ILikeBond

It seems to me that a fatal flaw with comparisons of "this" CAI to "that" CAI is that the comparison depends upon the combination of the particular CAI and tune. Thus 2 variables are compared to 2 variables, ultimately meaning any such comparison is not "apples to apples." Moreover, some people have suggested that a CAI, in itself, gives you NO gain over the stock intake (instead, it is only the tune that is showing the gains that are inaccurately attributed to the CAI).

It would be very easy to assess the comparative gains of each CAI over the stock intake. To my knowledge, no one has done this so far, and it surprises me.

Simply:

1. DYNO stock intake with no tune (for baseline) [A]
2. DYNO stock intake with X tune (where X is, for example, 91 octane) [B]

B minus A is the gain attributable solely to the tune.

3. DYNO CAI 1 with X tune [C]
4. DYNO CAI 2 with X tune [D]
5. DYNO CAI 3 with X tune [E]

C minus B is gain attributable to CAI 1 over stock intake (gain 1);
D minus B is gain attributable to CAI 2 over stock intake (gain 2);
E minus B is gain attributable to CAI 3 over stock intake (gain 3);

The greatest of gain 1, gain 2, and gain 3 undisputably shows which CAI results in the greatest gains over stock. End of story.

Obviously, each tune would have to be optimized to the individual CAI (since each would have slightly different parameters and requirements and we would, in any case, customize/optimize the tune to the fullest extent possible). Only the octane parameter would have to remain constant. It wouldn't matter which tuner (SCT, Diablo, etc.) one uses, except that, to maintain consistency, it should be one that is capable of creating a customized optimal tune for each of CAI 1-3.

Who'll volunteer to do this? My rough guestimate is it would cost the price of the tuner, the DYNO for several hours, the hardware (the CAIs to be compared), and the labor required to create a customized tune for each CAI, and would take several hours.

Of course, it would be preferable that an independent evaluator conduct the experiment. I'm surprised that none of the Mustang magazines have done this yet. If any of them are "out there," I'm sure such an article would be a highlight for many folks here. I personally am still not sold on a single particular CAI because I've seen no meaningful comparisons (including the comparison of the JLT to the C&L).

thoughts?

169stang

I think 5.0 mustang mag has an isssue coming out. I still don't think it will be totally objective!

sranger

As I said in an earlier post, I do not think you will see this. The main reason is that you test will show that the vast majority of the hp gains come from the tune, not the CAI....

That might not be good advertising for the CAI guys.....

max2000jp

Again, I will tell you to do some research on the subject at hand. I don't have any interests in any of the CAI companies. The standard tunes alone are only worth 7-10 whp. Modular depot had a good write up, search goole. The tune and intake work together and create a synergy.

sranger

I watched one tuner work on an 05 for about an hour. He got 27hp with nothing more that a custom SCT tune, a drop in air filter and the carbon trap removed on 93 octane....

Now I admit that the Dyno could have been lying, but that it what I personally saw...

ILikeBond

Again, I will tell you to do some research on the subject at hand. I don't have any interests in any of the CAI companies. The standard tunes alone are only worth 7-10 whp. Modular depot had a good write up, search goole. The tune and intake work together and create a synergy.
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See? This is the whole point. One guy says it's the tune, the next says its the CAI+tune, but there is no meaningful evidence that I have seen yet to support either proposition. To make this determination in a verifiable (scientific) way would be very straightforward and, relatively speaking, cheap and quick. I think a well-done article following a correct method of testing these hypotheses would pay many times over for the cost of running the experiment, and would finally put an end to all the speculation on these boards.

I haven't looked at the Modular Depot article yet, but I'll take a look (if I can find it - if you can, a link would be helpful)...

killo-11

Obviously you don’t understand why a tune is needed. The CAI isn’t just some tubing with some kind of cone filter on it. Part of the kit is a larger mass air meter witch will require a tune to keep the engine from running to lean at WOT. If you really wanted to be scientific you will need to test all CAI on a flow bench to see who flows more. The one with the highest flow rate will potentially have the most gains if tune properly. Theoretically if 2 different CAI flow the same then the tune no matter whose it was would work the same if set up for the as tested flow rate.

sranger

Ok...

A fair post by Modular depot....

Here is a site that has a fair review and produced results very similar to what I saw personally...

Standard SCT Tune ONLY = 7rwhp.

Note: After the tune they noted that: "This was leaving some horsepower on the table. There should be another 8-10 rwhp with additional timing. "

Removing the Carbon trap added 10hp for a total of 17rwhp

Once the CAI was installed they picked up 8 more rwhp...

So it clearly shows that the tune and removing the carbon trap provides the majority of the hp as I said earlier.....

max2000jp

http://www.modulardepot.com/?show=articlesdet&aid=52

The thing with the intake and tune is they work together. The tune alone is only worth 10 at the most. The intake is worth another 10-12 and the rest is found in C&L's case, by providing a freer-flowing tube minus the Hydro Trap. My car definetely pulls harder with the C&L and tune vs. without the HC trap and tune. FYI, MMR's intake doesn't flow as well as C&L's and JLT's per what I have seen.

sranger

You may want to read your own article a little better.

The tune and removing the carbon trap was worth 17hp in the dyno results.

Adding the CAI only added 8hp...


At least that is what the article actually said.....

They also noted as I said above that more tuning alone would yeild an addition 8-10hp.

That is EXACTLY what I saw for my self.......

max2000jp

Search 2005MustangGT as a username IIRC. He did a good write up comparing JLT's intake to MMR's on the dyno. Shows how much the intake is good for on a dyno. He did a real valid comparison.

max2000jp

I have a C&L, so it's a bit different from MMR's. Plus I have a DS Predator. The trap is worth some hp, but how much varies on whom you ask. The intake and tune provide a great gain, especially above 5K. Definetly worth the money!

max2000jp

Please, before you argue anymore, at least click "SEARCH" up top. Plenty of unbiased reviews and track data to backup the gains. I did a lot of research on the subject before I bought mine. All the fastest N/A GTs are running intakes, coincidence??

sranger

Well to be fair, I was just pointing out the actual results of the article that you chose to use as an example.....

Also, the point I am trying to make is that most dyno result that the people who make the CAI kits show you are Dyno result BEFORE the carbon trap is removed!

If you remove the trap, Install a custome tune and a better air filter, you are not going to see nearly as much gain with the CAI system....

I agree with additional mods like bigger injectors, bigger Mass Air meters, Underdrive pullies, ect the air intake will make more of a difference.

max2000jp

Understandable....JLT's is dyno proven to flow better than MMR's. C&L's provides more power as well. If you factor that into the picture, the 2 mentioned intakes provide the most hp out of the variables we are discussing.

ILikeBond

OK (with respect to the last several posts), fair enough - one question: why do we not know, then, which CAI+tune results in the most RWHP gains over stock? If you do know, please - tell me! What's better in terms of raw performance, and what's better in terms of bang-for-the-buck: Steeda, C&L, MMR, JLT, ...?

For instance, JLT claims higher gains than C&L because the plastic tube keeps the air temperature lower than C&L's aluminum tube. This seems like a reasonable inference, but the question is whether the temperature difference, if any, translates into RWHP gains over C&L. Even though JLT has posted DYNO results purporting to show a greater gain than C&L, I think his results have been reasonably questioned by some posters.

While the poster suggesting that the flow rate is the key variable is certainly correct, JLT is claiming that other variables (air temperature), rather than air flow, are what separates his product. Similarly, each CAI is going to have different design elements, such as shield v. no shield, bend, placement of filter, quality of the MAF, etc. Thus taking each system as a whole, optimally tuning (based on the same octane) to each system individually, and comparing each's gain over the stock intake similarly optimally tuned (as opposed to a conclusory representation that CAI 1 shows 4 RWHP gain over CAI 2, or some such thing) makes sense to me.

In the end we'd be left with a definitive statement of which CAI, when optimally tuned to X octane, results in the greatest RWHP gains over the stock intake when similarly optimally tuned to X octane. Apples to apples.

If CAI 1 showed a 10 hp gain over stock and cost $400 and CAI 2 showed an 8 hp gain and cost $200, it would allow many people to make a more effective cost/benefit analysis with regard to which CAI to purchase, or whether to even purchase one in the first place.

Incidentally, I personally believe the CAI+optimal tune is well worth the money, and would result in significant gains over stock+optimal tune. I just want to see the proof.

sranger

I edited my last post after a couple of replys so I wan to make one thing clear about my oinion ( I said opinion ) :

If there are no additional mods to the car other than Custom Tune and Intake, I do not feel their is much gain from the CAI over the stock with the carbontrap removed. Keep in mind that a custom tune will yeild about 50% more gains than a generic tune alone will add. Since most tunes that are sold with CAI are indeed custome tunes, the results are a little skewed in the CAI manufacturer's favor. If you apply a custom tune to the stock intake with the trap removed, there is even less of a difference in hp...

However, if you make additional modifications that can take advantage of the CAI's potential higher flow, it will help those other mods make more hp....

SC67Stang

I had my car baseline Dynoed before and after Xcal tune only.
My gain from the tune alone was 13 RWHP. all the rest of the car was still stock even the Carbon trap.
Several months later I also did a Dyno run before and after adding CAI.
My base run this time was with the previous tune only, second run was with
CAI installed and re-tune for air flow. I gained 23 RWHP from that.
From my experience the CAI does add HP however I did see one car that day that did the same change and only gained 2 RWHP.
Some cars don't seem to take to some of the mods as others do.

Steve

MTAS

Tell you what - I have a JLT CAI and Predator on the way. When I receive it, I will not install anything until I go to the dyno shop. I will be using the DTP tune and will run my car stock (minus hydrocarbon trap) again (already been dyno'd once), and then put the CAI and reflash, and run it again. This will most likely be around mid-May due to scheduling obligations on my part. I will definitely keep everyone posted.

onebadgsx

i had the xcalibrator 93 tune on my car prior to purchasing the JLT i made 279 at the wheels with stock intake and 15 mins. later after the install of the JLT i made 293 at the wheels.