and over....do springs....do lockouts. It doesn't have to be done, but the added friction from the springs causes VCT lag time and other tune problems. That's what I hear anyway. Just look into it before you jump. And not just here on this forum.
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The BBR stage 2 cams lockout at 17 degrees advanced. The question should be: Should I use lockouts along with a spring change? And what if the phase limiters ever malfunction and cause a piston to crash into a valve? I keep hearing over and over....do springs....do lockouts. It doesn't have to be done, but the added friction from the springs causes VCT lag time and other tune problems. That's what I hear anyway. Just look into it before you jump. And not just here on this forum.
That's why I would suggest them, expensive mistake. As to the lag time you were referring, a good tuner can take car of that but you do need someone that's really on their game
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Before I'd listen to what I say though, call the manufacturer. See what they recommend b/c if i'm not mistaken they say lockouts aren't required for anything less than a stage 3.
Last edited by EagleStroker; 1/8/09 at 11:00 PM.
#6
I have the comp 127300 cams, which I beleive may be the same cam you are describing. Anyway, I consulted with Livernois, and at the time they had just released their lockouts, so we put them in.
With my cams being pretty mild, piston to valve collisions were not the concern, but rather a phaser failure was what we were trying to prevent. We put the car on the dyno, and it was a dissapointment, partly because the lockouts rob horsepower by nullifying the VCT. Some people have done back to back dyno runs with lockouts/no lockouts and found as much as 40 hp w/o the lockouts. Livernois will tell you the lockouts reduce power by 10-15 whp on average. Understand they may have a vested interest in stating that loss conservatively. To say it another way, you could see more than a 10-15 hp gain with using limiters as opoosed to lockouts.
Now, the best of both worlds is Livernois limiters. They limit advance to 20 degrees, so you will not have piston to valve collisions, and Mike at Livernois claims that eliminate phaser failure to a 99.9% ceetainty. They have done extendive testing with their limiters and are not having ANY failures. They highly reccomend them in all but the most serious builds. In other words, cars built for the strip, or ultra high horsepower, they suggest a full lockout.
I removed my lockouts and installed their new limiters and my car is putting down around 550whp. I would suggest you call Livernois and talk to Mike.
With my cams being pretty mild, piston to valve collisions were not the concern, but rather a phaser failure was what we were trying to prevent. We put the car on the dyno, and it was a dissapointment, partly because the lockouts rob horsepower by nullifying the VCT. Some people have done back to back dyno runs with lockouts/no lockouts and found as much as 40 hp w/o the lockouts. Livernois will tell you the lockouts reduce power by 10-15 whp on average. Understand they may have a vested interest in stating that loss conservatively. To say it another way, you could see more than a 10-15 hp gain with using limiters as opoosed to lockouts.
Now, the best of both worlds is Livernois limiters. They limit advance to 20 degrees, so you will not have piston to valve collisions, and Mike at Livernois claims that eliminate phaser failure to a 99.9% ceetainty. They have done extendive testing with their limiters and are not having ANY failures. They highly reccomend them in all but the most serious builds. In other words, cars built for the strip, or ultra high horsepower, they suggest a full lockout.
I removed my lockouts and installed their new limiters and my car is putting down around 550whp. I would suggest you call Livernois and talk to Mike.
Last edited by exgto; 1/9/09 at 08:13 AM.
#7
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I'm installing the 127300 cams in my car as well.
The confusion starts because Brenspeed and Comp Cams site lists them as stage 2 and another site Evoperform lists them as Stage 3 cams. I'm leaning toward believing Comp Cam since they made the cams.
Sites all say just Valve springs are required.
I inquired about lockouts at Brenspeed and they said not needed and to take advantage of the VCT. They have no seen a failure on the phasers and contribute any issues with them from low oil pressure. They operate with oil pressure and if they don't get enough they start to make noise and then have a potential to fail and be noisey.
The confusion starts because Brenspeed and Comp Cams site lists them as stage 2 and another site Evoperform lists them as Stage 3 cams. I'm leaning toward believing Comp Cam since they made the cams.
Sites all say just Valve springs are required.
I inquired about lockouts at Brenspeed and they said not needed and to take advantage of the VCT. They have no seen a failure on the phasers and contribute any issues with them from low oil pressure. They operate with oil pressure and if they don't get enough they start to make noise and then have a potential to fail and be noisey.
#8
I'm installing the 127300 cams in my car as well.
The confusion starts because Brenspeed and Comp Cams site lists them as stage 2 and another site Evoperform lists them as Stage 3 cams. I'm leaning toward believing Comp Cam since they made the cams.
Sites all say just Valve springs are required.
I inquired about lockouts at Brenspeed and they said not needed and to take advantage of the VCT. They have no seen a failure on the phasers and contribute any issues with them from low oil pressure. They operate with oil pressure and if they don't get enough they start to make noise and then have a potential to fail and be noisey.
The confusion starts because Brenspeed and Comp Cams site lists them as stage 2 and another site Evoperform lists them as Stage 3 cams. I'm leaning toward believing Comp Cam since they made the cams.
Sites all say just Valve springs are required.
I inquired about lockouts at Brenspeed and they said not needed and to take advantage of the VCT. They have no seen a failure on the phasers and contribute any issues with them from low oil pressure. They operate with oil pressure and if they don't get enough they start to make noise and then have a potential to fail and be noisey.
Be sure you get the heavier (HD) comp springs. The other comp springs are actually weaker than stock and are believed to be repackaged 2 valve springs.
Oil pressure is how VCT functions yes, but bare in mind that a spring change may impact oil pressure. The conventional wisdom among engine builders is to use lockouts or limiters anytime springs are changed.
#9
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I just got the cams and springs via ups from Comp.
The springs are the correct part number on brenspeeds site but the box says Ford 4.6L 2 valve sohc valve springs.
so a dohc is basically a sohc x2??
I'll call brenspeed and verify.
The springs are the correct part number on brenspeeds site but the box says Ford 4.6L 2 valve sohc valve springs.
so a dohc is basically a sohc x2??
I'll call brenspeed and verify.
#10
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I looked on Comp Cams website and the part number I received is the correct one for the valve springs. There is an option of heavy duty springs but it say for turbo/supercharged apps above a certain rpm.
Max redline for the cams powerband is 6400rpm.. am I to assume I can have redline bumped up to 6400?
Max redline for the cams powerband is 6400rpm.. am I to assume I can have redline bumped up to 6400?
#11
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I looked on Comp Cams website and the part number I received is the correct one for the valve springs. There is an option of heavy duty springs but it say for turbo/supercharged apps above a certain rpm.
Max redline for the cams powerband is 6400rpm.. am I to assume I can have redline bumped up to 6400?
Max redline for the cams powerband is 6400rpm.. am I to assume I can have redline bumped up to 6400?
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#13
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#15
I looked on Comp Cams website and the part number I received is the correct one for the valve springs. There is an option of heavy duty springs but it say for turbo/supercharged apps above a certain rpm.
Max redline for the cams powerband is 6400rpm.. am I to assume I can have redline bumped up to 6400?
Max redline for the cams powerband is 6400rpm.. am I to assume I can have redline bumped up to 6400?
There are doccumented cases of people installing the springs you received and experiencing a power loss due to valve float.
Send them back and get the heavier springs.
#16
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I'm going to talk to them monday and see about returning these and getting the HD ones.
I talked to, of all people, my girlfriend who knows nothing about cars, explained the situation to her and she said... "get the better ones".
I talked to, of all people, my girlfriend who knows nothing about cars, explained the situation to her and she said... "get the better ones".
#18
[quote=EagleStroker;5724247]The lockouts are actually what's preventing the cam from crushing a valve.
That's right, but I'm not sure about needing just a good tuner to compensate for the added friction from heavier springs. I've read on another forum where some are saying you'll need an even higher volume oil pump to compensate for the lag, but of course this is all talk. It's just a good idea to keep the discussion full of what's being said so the right questions are asked.
That's right, but I'm not sure about needing just a good tuner to compensate for the added friction from heavier springs. I've read on another forum where some are saying you'll need an even higher volume oil pump to compensate for the lag, but of course this is all talk. It's just a good idea to keep the discussion full of what's being said so the right questions are asked.
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[QUOTE=anthony05gt;5726028]
The lockouts are actually what's preventing the cam from crushing a valve.
That's right, but I'm not sure about needing just a good tuner to compensate for the added friction from heavier springs. I've read on another forum where some are saying you'll need an even higher volume oil pump to compensate for the lag, but of course this is all talk. It's just a good idea to keep the discussion full of what's being said so the right questions are asked.
That's right, but I'm not sure about needing just a good tuner to compensate for the added friction from heavier springs. I've read on another forum where some are saying you'll need an even higher volume oil pump to compensate for the lag, but of course this is all talk. It's just a good idea to keep the discussion full of what's being said so the right questions are asked.
#20
I don't doubt that. I personally went with the lockouts because I am pushing the stock bottom ends limits with the Whipple. Kevin MacDonald tunes my car (Also tunes Justin Burcham's 8.50's car) He's about the best out there. I'll have to ask him what he thinks because JPC Racing uses a lot of Comp cam set ups and Kevin tunes them all.