S197 and Paddle Shifters
1/25/07, 04:31 PM
#1
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S197 and Paddle Shifters
Anyone know if a Paddle Shifter can be incorporated into the S197? Check out this link.. this would be the ultimate mod for automatics:
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...ifter_install/
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...ifter_install/
1/25/07, 04:57 PM
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Having driven a few BMW's with their SMG transmission (this had paddles), after I got done, I wanted the clutch and stick back. There was WAY too long of a delay between tapping the paddle and the gear changing (this was in a Z3 3.0 and a Z4 3.0. Its ALOT different in say a Ferrari (with the F1 trans), or Lamborghini (with its E-Gear), but some are just not fast enough to make it fun.
1/25/07, 05:59 PM
#5
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not realyl, the power is still running through a slushbox, so it doesnt work.
btw i hear the 7 speed in the new M% is incredible. but its just a thing of mine. i refuse to drive anything that doesnt have a third pedal.
That is a neat concept though. and if you could adapt it to an 05+ that would be a neat drive. especially with a good shift kit in the trans. me personally... give me a clutch.
btw i hear the 7 speed in the new M% is incredible. but its just a thing of mine. i refuse to drive anything that doesnt have a third pedal.
That is a neat concept though. and if you could adapt it to an 05+ that would be a neat drive. especially with a good shift kit in the trans. me personally... give me a clutch.
1/25/07, 08:49 PM
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Having driven a few BMW's with their SMG transmission (this had paddles), after I got done, I wanted the clutch and stick back. There was WAY too long of a delay between tapping the paddle and the gear changing (this was in a Z3 3.0 and a Z4 3.0. Its ALOT different in say a Ferrari (with the F1 trans), or Lamborghini (with its E-Gear), but some are just not fast enough to make it fun.
1/26/07, 06:16 AM
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FIRST: your auto is slipping upon initial movement, while manuals can just pop the clutch. Also, autos lose more horsepower to the wheels and than manuals
SECOND: At WOT, you can't get the car to shift at a lower rpm without letting off the gas. Therefore, while you are accelerating near redline waiting for the car to shift, I can shift at a lower rpm to keep the engine in it's power curve.
THIRD: Auto may not "miss" a shift, but it does what it wants to do, vs. a manual that is more "controlled"
FOURTH: Come up to someone on the highway and try racing your auto to his manual. The manual driver will be able to downshift much faster than the auto. In fact, if you want to downshift two gears in the auto, it does each one individually. And, if the manual knows how to double-clutch, I think he will have taken off before the auto even got into gear.
So, don't be so quick to say that a manual would lose. Autos are more consistent, but manuals are more adjustable.
I'm not bashing the autos. I test drove one before getting my manual, and I was quite impressed with the launch and acceleration (It felt faster than the manual). But, I honestly didn't like how uncontrolled they were off the line...vs. a manual where you can slip the clutch more to control wheelspin, etc. Also, I disliked the delay when downshifting (ie-it shifting down two gears individually to do a 5-3 downshift)
SECOND: At WOT, you can't get the car to shift at a lower rpm without letting off the gas. Therefore, while you are accelerating near redline waiting for the car to shift, I can shift at a lower rpm to keep the engine in it's power curve.
THIRD: Auto may not "miss" a shift, but it does what it wants to do, vs. a manual that is more "controlled"
FOURTH: Come up to someone on the highway and try racing your auto to his manual. The manual driver will be able to downshift much faster than the auto. In fact, if you want to downshift two gears in the auto, it does each one individually. And, if the manual knows how to double-clutch, I think he will have taken off before the auto even got into gear.
So, don't be so quick to say that a manual would lose. Autos are more consistent, but manuals are more adjustable.
I'm not bashing the autos. I test drove one before getting my manual, and I was quite impressed with the launch and acceleration (It felt faster than the manual). But, I honestly didn't like how uncontrolled they were off the line...vs. a manual where you can slip the clutch more to control wheelspin, etc. Also, I disliked the delay when downshifting (ie-it shifting down two gears individually to do a 5-3 downshift)
1/26/07, 07:21 AM
#11
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not realyl, the power is still running through a slushbox, so it doesnt work.
btw i hear the 7 speed in the new M% is incredible. but its just a thing of mine. i refuse to drive anything that doesnt have a third pedal.
That is a neat concept though. and if you could adapt it to an 05+ that would be a neat drive. especially with a good shift kit in the trans. me personally... give me a clutch.
btw i hear the 7 speed in the new M% is incredible. but its just a thing of mine. i refuse to drive anything that doesnt have a third pedal.
That is a neat concept though. and if you could adapt it to an 05+ that would be a neat drive. especially with a good shift kit in the trans. me personally... give me a clutch.
The real problem with the SMG 7-speed in the M5 (and M6) is that is WAY TOO over technified. If you ever saw the episode of Top Gear where the 3 guys drove an M6, V8 Aston, and the 911 Carrera S. It took them almost 10 minutes to go through the menu to get the transmission in the right mode. (there are 15 modes I think). In my eyes, this isn't fun. I don't want to be playing with a computer to change shift modes, I want to drive the thing. Give me a clutch and stick anyday.
1/26/07, 08:03 AM
#12
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Hey Joe, the funny thing about the new M5 is that BMW got so much flack for offering only the SMG in the new M5 when it 1st arrived, and not also offering a traditional manual, that the 2007's now have a true 6-speed with clutch as a no-charge option.
The real problem with the SMG 7-speed in the M5 (and M6) is that is WAY TOO over technified. If you ever saw the episode of Top Gear where the 3 guys drove an M6, V8 Aston, and the 911 Carrera S. It took them almost 10 minutes to go through the menu to get the transmission in the right mode. (there are 15 modes I think). In my eyes, this isn't fun. I don't want to be playing with a computer to change shift modes, I want to drive the thing. Give me a clutch and stick anyday.
The real problem with the SMG 7-speed in the M5 (and M6) is that is WAY TOO over technified. If you ever saw the episode of Top Gear where the 3 guys drove an M6, V8 Aston, and the 911 Carrera S. It took them almost 10 minutes to go through the menu to get the transmission in the right mode. (there are 15 modes I think). In my eyes, this isn't fun. I don't want to be playing with a computer to change shift modes, I want to drive the thing. Give me a clutch and stick anyday.
oh i saw that episode. if i were to buy one, it would be with a standard manual. however one issue. BMW decided to stick it to the man and not put in a TCS off button with the standard six speed. i havent read the article myself yet, but apparently road and track was not a hug fan of the standard six speed.
i agree though having i think 35 different combinations of trans settings is a hell of a lot more complicated than a clutch pedal. BTW for fans of that car:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvZCYH37DBQ
oh and one last thing... I am getting a tad sick of people thinking the only reason we buy mustangs is to go as fast as humanly possible in a straight line. claiming that the auto is better and all. I am not a drag racing fan by any means, and cant wait to get my car out on the road course. and remember. you NEED a manual out there, the trans would heat up too much, and you need to be able to hold a gear in a turn for proer balance of the car.
but still. The paddle shift upgrade to an auto is a pretty awesome idea imo
1/26/07, 08:14 AM
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FIRST: your auto is slipping upon initial movement, while manuals can just pop the clutch. Also, autos lose more horsepower to the wheels and than manuals
SECOND: At WOT, you can't get the car to shift at a lower rpm without letting off the gas. Therefore, while you are accelerating near redline waiting for the car to shift, I can shift at a lower rpm to keep the engine in it's power curve.
THIRD: Auto may not "miss" a shift, but it does what it wants to do, vs. a manual that is more "controlled"
FOURTH: Come up to someone on the highway and try racing your auto to his manual. The manual driver will be able to downshift much faster than the auto. In fact, if you want to downshift two gears in the auto, it does each one individually. And, if the manual knows how to double-clutch, I think he will have taken off before the auto even got into gear.
So, don't be so quick to say that a manual would lose. Autos are more consistent, but manuals are more adjustable.
I'm not bashing the autos. I test drove one before getting my manual, and I was quite impressed with the launch and acceleration (It felt faster than the manual). But, I honestly didn't like how uncontrolled they were off the line...vs. a manual where you can slip the clutch more to control wheelspin, etc. Also, I disliked the delay when downshifting (ie-it shifting down two gears individually to do a 5-3 downshift)
SECOND: At WOT, you can't get the car to shift at a lower rpm without letting off the gas. Therefore, while you are accelerating near redline waiting for the car to shift, I can shift at a lower rpm to keep the engine in it's power curve.
THIRD: Auto may not "miss" a shift, but it does what it wants to do, vs. a manual that is more "controlled"
FOURTH: Come up to someone on the highway and try racing your auto to his manual. The manual driver will be able to downshift much faster than the auto. In fact, if you want to downshift two gears in the auto, it does each one individually. And, if the manual knows how to double-clutch, I think he will have taken off before the auto even got into gear.
So, don't be so quick to say that a manual would lose. Autos are more consistent, but manuals are more adjustable.
I'm not bashing the autos. I test drove one before getting my manual, and I was quite impressed with the launch and acceleration (It felt faster than the manual). But, I honestly didn't like how uncontrolled they were off the line...vs. a manual where you can slip the clutch more to control wheelspin, etc. Also, I disliked the delay when downshifting (ie-it shifting down two gears individually to do a 5-3 downshift)
As far as being more controlled: the auto trans can be programmed to do what YOU want it to (ie: shift points, firmness, pressure) you can program it to shift a WOT right at the sweet spot.
put a manual up against a GT with a stall converter and compare 60' times. you might be surprised. Manuals do have more issues with wheel spin off the line.
Manuals may be more fun, but certainly not better or worse than the autos.
1/26/07, 08:29 AM
#14
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I have the paddle shifters on my 2007 Lexus IS 250 AWD and I am finding them a little difficult to get used to spirited driving situations. I will admit though that I am still getting used to it as we've only had the car a month and a half.
1/26/07, 09:14 AM
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On the car I test drove, the car would shift from 5-4, then 4-3, if you pushed the gas in while cruising at 45. Same as if you manually downshifted the auto from OD to 3: it would downshift from 5-4, then 4-3. I could not get it to do a 5-3.
With a manual, you can still "control" the car better than you can with an auto. With regard to the tuner: Can you program WOT shift points vs. normal throttle shift points? If so, that is a very nice feature to have.
No argument regarding the stall converter, but I was relating stock to stock, more or less...
I never said one was better than the other, nor did I say that one was more fun than the other. I was just comparing the pros and cons of each.
I will be the first to tell you that I can't stand the manual when I am stuck in traffic. It absolutely sucks, and is NOT fun. Also, clutches wear...and labor is not cheap when getting it replaced. And let's not even start with throw out bearings...I went through 4 on my 00 V6, not because of abuse, but b/c the factory had major issues with them. That was one reason why I test drove an auto, and why I was willing to compromise for an auto if needed.
There are advantages and disadvantages to each. All I was saying was that don't be so quick to say that just because an auto won't miss a shift doesn't mean that the manual will lose.
As far as being more controlled: the auto trans can be programmed to do what YOU want it to (ie: shift points, firmness, pressure) you can program it to shift a WOT right at the sweet spot.
put a manual up against a GT with a stall converter and compare 60' times. you might be surprised. Manuals do have more issues with wheel spin off the line
put a manual up against a GT with a stall converter and compare 60' times. you might be surprised. Manuals do have more issues with wheel spin off the line
No argument regarding the stall converter, but I was relating stock to stock, more or less...
Manuals may be more fun, but certainly not better or worse than the autos.
I will be the first to tell you that I can't stand the manual when I am stuck in traffic. It absolutely sucks, and is NOT fun. Also, clutches wear...and labor is not cheap when getting it replaced. And let's not even start with throw out bearings...I went through 4 on my 00 V6, not because of abuse, but b/c the factory had major issues with them. That was one reason why I test drove an auto, and why I was willing to compromise for an auto if needed.
There are advantages and disadvantages to each. All I was saying was that don't be so quick to say that just because an auto won't miss a shift doesn't mean that the manual will lose.
1/26/07, 09:28 AM
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Ford Mustang = Muscle car
Ford Mustang != Lambo with F1 tranny
Althought it would be "neat and innovative", it just plain wouldn't fit with the image of a Mustang or any AMERICAN car for that matter!
We are AMERICANS who can drive sticks... not some sissy Italians who never won a war!
Ford Mustang != Lambo with F1 tranny
Althought it would be "neat and innovative", it just plain wouldn't fit with the image of a Mustang or any AMERICAN car for that matter!
We are AMERICANS who can drive sticks... not some sissy Italians who never won a war!
1/26/07, 09:39 AM
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On the car I test drove, the car would shift from 5-4, then 4-3, if you pushed the gas in while cruising at 45. Same as if you manually downshifted the auto from OD to 3: it would downshift from 5-4, then 4-3. I could not get it to do a 5-3.
With a manual, you can still "control" the car better than you can with an auto. With regard to the tuner: Can you program WOT shift points vs. normal throttle shift points? If so, that is a very nice feature to have.
No argument regarding the stall converter, but I was relating stock to stock, more or less...
I never said one was better than the other, nor did I say that one was more fun than the other. I was just comparing the pros and cons of each.
I will be the first to tell you that I can't stand the manual when I am stuck in traffic. It absolutely sucks, and is NOT fun. Also, clutches wear...and labor is not cheap when getting it replaced. And let's not even start with throw out bearings...I went through 4 on my 00 V6, not because of abuse, but b/c the factory had major issues with them. That was one reason why I test drove an auto, and why I was willing to compromise for an auto if needed.
There are advantages and disadvantages to each. All I was saying was that don't be so quick to say that just because an auto won't miss a shift doesn't mean that the manual will lose.
With a manual, you can still "control" the car better than you can with an auto. With regard to the tuner: Can you program WOT shift points vs. normal throttle shift points? If so, that is a very nice feature to have.
No argument regarding the stall converter, but I was relating stock to stock, more or less...
I never said one was better than the other, nor did I say that one was more fun than the other. I was just comparing the pros and cons of each.
I will be the first to tell you that I can't stand the manual when I am stuck in traffic. It absolutely sucks, and is NOT fun. Also, clutches wear...and labor is not cheap when getting it replaced. And let's not even start with throw out bearings...I went through 4 on my 00 V6, not because of abuse, but b/c the factory had major issues with them. That was one reason why I test drove an auto, and why I was willing to compromise for an auto if needed.
There are advantages and disadvantages to each. All I was saying was that don't be so quick to say that just because an auto won't miss a shift doesn't mean that the manual will lose.
1/26/07, 09:39 AM
#18
Team Mustang Source
You know I would love to see that on a Mustang, but for me I see a major hurdle.. Ford Motor Company. Lets face it as cool as it could be it would not be done "right", ala Ferrari, and if it can't be done right then I don't want it. I'm not saying that Ford couldn't do it I just don't think they'd spend the time, resources, money and R&D into it the way that Ferrari has. If they don't we'd end up with a kludgy representation of the product that everyone would most likely universally hate. No one wants to see that.
perhaps in a different time maybe they could pull this off but until they get out of the morass that they are currently in I feel that technology, high-technology, like this is only a pipe-dream.
perhaps in a different time maybe they could pull this off but until they get out of the morass that they are currently in I feel that technology, high-technology, like this is only a pipe-dream.
1/26/07, 09:41 AM
#19
Team Mustang Source
Ford Mustang = Muscle car
Ford Mustang != Lambo with F1 tranny
Althought it would be "neat and innovative", it just plain wouldn't fit with the image of a Mustang or any AMERICAN car for that matter!
We are AMERICANS who can drive sticks... not some sissy Italians who never won a war!
Ford Mustang != Lambo with F1 tranny
Althought it would be "neat and innovative", it just plain wouldn't fit with the image of a Mustang or any AMERICAN car for that matter!
We are AMERICANS who can drive sticks... not some sissy Italians who never won a war!
But they do make nice cars. If I had the money I'd be at the Ferrari stealership in a hearbeat, sissy tranny and all.
1/26/07, 09:58 AM
#20
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Let's see...Ford provided us with a car with great styling, handling and 300 ponies under the hood for about 27k. They were able to do that by leaving off doodads like paddle shifting and the like. I personally am really happy they did. If you want exotic, Ford has one for you...it's called the GT! Just my .02 worth.