Granatelli Turbo Install II
12/24/07, 08:17 PM
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12/24/07, 09:24 PM
#65
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As you start to turn the **** clockwise it opens the passageway with spring pressure. As soon as there is even a little spring pressure, it opens up the passageway leading to the top of the WG.
When slightly turned, it takes barely any boost to close it completely again. The more you turn it, the more boost it takes to counter the spring pressure to close it.
In other words, it is either opened or closed. As soon as there is any spring pressure, it opens it. When it closes is determined by how much boost is required to shut it again (further adjusted clockwise = more spring pressure keeping the BC open = more boost required to close it again).
12/24/07, 09:29 PM
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12/24/07, 09:40 PM
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12/30/07, 02:36 PM
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I got the nose back on today and went out to do some more testing.
I turned the boost controller down several turns and just guessed at a setting. I figured it would be too low and I would slowly work my way up.
I went out to a back road with long straights in between curves. I did the same test about 4 times going out, and 4 times coming back with the exact same result each time:
I was going 60 MPH in 4th gear. Without revving the engine up first, I would downshift to 3rd gear and punch it to WOT. Boost climbed quicker than it used to and was at 6psi by about 4000 RPM (without the boost controller, it took until just before 6500 RPM to get to 6psi). Even then, it took all it had to touch 6psi. JR said he saw it go to 6psi, but it had to be very slight.
Then, still at WOT, boost was maxed out by 4500 RPM with the needle on the boost gauge bouncing between 8 and 9psi. It might not have been moving the full 1psi between 8 and 9, but it was right there.
The car continued to pull extremely hard up and over 6000 RPM with boost between 8 and 9psi, but I had to get off of it because I was over 100 MPH with the next curve approaching quickly.
I'm assuming this is still not perfect, but it is A LOT better than it was. If I had to guess, here is what my boost curve looks like now (with the dashed line the way it was when JR drove it before the boost controller - and with the boost source hooked up incorrectly):
Attachment 37331 Sorry for the crude sketch.
If I mark where I have the boost controller set to, is it possible to dial it up slightly to have it come in quicker and keep the needle bouncing between 8 and 9psi? Or am I just going to move the max boost up?
I turned the boost controller down several turns and just guessed at a setting. I figured it would be too low and I would slowly work my way up.
I went out to a back road with long straights in between curves. I did the same test about 4 times going out, and 4 times coming back with the exact same result each time:
I was going 60 MPH in 4th gear. Without revving the engine up first, I would downshift to 3rd gear and punch it to WOT. Boost climbed quicker than it used to and was at 6psi by about 4000 RPM (without the boost controller, it took until just before 6500 RPM to get to 6psi). Even then, it took all it had to touch 6psi. JR said he saw it go to 6psi, but it had to be very slight.
Then, still at WOT, boost was maxed out by 4500 RPM with the needle on the boost gauge bouncing between 8 and 9psi. It might not have been moving the full 1psi between 8 and 9, but it was right there.
The car continued to pull extremely hard up and over 6000 RPM with boost between 8 and 9psi, but I had to get off of it because I was over 100 MPH with the next curve approaching quickly.
I'm assuming this is still not perfect, but it is A LOT better than it was. If I had to guess, here is what my boost curve looks like now (with the dashed line the way it was when JR drove it before the boost controller - and with the boost source hooked up incorrectly):
Attachment 37331 Sorry for the crude sketch.
If I mark where I have the boost controller set to, is it possible to dial it up slightly to have it come in quicker and keep the needle bouncing between 8 and 9psi? Or am I just going to move the max boost up?
12/30/07, 03:11 PM
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Nice Tom (I think I just missed your call) It sounds like you are on the right track here. If you adj the MBC you will see boost come in quicker but you will also see max boost also go up.
12/30/07, 03:41 PM
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I was just going to tell you on the phone everything I said above.
It was great seeing the needle stop right on the mark I wanted it to. The bouncing needle tells me that the MBC is doing just what it's supposed to do -- trying to hang out right on the adjusted setting. It gets to the setting and closes... boost drops off and it opens... it gets to the setting and closes... boost drops off and it opens... and over and over again very quickly.
I took the top off of my MBC again... there is a spring in there. When overcome by boost, it overpowers the force of the spring and fully closes the path to the top of the WG (the more compressed the spring is, the more boost is needed to over power it). There isn't anything leaking by all the time to allow it to creep. It was adjusted too high during my last tests. It's just like the BOV... once boost reaches the adjusted setting and closes the spring, it puts pressure on the seat to keep it closed.
12/31/07, 04:35 PM
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As you start to turn the **** clockwise it opens the passageway with spring pressure. As soon as there is even a little spring pressure, it opens up the passageway leading to the top of the WG.
When slightly turned, it takes barely any boost to close it completely again. The more you turn it, the more boost it takes to counter the spring pressure to close it.
In other words, it is either opened or closed. As soon as there is any spring pressure, it opens it. When it closes is determined by how much boost is required to shut it again (further adjusted clockwise = more spring pressure keeping the BC open = more boost required to close it again).
I turned the boost controller down several turns and just guessed at a setting. I figured it would be too low and I would slowly work my way up.
I went out to a back road with long straights in between curves. I did the same test about 4 times going out, and 4 times coming back with the exact same result each time:
I was going 60 MPH in 4th gear. Without revving the engine up first, I would downshift to 3rd gear and punch it to WOT. Boost climbed quicker than it used to and was at 6psi by about 4000 RPM (without the boost controller, it took until just before 6500 RPM to get to 6psi). Even then, it took all it had to touch 6psi. JR said he saw it go to 6psi, but it had to be very slight.
Then, still at WOT, boost was maxed out by 4500 RPM with the needle on the boost gauge bouncing between 8 and 9psi. It might not have been moving the full 1psi between 8 and 9, but it was right there.
The car continued to pull extremely hard up and over 6000 RPM with boost between 8 and 9psi, but I had to get off of it because I was over 100 MPH with the next curve approaching quickly.
I'm assuming this is still not perfect, but it is A LOT better than it was. If I had to guess, here is what my boost curve looks like now (with the dashed line the way it was when JR drove it before the boost controller - and with the boost source hooked up incorrectly):
Attachment 37331 Sorry for the crude sketch.
If I mark where I have the boost controller set to, is it possible to dial it up slightly to have it come in quicker and keep the needle bouncing between 8 and 9psi? Or am I just going to move the max boost up?
I was just going to tell you on the phone everything I said above.
It was great seeing the needle stop right on the mark I wanted it to. The bouncing needle tells me that the MBC is doing just what it's supposed to do -- trying to hang out right on the adjusted setting. It gets to the setting and closes... boost drops off and it opens... it gets to the setting and closes... boost drops off and it opens... and over and over again very quickly.
I took the top off of my MBC again... there is a spring in there. When overcome by boost, it overpowers the force of the spring and fully closes the path to the top of the WG (the more compressed the spring is, the more boost is needed to over power it). There isn't anything leaking by all the time to allow it to creep. It was adjusted too high during my last tests. It's just like the BOV... once boost reaches the adjusted setting and closes the spring, it puts pressure on the seat to keep it closed.
Not sure if anyone wants me to explain what you guys are wagering? I PM’d Tom so I will let him decipher or should I say filter from what I said and think about all this. I can say Tom said he was happy from day 1, them after he dyno’d he still liked the way the car felt but did not like the dyno numbers. All along I agreed that something needed to be done. It is hard to be blamed for all the “issues†imaginary or not, but not be aloud to do much about it. What I learned from this experience is that rather then service Tom; I had to service this and the original thread and all its readers and commenters. Not much credit is given from my meeting up with Tom while in Florida and trying to get it dyno’d on the spot. Here is a funky example: a person goes to the doctor and says Dr. I have a problem that needs fixing and I don’t know how to do it. Dr. says well I will do this, this and that and then we will see how that fixes it. Then the patient says “NO – I want you to fix it my way and if you don’t or can’t then I will hold you responsible for all that goes wrong. –
I always wanted to help but I did not want to be told HOW I HAD TO HELP. As I said Tom is a super guy and much more then less, an easy guy to deal with. However, way too many chefs got in this kitchen. If you all think the boost controller does all the work then I now pose a question to you guys.
1. What happens if Tom takes out his waste gate spring and installs a weaker one? Will that mean the MBC will work harder, not as hard or makes no difference?
2. What happens if Tom takes out his waste gate spring and installs a much stiffer one? Will that mean the MBC will work harder, not as hard or makes no difference? Also what effect will the spring have on the way the boost needle bounces?
12/31/07, 05:57 PM
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If you tell me what YOU are referring too Ill tell ya what we were wagering.
**Edited**
Again what did have to compare too? A stock car? Please.....
Not even going to touch this....
This may be the saddest of all, If that’s really all you got out of this then folks look for a thread on another board near you soon. This is a Mustang Forum where enthusiast gather to share information and HELP other members. And all those "readers and commenters" could have been future GMS customers (and stll may be) so the more that interact with you the better right?
Tom is thankful for that, but what did you diagnose there?
If the patient doesn’t like the first form of treatment its the doctors responsibility to find the next best way of fixing the problem. Thank god you aren’t a doctor because your pouting and defensive responses would not be good.
Asylin is that you?? (that’s my 4yr old niece) How high and mighty does that sound.? I’ve got to go but Ill get to the rest in a bit.
As I said Tom is a super guy and much more then less, an easy guy to deal with. However, way too many chefs got in this kitchen. If you all think the boost controller does all the work then I now pose a question to you guys.
1. What happens if Tom takes out his waste gate spring and installs a weaker one? Will that mean the MBC will work harder, not as hard or makes no difference?
2. What happens if Tom takes out his waste gate spring and installs a much stiffer one? Will that mean the MBC will work harder, not as hard or makes no difference? Also what effect will the spring have on the way the boost needle bounces?
[/quote]
Here is a funky example: a person goes to the doctor and says Dr. I have a problem that needs fixing and I don’t know how to do it. Dr. says well I will do this, this and that and then we will see how that fixes it. Then the patient says “NO – I want you to fix it my way and if you don’t or can’t then I will hold you responsible for all that goes wrong. –
As I said Tom is a super guy and much more then less, an easy guy to deal with. However, way too many chefs got in this kitchen. If you all think the boost controller does all the work then I now pose a question to you guys.
1. What happens if Tom takes out his waste gate spring and installs a weaker one? Will that mean the MBC will work harder, not as hard or makes no difference?
2. What happens if Tom takes out his waste gate spring and installs a much stiffer one? Will that mean the MBC will work harder, not as hard or makes no difference? Also what effect will the spring have on the way the boost needle bounces?
[/quote]
12/31/07, 06:05 PM
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Not sure if anyone wants me to explain what you guys are wagering? I PM’d Tom so I will let him decipher or should I say filter from what I said and think about all this. I can say Tom said he was happy from day 1, them after he dyno’d he still liked the way the car felt but did not like the dyno numbers. All along I agreed that something needed to be done. It is hard to be blamed for all the “issues†imaginary or not, but not be aloud to do much about it. What I learned from this experience is that rather then service Tom; I had to service this and the original thread and all its readers and commenters. Not much credit is given from my meeting up with Tom while in Florida and trying to get it dyno’d on the spot. Here is a funky example: a person goes to the doctor and says Dr. I have a problem that needs fixing and I don’t know how to do it. Dr. says well I will do this, this and that and then we will see how that fixes it. Then the patient says “NO – I want you to fix it my way and if you don’t or can’t then I will hold you responsible for all that goes wrong. –
I always wanted to help but I did not want to be told HOW I HAD TO HELP. As I said Tom is a super guy and much more then less, an easy guy to deal with. However, way too many chefs got in this kitchen. If you all think the boost controller does all the work then I now pose a question to you guys.
1. What happens if Tom takes out his waste gate spring and installs a weaker one? Will that mean the MBC will work harder, not as hard or makes no difference?
2. What happens if Tom takes out his waste gate spring and installs a much stiffer one? Will that mean the MBC will work harder, not as hard or makes no difference? Also what effect will the spring have on the way the boost needle bounces?
12/31/07, 07:19 PM
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Looks like were headed towards "Granatelli Turbo Install III".
JR-I think you need to find someone to handle your internet dealings for you. It looks like you mean well but the way you think these through in your head and what comes out seem to be way different or atleast I hope that's the case. It's seems your almost better off staying in contact with Tom and not posting at all.
FYI-I have two of your products (Swaybar Delete and A-arm support) which I got on sale from you guys for $60 shipped. So I'm by no means a "GMS hater".
Happy New Year's everyone.
JR-I think you need to find someone to handle your internet dealings for you. It looks like you mean well but the way you think these through in your head and what comes out seem to be way different or atleast I hope that's the case. It's seems your almost better off staying in contact with Tom and not posting at all.
FYI-I have two of your products (Swaybar Delete and A-arm support) which I got on sale from you guys for $60 shipped. So I'm by no means a "GMS hater".
Happy New Year's everyone.
12/31/07, 07:30 PM
#76
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I know Tom wants to do it himself and would have it no other way,but how long is/does he have to have his car not operating at its full capacity?All the time fussing could have been spent w/his wife and family. i know I'm in the minority,but I would have paid a little(lot) more and would have had it done professionally. But thats just me. JR seems like he wants to help but I'll agree w /leo and say he doesn't seem to have proper forum etiquette. Stick w/ PM's
12/31/07, 09:22 PM
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It's amazingly smooth and streetable... and very powerful. Is it perfect? I guess not from what I'm hearing.
I bet right now on a Dyno Jet I would be way over 400 RWHP and RWTQ (I'll find out soon!).
The MBC may be Tylenol, but a stronger spring in the WG may be the cure.
JR and I have been dealing in PMs. People need to see that he IS trying to figure out the solution. I may be a little stubborn to take everything off and send it back to him because I refuse to believe that each component is faulty. He is sending me an 8psi Tial WG spring to see what happens.
I would think this would move my graph to the left and boost would be higher at any given RPM until the max of 8 psi is hit. The stronger spring may help with the boost gauge needle bouncing at the max psi setting, too.
1/1/08, 09:55 AM
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Obviously we all hope you're right and it is something as simple as a weak spring. Just keep in mind that in the original thread JR said you should have max boost by 3600rpm. If that is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, you will have MASSIVE tire-frying midrange torque a la turbo05gt. I would just hate to see you settle for less than what you should.
1/1/08, 10:35 AM
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Obviously we all hope you're right and it is something as simple as a weak spring. Just keep in mind that in the original thread JR said you should have max boost by 3600rpm. If that is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, you will have MASSIVE tire-frying midrange torque a la turbo05gt. I would just hate to see you settle for less than what you should.
I'm not sure how big of a difference a stiffer spring will make. Right now, I'm observing that I'm at 6psi by 4000rpm (but it might be 3900 - it's just hard to watch everything at once).
If a stiffer spring takes me to 8psi by 3900 or 4000rpm, that will really improve the torque.
Maybe the last 300 or 400rpm spooling delay is from the back pressure of my chambered Flowmasters? With the cats removed and a straight-through type muffler, I might be at max psi by 3600rpm.
That's something we haven't touched on before and might be the reason why the same kit, with the same turbo, may act differently on a car with a different exhaust (and/or on a lighter coupe).
1/1/08, 12:22 PM
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Your kit came with hi-flow cats as I recall, right? On my Supra I ran a single Random Technology metallic substrate cat that was so free flowing you could look through it end to end and read a newspaper. That car made well over 500 rwhp with or without it. Hopefully yours are similar. As far as your Flowmasters go, I doubt they are much of a factor at the low boost pressures you're running. It is interesting that the STS remote-mounted turbo systems eliminate the mufflers altogether. The turbo itself, especially if coupled with cats, does a pretty good job muffling the noise. Re: convertible vs. coupe, a heavier car puts more load on the engine so, if anything, your turbo should spool a hair faster. One more point about mechanical boost controllers-it is common to see higher boost in the higher gears when there is more load on the engine. Therefore it is advisable to set the boost in as high a gear as practicable, which you are already doing. I just thought I'd mention it since I've had the experience of dialing in 12 psi in town in 2nd gear, only to find myself passing someone on the open road and seeing my boost gauge shoot past 15.