FINALLY PICKED UP CAR AFTER NEW HEADS & CAMS (Dyno #'s inside)
5/21/10 | 08:14 PM
#1
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FINALLY PICKED UP CAR AFTER NEW HEADS & CAMS (Dyno #'s inside)
FINALLY PICKED UP THE CAR TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!! IT IS AWESOME, SOUNDS AWESOME, AND PULLS HARD....
I will post up some videos here in the next few days... But on a
MD:
364rwhp/330rwtq
DynoJet:
416rwhp/364rwtq
After some fine tuning and small tweaks the final numbers are in...and these are SAE numbers.
These Numbers are Before and After the Heads & Cams...
Roughly 65rwhp and 30rwtq (Mustang Dyno #'s) gains with cnc heads, stock valve size, and stage 2 cams. Stock throttle body and cats on this sucker too!!
I will post up some videos here in the next few days... But on a
MD:
364rwhp/330rwtq
DynoJet:
416rwhp/364rwtq
After some fine tuning and small tweaks the final numbers are in...and these are SAE numbers.
These Numbers are Before and After the Heads & Cams...
Roughly 65rwhp and 30rwtq (Mustang Dyno #'s) gains with cnc heads, stock valve size, and stage 2 cams. Stock throttle body and cats on this sucker too!!
Last edited by PIKE2244; 5/21/10 at 08:22 PM.
5/21/10 | 09:04 PM
#5
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So I have to say I was shocked w/ the the Dynojet numbers but previously when I was running intake, tune, UDP's I had a RWHP number of 304 SAE Corrected with addition of Cat Back / LT Headers / Catted H DynoJet RWHP was at 338 So I don't know how reliable it is.... There are a few more mods...
5/22/10 | 05:40 AM
#7
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Joined: February 15, 2005
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Congratulations on getting the car back ready to rock!
The dynojet numbers seem a bit high compared to others with similar mods (I agree with ~370hp or so), but you have the sheet in hand and it is what it is.
I'd like to ask something else though: was this tuned using SCT software? Note the dip at 4500rpm. This is a known flaw in SCT's VCT retard tables, and you need to 0 them out between 4500-5200rpm, then gradually increase the values back. That will fatten up torque a bit, and these changes took me from 12.4 to 12.1 instantly when the values were changed trackside by my tuner. I truly believe with a new clutch I'd have easily been in the 11s already. And that's with stock heads! With your free breathing heads, you might have 11.8s in there.
Do you have plans to race the car?
The dynojet numbers seem a bit high compared to others with similar mods (I agree with ~370hp or so), but you have the sheet in hand and it is what it is.
I'd like to ask something else though: was this tuned using SCT software? Note the dip at 4500rpm. This is a known flaw in SCT's VCT retard tables, and you need to 0 them out between 4500-5200rpm, then gradually increase the values back. That will fatten up torque a bit, and these changes took me from 12.4 to 12.1 instantly when the values were changed trackside by my tuner. I truly believe with a new clutch I'd have easily been in the 11s already. And that's with stock heads! With your free breathing heads, you might have 11.8s in there.
Do you have plans to race the car?
5/22/10 | 07:08 AM
#8
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Wow, Thanks I had no idea what the issue w/ that pothole around 4500 was. And yes obviously by spotting that you knew right away what software I was using. Do you have any idea why it happens??? BTW you better believe I'm gonna be at the track as fast as humanly possible.
5/22/10 | 07:26 AM
#9
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I'm not completely sure on the "why", but it was first noticed by two very well known tuners in this country. When tuning with a Diablosport Predator, they noticed that dip didn't occur, only in SCT tunes. Probably in the base calibration. Either way, that dip can be adjusted now that you know what it is, and it really makes a big difference with aftermarket cams (obviously, the more aggressive the cam the better). Here's a link to Ford's hot rod cam install, and note the vct cam retard adjustments they worked out for that particular cam profile. Different values, but same principle: http://www.fordracingparts.com/downl...tM-6550-3v.pdf
Here's my dynosheet BEFORE we changed the table values--Ouch! One day I'll go back and have it really tuned in tight to fill in that dip at 3500rpm (yours has the same dip):
Here's my dynosheet BEFORE we changed the table values--Ouch! One day I'll go back and have it really tuned in tight to fill in that dip at 3500rpm (yours has the same dip):
Last edited by jwgroovin; 5/22/10 at 07:29 AM.
5/22/10 | 04:23 PM
#10
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So I was talking with my tuner and this is what he said:
"There is no VCT control anymore and we do not use SCT files. I have datalogs of engine volumetric efficiency and it is the nature of the head cam combo."
And to be honest after doing a little bit of research I found that considering volumetric efficiency it sounds about right and a common issue....
"There is no VCT control anymore and we do not use SCT files. I have datalogs of engine volumetric efficiency and it is the nature of the head cam combo."
And to be honest after doing a little bit of research I found that considering volumetric efficiency it sounds about right and a common issue....
Last edited by PIKE2244; 5/22/10 at 04:25 PM.
5/22/10 | 04:54 PM
#12
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From: State of Jefferson Mountains USA
Yeah I thought the tuners usually limited the VCT rather than eliminate it completely.
Ford 4.6L 3-Valve Cam Phaser Limiter Kit
Livernois Motorsports is proud to introduce another exciting new product for the Ford 3-Valve 4.6 modular engine. With the ever evolving technology and development of new camshaft and valvetrain components for the 3-Valve modular engine, the need for improvements to the factory Ford VCT system has become a hot topic. Livernois was the first in the market with an economical and readily available fix for the problems that plagued the factory Ford VCT system. We introduced the solid fixed lockout kit which locks out the factory phaser and eliminates the failures & noise problems associated with the cam phasers, thus allowing the use of aftermarket cam and spring profiles without fear of failure of the factory cam phaser. Now, we have taken this one step further and are proud to introduce our new phaser lockout limiter kit.
The original cam lockouts were built with the goal of preventing failure of the cam phaser. They do an excellent job of this and cure cam phaser issues, however they do limit the engines ability to retard the cam timing and as a result, cause a small loss in power at high RPM. In most cases we are talking 10-20HP depending on the application. That loss in power was worth it, given the gain from using aftermarket springs and cams was double that number. Not to mention, with power adders vehicles making 600+ RWHP, the loss of 10-20 HP was small for the gain in durability and ultimate assurance that the cam phaser would not fail causing possible engine failure.
The next step in this evolution comes with this new limiting version of the same lockout. Simple in design and requiring no special tools to install, the limiting lockouts allow for the phaser to retard the camshaft still but limit its travel to only 20 degrees maximum. In most cases max power can be found in the 8-14 degree range of retard, so by still allowing up to 20 degrees of camshaft retard, the ability to get maximum power from cam phasing is available. The limiter mechanically locks after 20 degrees and prevents any further movement. This allows for use of larger camshafts with more lift and duration and prevents piston to valve issues. The other benefit that goes with the limiter is that it prevents the noise and durability issue from becoming a factor. By reducing the volume of oil and limiting the total travel rotation of the phaser the issues with noise and failure of the phaser are eliminated.
http://www.detroitspeedshops.com/product.phtml?p=1884
Enlarge image
Enlarge image
Ford 4.6L 3-Valve Cam Phaser Limiter Kit
Livernois Motorsports is proud to introduce another exciting new product for the Ford 3-Valve 4.6 modular engine. With the ever evolving technology and development of new camshaft and valvetrain components for the 3-Valve modular engine, the need for improvements to the factory Ford VCT system has become a hot topic. Livernois was the first in the market with an economical and readily available fix for the problems that plagued the factory Ford VCT system. We introduced the solid fixed lockout kit which locks out the factory phaser and eliminates the failures & noise problems associated with the cam phasers, thus allowing the use of aftermarket cam and spring profiles without fear of failure of the factory cam phaser. Now, we have taken this one step further and are proud to introduce our new phaser lockout limiter kit.
The original cam lockouts were built with the goal of preventing failure of the cam phaser. They do an excellent job of this and cure cam phaser issues, however they do limit the engines ability to retard the cam timing and as a result, cause a small loss in power at high RPM. In most cases we are talking 10-20HP depending on the application. That loss in power was worth it, given the gain from using aftermarket springs and cams was double that number. Not to mention, with power adders vehicles making 600+ RWHP, the loss of 10-20 HP was small for the gain in durability and ultimate assurance that the cam phaser would not fail causing possible engine failure.
The next step in this evolution comes with this new limiting version of the same lockout. Simple in design and requiring no special tools to install, the limiting lockouts allow for the phaser to retard the camshaft still but limit its travel to only 20 degrees maximum. In most cases max power can be found in the 8-14 degree range of retard, so by still allowing up to 20 degrees of camshaft retard, the ability to get maximum power from cam phasing is available. The limiter mechanically locks after 20 degrees and prevents any further movement. This allows for use of larger camshafts with more lift and duration and prevents piston to valve issues. The other benefit that goes with the limiter is that it prevents the noise and durability issue from becoming a factor. By reducing the volume of oil and limiting the total travel rotation of the phaser the issues with noise and failure of the phaser are eliminated.
http://www.detroitspeedshops.com/product.phtml?p=1884
)
Enlarge image
)
Enlarge image
Last edited by cdynaco; 5/22/10 at 04:59 PM.
5/22/10 | 06:00 PM
#14
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Cobra Member
Joined: August 1, 2005
Posts: 1,329
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Yeah I thought the tuners usually limited the VCT rather than eliminate it completely.
Ford 4.6L 3-Valve Cam Phaser Limiter Kit
Livernois Motorsports is proud to introduce another exciting new product for the Ford 3-Valve 4.6 modular engine. With the ever evolving technology and development of new camshaft and valvetrain components for the 3-Valve modular engine, the need for improvements to the factory Ford VCT system has become a hot topic. Livernois was the first in the market with an economical and readily available fix for the problems that plagued the factory Ford VCT system. We introduced the solid fixed lockout kit which locks out the factory phaser and eliminates the failures & noise problems associated with the cam phasers, thus allowing the use of aftermarket cam and spring profiles without fear of failure of the factory cam phaser. Now, we have taken this one step further and are proud to introduce our new phaser lockout limiter kit.
The original cam lockouts were built with the goal of preventing failure of the cam phaser. They do an excellent job of this and cure cam phaser issues, however they do limit the engines ability to retard the cam timing and as a result, cause a small loss in power at high RPM. In most cases we are talking 10-20HP depending on the application. That loss in power was worth it, given the gain from using aftermarket springs and cams was double that number. Not to mention, with power adders vehicles making 600+ RWHP, the loss of 10-20 HP was small for the gain in durability and ultimate assurance that the cam phaser would not fail causing possible engine failure.
The next step in this evolution comes with this new limiting version of the same lockout. Simple in design and requiring no special tools to install, the limiting lockouts allow for the phaser to retard the camshaft still but limit its travel to only 20 degrees maximum. In most cases max power can be found in the 8-14 degree range of retard, so by still allowing up to 20 degrees of camshaft retard, the ability to get maximum power from cam phasing is available. The limiter mechanically locks after 20 degrees and prevents any further movement. This allows for use of larger camshafts with more lift and duration and prevents piston to valve issues. The other benefit that goes with the limiter is that it prevents the noise and durability issue from becoming a factor. By reducing the volume of oil and limiting the total travel rotation of the phaser the issues with noise and failure of the phaser are eliminated.
http://www.detroitspeedshops.com/product.phtml?p=1884
Enlarge image
Enlarge image
Ford 4.6L 3-Valve Cam Phaser Limiter Kit
Livernois Motorsports is proud to introduce another exciting new product for the Ford 3-Valve 4.6 modular engine. With the ever evolving technology and development of new camshaft and valvetrain components for the 3-Valve modular engine, the need for improvements to the factory Ford VCT system has become a hot topic. Livernois was the first in the market with an economical and readily available fix for the problems that plagued the factory Ford VCT system. We introduced the solid fixed lockout kit which locks out the factory phaser and eliminates the failures & noise problems associated with the cam phasers, thus allowing the use of aftermarket cam and spring profiles without fear of failure of the factory cam phaser. Now, we have taken this one step further and are proud to introduce our new phaser lockout limiter kit.
The original cam lockouts were built with the goal of preventing failure of the cam phaser. They do an excellent job of this and cure cam phaser issues, however they do limit the engines ability to retard the cam timing and as a result, cause a small loss in power at high RPM. In most cases we are talking 10-20HP depending on the application. That loss in power was worth it, given the gain from using aftermarket springs and cams was double that number. Not to mention, with power adders vehicles making 600+ RWHP, the loss of 10-20 HP was small for the gain in durability and ultimate assurance that the cam phaser would not fail causing possible engine failure.
The next step in this evolution comes with this new limiting version of the same lockout. Simple in design and requiring no special tools to install, the limiting lockouts allow for the phaser to retard the camshaft still but limit its travel to only 20 degrees maximum. In most cases max power can be found in the 8-14 degree range of retard, so by still allowing up to 20 degrees of camshaft retard, the ability to get maximum power from cam phasing is available. The limiter mechanically locks after 20 degrees and prevents any further movement. This allows for use of larger camshafts with more lift and duration and prevents piston to valve issues. The other benefit that goes with the limiter is that it prevents the noise and durability issue from becoming a factor. By reducing the volume of oil and limiting the total travel rotation of the phaser the issues with noise and failure of the phaser are eliminated.
http://www.detroitspeedshops.com/product.phtml?p=1884
Enlarge image
Enlarge image
5/22/10 | 07:39 PM
#16
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Joined: February 15, 2005
Posts: 639
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No sarcasm intended. I just provided some information regarding my experience with aftermarket cams, VCT and a flaw in the SCT software, and one way to get around it. The changes to my tune done right on the track made a tremendous difference in the way my car responded. It of course assumes that you have VCT fully engaged or at least limited (mine have the Comp limiters). If it's locked out, then what I discussed doesn't apply. Your statement "There is no VCT control anymore and we do not use SCT files." led me to believe you are using lockouts and another software package. Soooooo, "Ok, sure..." applies... Not sure what else to say... :-)
It's all good brother, but it looks like we're comparing apples to oranges so what I've said may not apply to your package...
It's all good brother, but it looks like we're comparing apples to oranges so what I've said may not apply to your package...
5/23/10 | 11:15 AM
#19
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No sarcasm intended. I just provided some information regarding my experience with aftermarket cams, VCT and a flaw in the SCT software, and one way to get around it. The changes to my tune done right on the track made a tremendous difference in the way my car responded. It of course assumes that you have VCT fully engaged or at least limited (mine have the Comp limiters). If it's locked out, then what I discussed doesn't apply. Your statement "There is no VCT control anymore and we do not use SCT files." led me to believe you are using lockouts and another software package. Soooooo, "Ok, sure..." applies... Not sure what else to say... :-)
It's all good brother, but it looks like we're comparing apples to oranges so what I've said may not apply to your package...
It's all good brother, but it looks like we're comparing apples to oranges so what I've said may not apply to your package...
Hahaha, I feel you are right and at first I wasn't following what you were saying but I completely follow now; we are on the same page now...
