Educate me on CAIs and MAFs
8/11/07, 01:59 PM
#41
Legacy TMS Member
We've rehashed this a billion times.
Upstream of the MAF is exactly what it means: upstream of the MAF (anything ahead of the MAF sensor). Downstream of the MAF would include the inlet tube, throttle body, etc...
Drilling a hole into the airbox would essentially skew the air transfer function. Would drilling a 3/8" hole into the box cause pinging? Probably not. Would gutting out the box cause pinging? Quite possibly. There is more air reaching the MAF sensor than before and the adaptive learning works off of the base air transfer function. It can adapt to a certain degree, and it's basically like depending on the knock sensor while tuning the ignition tables. You must correct the air transfer function so the PCM can make more accurate and faster predictions/changes. Otherwise it over-corrects, then under-corrects, over-corrects, etc...
Adaptive learning is only an instrument for adapting to changes in the environment and for paper filters that slowly clog up. It doesn't perform miracles by magically adapting perfectly to a gutted airbox or 100mm conical filter.
If you place the MAF sensor very close to the throttle body, you will also need a tune because it changes how the air is flowing through the MAF sensor which is one of the most important sensors since it can affect a lot of things, especially if you have an automatic transmission.
I've heard a lot of BS from vendors claiming "no tune is needed". Their justification is that the adaptive learning will make things better, cure cancer, solve world poverty, etc... The first thing you do when tuning a car is to shut off the adaptive learning and get the air transfer function dead-on. If you want to play cowboy, go right ahead and stick with the stock tune and aftermarket CAI/intake mods. A canned tune is better than no tune, but a proper dynotune is what you really want, even with the stock air intake! The OEM has a tendency to make the AFR rich at WOT to prevent an excessively lean condition which can lead to parts failures. Correcting this can give you new ponies for the cost of a dynotune.
Upstream of the MAF is exactly what it means: upstream of the MAF (anything ahead of the MAF sensor). Downstream of the MAF would include the inlet tube, throttle body, etc...
Drilling a hole into the airbox would essentially skew the air transfer function. Would drilling a 3/8" hole into the box cause pinging? Probably not. Would gutting out the box cause pinging? Quite possibly. There is more air reaching the MAF sensor than before and the adaptive learning works off of the base air transfer function. It can adapt to a certain degree, and it's basically like depending on the knock sensor while tuning the ignition tables. You must correct the air transfer function so the PCM can make more accurate and faster predictions/changes. Otherwise it over-corrects, then under-corrects, over-corrects, etc...
Adaptive learning is only an instrument for adapting to changes in the environment and for paper filters that slowly clog up. It doesn't perform miracles by magically adapting perfectly to a gutted airbox or 100mm conical filter.
If you place the MAF sensor very close to the throttle body, you will also need a tune because it changes how the air is flowing through the MAF sensor which is one of the most important sensors since it can affect a lot of things, especially if you have an automatic transmission.
I've heard a lot of BS from vendors claiming "no tune is needed". Their justification is that the adaptive learning will make things better, cure cancer, solve world poverty, etc... The first thing you do when tuning a car is to shut off the adaptive learning and get the air transfer function dead-on. If you want to play cowboy, go right ahead and stick with the stock tune and aftermarket CAI/intake mods. A canned tune is better than no tune, but a proper dynotune is what you really want, even with the stock air intake! The OEM has a tendency to make the AFR rich at WOT to prevent an excessively lean condition which can lead to parts failures. Correcting this can give you new ponies for the cost of a dynotune.
8/11/07, 02:50 PM
#42
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
We've rehashed this a billion times.
Upstream of the MAF is exactly what it means: upstream of the MAF (anything ahead of the MAF sensor). Downstream of the MAF would include the inlet tube, throttle body, etc...
Drilling a hole into the airbox would essentially skew the air transfer function. Would drilling a 3/8" hole into the box cause pinging? Probably not. Would gutting out the box cause pinging? Quite possibly. There is more air reaching the MAF sensor than before and the adaptive learning works off of the base air transfer function. It can adapt to a certain degree, and it's basically like depending on the knock sensor while tuning the ignition tables. You must correct the air transfer function so the PCM can make more accurate and faster predictions/changes. Otherwise it over-corrects, then under-corrects, over-corrects, etc...
Adaptive learning is only an instrument for adapting to changes in the environment and for paper filters that slowly clog up. It doesn't perform miracles by magically adapting perfectly to a gutted airbox or 100mm conical filter.
If you place the MAF sensor very close to the throttle body, you will also need a tune because it changes how the air is flowing through the MAF sensor which is one of the most important sensors since it can affect a lot of things, especially if you have an automatic transmission.
I've heard a lot of BS from vendors claiming "no tune is needed". Their justification is that the adaptive learning will make things better, cure cancer, solve world poverty, etc... The first thing you do when tuning a car is to shut off the adaptive learning and get the air transfer function dead-on. If you want to play cowboy, go right ahead and stick with the stock tune and aftermarket CAI/intake mods. A canned tune is better than no tune, but a proper dynotune is what you really want, even with the stock air intake! The OEM has a tendency to make the AFR rich at WOT to prevent an excessively lean condition which can lead to parts failures. Correcting this can give you new ponies for the cost of a dynotune.
Upstream of the MAF is exactly what it means: upstream of the MAF (anything ahead of the MAF sensor). Downstream of the MAF would include the inlet tube, throttle body, etc...
Drilling a hole into the airbox would essentially skew the air transfer function. Would drilling a 3/8" hole into the box cause pinging? Probably not. Would gutting out the box cause pinging? Quite possibly. There is more air reaching the MAF sensor than before and the adaptive learning works off of the base air transfer function. It can adapt to a certain degree, and it's basically like depending on the knock sensor while tuning the ignition tables. You must correct the air transfer function so the PCM can make more accurate and faster predictions/changes. Otherwise it over-corrects, then under-corrects, over-corrects, etc...
Adaptive learning is only an instrument for adapting to changes in the environment and for paper filters that slowly clog up. It doesn't perform miracles by magically adapting perfectly to a gutted airbox or 100mm conical filter.
If you place the MAF sensor very close to the throttle body, you will also need a tune because it changes how the air is flowing through the MAF sensor which is one of the most important sensors since it can affect a lot of things, especially if you have an automatic transmission.
I've heard a lot of BS from vendors claiming "no tune is needed". Their justification is that the adaptive learning will make things better, cure cancer, solve world poverty, etc... The first thing you do when tuning a car is to shut off the adaptive learning and get the air transfer function dead-on. If you want to play cowboy, go right ahead and stick with the stock tune and aftermarket CAI/intake mods. A canned tune is better than no tune, but a proper dynotune is what you really want, even with the stock air intake! The OEM has a tendency to make the AFR rich at WOT to prevent an excessively lean condition which can lead to parts failures. Correcting this can give you new ponies for the cost of a dynotune.
8/11/07, 03:08 PM
#43
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
And FYI ! the purpose of these forums, are designed for enthusisats who are looking for both support and feedback, concerning MODIFYING their Stang's..That being said ! if us enthusiasts, had no intentions of modifying our cars and chose to remain stock ? then, there would be no purpose behind these forums, to begin with..Therefore ! if you chose to keep you're car stock ? then fine, that's entirely you're business..However ! that doesn't give you the right to hijack these threads, and force you're opinions down everybody's throat either 
8/11/07, 03:13 PM
#44
Legacy TMS Member
I recommend keeping it stock, but if you wish to modify the air intake, get a dynotune. Whether it is the WMS, K&N, C&L Racer, or a GT500 retrofit, get a dynotune because it isn't stock. Do not listen to the vendor's claims that it doesn't require a tune. An excessively lean condition may cause detonation and engine component/emission failure.
If you even bothered to read any of my posts, you would have understood this. Instead, you bombard the thread with incorrect punctuation, accusations, conjecture, and opinionated comparisons. This isn't the first time you have done this in a MAF-related discussion here at TMS.
If you even bothered to read any of my posts, you would have understood this. Instead, you bombard the thread with incorrect punctuation, accusations, conjecture, and opinionated comparisons. This isn't the first time you have done this in a MAF-related discussion here at TMS.
8/11/07, 04:26 PM
#45
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
I recommend keeping it stock, but if you wish to modify the air intake, get a dynotune. Whether it is the WMS, K&N, C&L Racer, or a GT500 retrofit, get a dynotune because it isn't stock. Do not listen to the vendor's claims that it doesn't require a tune. An excessively lean condition may cause detonation and engine component/emission failure.
If you even bothered to read any of my posts, you would have understood this. Instead, you bombard the thread with incorrect punctuation, accusations, conjecture, and opinionated comparisons. This isn't the first time you have done this in a MAF-related discussion here at TMS.
If you even bothered to read any of my posts, you would have understood this. Instead, you bombard the thread with incorrect punctuation, accusations, conjecture, and opinionated comparisons. This isn't the first time you have done this in a MAF-related discussion here at TMS.
8/11/07, 04:47 PM
#46
WELL EXCUSE ME PROFESSOR, FOR MY LACK OF UNDERSTANDING YOU'RE ADVANCED TERMINOLOGY ! AND PERHAPS IF YOU HAD BOTHERED TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS IN A DIRECT MANNER TO BEGIN WITH ? THERE WOULDN'T BE THE NEED FOR HAVING TO RE-HASH THIS A BILLION TIMES, NOW WOULD THERE ? AND SPEAKING OF WHICH ! YOU STILL HAVE NOT PROVIDED A DIRECT ANSWER..THEREFORE, I'LL ASK ONCE AGAIN..IF MODIFYING THE AIRBOX, WILL CHANGE THE AIR TRANSFER FUNCTION ? THEN EXPLAIN HOW BOTH THE AIRAID/ROUSH CAI AND C&L INTAKES WITH THEIR NO TUNE INSERTS ! DO NOT REQUIRE ANY ADDITIONAL TUNING ??? AS ALSO WITH THE K&N AIRCHARGER, AEM BRUTE FORCE, AND FINALLY THE 80MM WMS, IN WHICH BTW RELOCATES THE MAF SENSOR, DIRECTLY NEXT TO THE THROTTLE BODY !
8/11/07, 05:21 PM
#47
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
8/12/07, 12:47 PM
#48
Team Mustang Source
I disagree with Metroplex on this one. As long as the tube diameter where the MAF is located remains the same, the MAF will read correctly, and the engine will get the proper air/fuel mixture.
The problem lies in making the diameter bigger or smaller, then the MAF will not read correctly. This is why you need a tune when you get an aftermarket CAI. The diameter is larger on those, therefore needing a tune.
The problem lies in making the diameter bigger or smaller, then the MAF will not read correctly. This is why you need a tune when you get an aftermarket CAI. The diameter is larger on those, therefore needing a tune.
8/12/07, 01:33 PM
#49
Legacy TMS Member
I disagree with Metroplex on this one. As long as the tube diameter where the MAF is located remains the same, the MAF will read correctly, and the engine will get the proper air/fuel mixture.
The problem lies in making the diameter bigger or smaller, then the MAF will not read correctly. This is why you need a tune when you get an aftermarket CAI. The diameter is larger on those, therefore needing a tune.
The problem lies in making the diameter bigger or smaller, then the MAF will not read correctly. This is why you need a tune when you get an aftermarket CAI. The diameter is larger on those, therefore needing a tune.
This has been my point all along. 
I have spoken to powertrain engineers from the Big 3 and these guys take their jobs seriously. I asked a few about drilling extra drain holes in the bottom of the box just for releasing dust/dirt/water, and they said NOT to do this because it can affect the air transfer function. A better way to explain this is to compare the amount of air that can flow through the MAF sensor with nothing upstream of the MAF sensor, and with an airbox + filter in the path. It's obvious that the bare sensor setup will be less restrictive since you are not trying to squeeze air through a snorkle, paper airfilter, route it through the airbox lid, etc... The adaptive learning can try to work with this change in airflow at closed loop, but at WOT (open loop mode), the PCM reverts back to the base air transfer function! This is why it is an absolute must to have the air transfer function corrected for your air intake setup and also why it is useful to have a bonestock vehicle dynotuned. The adaptive learning is not functional in open loop mode (the mode you are in when you are WOT, drag racing, etc...)
As for Kevinb, he still thinks HIDs are better because of the color temperature, which is definitely untrue (we all know that ricer blue bulbs aren't better, but the color temperature is tweaked). A properly designed halogen system that puts out as much candela as a HID headlight is going to work just as good regardless of its color temperature within selective yellow in SAE J578c. The human brain and eyes perceive white light differently from yellow light. Some optics experts think that white light is better, some think that yellow light is better. This has been debated for almost as long as synthetic vs non-synthetic engine oil. Just give me LEDs. You can keep the discharge and halogen lights!
m05fastbackGT has been arguing with me on the MAF issue for months, and still uses incorrect punctuation/random exclamation and question mark insertions.
8/12/07, 03:51 PM
#50
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So you claim to have a pretty good grasp on how this stuff works huh ? well I suppose that tuners such as Brenspeed who btw, have specialized in Ford modular motors for 10+ years, who also R&D every product they sell, doesn't have any background either right ? And while you're at it ! why don't you also ask every CAI designer such as Lee Bender, from C&L along with Steeda Autosports, as to which component of the factory intake system, restricts the most airflow ? And I guarantee time and time again, the answer will always be ! the stock airbox..The reason ? other than for the very small opening in the fenderwell ! there's no other place for air to be pulled into the stock airbox to reach the throttle body, thanks to both the bottom and side sections of the airbox, being completely sealed off from the corner grille opening..As for the exhaust manifolds ? Lidio from Alternative Auto Performance, also conducted an independent test comparing the factory exhaust vs MAC 1 3/4 mid length headers, along with a custom high-flow catted H-pipe, and Flowmaster Delta 50 series axle backs..After all was said and done ! his dyno results confirmed just 10-15 RWHP over the stock exhaust, and only at the very peak RPM's..And although, I personally don't have any background as a tuner ! my posts are the results of extensive research from tuners such as Brenspeed, Bamachips, and also from Mike at Powerhouse Automotive, who dyno tested my Steeda CAI and Bamachip's tunes personally, all in which have been in the performance industry for over 15 years..Therefore, the bottom line is this ! when CAI designers such as, Lee Bender from C&L maintain the stock airbox along with the ribbed S curved intake tube, as the main culprits behind it's airflow restriction, not only do I take his word for it ! but he also has the dyno results, to back it up as well..That being said, I personally could care less, as to how much of a grasp you claim to have ! unless you have proof on the dyno, to back it all up ? you're claims don't mean a thing, as far as I'm concerned..And finally ! here's a direct quote, from Lidio at Alternative Auto Performance, concerning the stock exhaust manifolds..Even the exhaust manifolds have a header like shape cast into them unlike older 4.6L manifolds which were essentially a tube with 4 tubes leading into one log. The ‘05 manifolds basically have a 4 into 1 header design..
Umm... I think you may have mis-understood something I wrote man... I never once spoke poorly about Brent or Doug or any of those other guys. These are the guys with the reputations that I aspire to, so if somewhere I came across as insulting them... then my bad.
Do I have Dyno results to back up any of my claims? On Fords, nope, not yet and I even stated as such in my post. But I can give you phone numbers to dozens of GM guys whose setups I have tuned and everyone of them will tell ya that I my tunes will pull with the best of them and usually are more drivable on the street as well, because I also correct the VE tables, whereas most only worry about the WOT fueling.
Secondly... Did you even read what I wrote about the exhaust manifold -header issue? Scavenging tuning... not flow... big difference between them... do some "extensive research" into that one... Also, look at the manifold.. kinda looks like a set of shorties don't they... Hmm..I think I said something about shorties, and most here would agree with what I said...
Sheesh man... all I was doing was trying to get some friendly discussion going... not get attacked by a rabid Rotweiler.
8/12/07, 03:56 PM
#51
Legacy TMS Member
I too noticed that the stock exhaust "logs" resemble unequal length shorty headers. I'm sure there are ponies to be unleashed with exhaust mods, but the stock S197 GT exhaust seems to be one of the coolest stock/factory setups I have seen come out of Ford: only 2 cats, 2.5" mandrel bent pipes (except for one part that is flattened a little), with low-restriction mufflers. My stock manual mufflers drone enough on the highway that I don't even want to consider aftermarket mufflers.
8/12/07, 06:02 PM
#52
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Well, I personally think that the only thing on the stock exhaust to change is the headers (and removing the cats if you can get away with it). Everything else is really just about sound. Theres never been anything to really prove that an X pipe versus an H will provide any substantial (i.e. more than 2 or 3 hp) horsepower gain, and the mufflers flow well enough that they are nothing but sound changes.
Of course, I have no dyno's to prove anything I say, nor can I drop any famous names at big companies to back up what I say, so I am probably wrong...
Of course, I have no dyno's to prove anything I say, nor can I drop any famous names at big companies to back up what I say, so I am probably wrong...
8/12/07, 08:36 PM
#53
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
Your assumption is true if the intake assembly upstream of the MAF is not restrictive at all and the stock air transfer function accounts for this. However, we know that isn't true otherwise everyone else would just keep it stock. When you modify the intake assembly upstream of the MAF, you can allow more air to enter the engine and the adaptive may not handle this very well. The folks that gutted their airboxes can run into pinging if they do not get a dynotune. The K&N FIPK requires a tune, but it appears that most of the air transfer function remains the same except at the mid to higher range. Keep in mind that you are re-using the MAF sampling tube and sensor with the same diameter. Yet, you still need a tune. This has been my point all along. I have spoken to powertrain engineers from the Big 3 and these guys take their jobs seriously. I asked a few about drilling extra drain holes in the bottom of the box just for releasing dust/dirt/water, and they said NOT to do this because it can affect the air transfer function.
A better way to explain this is to compare the amount of air that can flow through the MAF sensor with nothing upstream of the MAF sensor, and with an airbox + filter in the path. It's obvious that the bare sensor setup will be less restrictive since you are not trying to squeeze air through a snorkle, paper airfilter, route it through the airbox lid, etc... The adaptive learning can try to work with this change in airflow at closed loop, but at WOT (open loop mode), the PCM reverts back to the base air transfer function! This is why it is an absolute must to have the air transfer function corrected for your air intake setup and also why it is useful to have a bonestock vehicle dynotuned. The adaptive learning is not functional in open loop mode (the mode you are in when you are WOT, drag racing, etc...)
As for Kevinb, he still thinks HIDs are better because of the color temperature, which is definitely untrue (we all know that ricer blue bulbs aren't better, but the color temperature is tweaked). A properly designed halogen system that puts out as much candela as a HID headlight is going to work just as good regardless of its color temperature within selective yellow in SAE J578c. The human brain and eyes perceive white light differently from yellow light. Some optics experts think that white light is better, some think that yellow light is better. This has been debated for almost as long as synthetic vs non-synthetic engine oil. Just give me LEDs. You can keep the discharge and halogen lights!
m05fastbackGT has been arguing with me on the MAF issue for months, and still uses incorrect punctuation/random exclamation and question mark insertions.
This has been my point all along. I have spoken to powertrain engineers from the Big 3 and these guys take their jobs seriously. I asked a few about drilling extra drain holes in the bottom of the box just for releasing dust/dirt/water, and they said NOT to do this because it can affect the air transfer function. A better way to explain this is to compare the amount of air that can flow through the MAF sensor with nothing upstream of the MAF sensor, and with an airbox + filter in the path. It's obvious that the bare sensor setup will be less restrictive since you are not trying to squeeze air through a snorkle, paper airfilter, route it through the airbox lid, etc... The adaptive learning can try to work with this change in airflow at closed loop, but at WOT (open loop mode), the PCM reverts back to the base air transfer function! This is why it is an absolute must to have the air transfer function corrected for your air intake setup and also why it is useful to have a bonestock vehicle dynotuned. The adaptive learning is not functional in open loop mode (the mode you are in when you are WOT, drag racing, etc...)
As for Kevinb, he still thinks HIDs are better because of the color temperature, which is definitely untrue (we all know that ricer blue bulbs aren't better, but the color temperature is tweaked). A properly designed halogen system that puts out as much candela as a HID headlight is going to work just as good regardless of its color temperature within selective yellow in SAE J578c. The human brain and eyes perceive white light differently from yellow light. Some optics experts think that white light is better, some think that yellow light is better. This has been debated for almost as long as synthetic vs non-synthetic engine oil. Just give me LEDs. You can keep the discharge and halogen lights!
m05fastbackGT has been arguing with me on the MAF issue for months, and still uses incorrect punctuation/random exclamation and question mark insertions.
meanwhile ! the man's been in the performance industry for over 15 years, and has a degree in mechanical engineering who's also ranked the no.1 SCT tuner in the nation, however according to the GREAT METROPLEX, who's never wrong ? we as enthusiasts ! shouldn't listen to vendors like him, because god forbid.. if those of us who purchase a K&N Aircharger from him, and don't get a tune ? we then run the risk of leaning out the air/fuel mixture, and may cause the risk of possible detonation and engine damage.. Once again ! it doesn't take a rocket scientist or in you're case ? a genius to comprehend, as long as the MAF is either the same size, or smaller than stock ? anything after the MAF or in you're own words ! downstream, or is it upstream now ? DOES NOT REQUIRE A RE-TUNE..Therefore once again ! if what you claimed had any real truth to it ? do you really believe, that vendors such as Brenspeed would take such a high risk of possibly losing their entire business, by providing inacurrate and false info. to their customers ??? If this is what you truly believe ? then not only are you completely stupid ! but also need committed into the nearest looney bin as well..With that being said ! all the pot shots in the world towards me, will never change the fact, of just how much of a worthless coward you truly are 
8/12/07, 09:26 PM
#54
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
Umm... I think you may have mis-understood something I wrote man... I never once spoke poorly about Brent or Doug or any of those other guys. These are the guys with the reputations that I aspire to, so if somewhere I came across as insulting them... then my bad.
Do I have Dyno results to back up any of my claims? On Fords, nope, not yet and I even stated as such in my post. But I can give you phone numbers to dozens of GM guys whose setups I have tuned and everyone of them will tell ya that I my tunes will pull with the best of them and usually are more drivable on the street as well, because I also correct the VE tables, whereas most only worry about the WOT fueling.
Secondly... Did you even read what I wrote about the exhaust manifold -header issue? Scavenging tuning... not flow... big difference between them... do some "extensive research" into that one... Also, look at the manifold.. kinda looks like a set of shorties don't they... Hmm..I think I said something about shorties, and most here would agree with what I said...
Sheesh man... all I was doing was trying to get some friendly discussion going... not get attacked by a rabid Rotweiler.
Do I have Dyno results to back up any of my claims? On Fords, nope, not yet and I even stated as such in my post. But I can give you phone numbers to dozens of GM guys whose setups I have tuned and everyone of them will tell ya that I my tunes will pull with the best of them and usually are more drivable on the street as well, because I also correct the VE tables, whereas most only worry about the WOT fueling.
Secondly... Did you even read what I wrote about the exhaust manifold -header issue? Scavenging tuning... not flow... big difference between them... do some "extensive research" into that one... Also, look at the manifold.. kinda looks like a set of shorties don't they... Hmm..I think I said something about shorties, and most here would agree with what I said...
Sheesh man... all I was doing was trying to get some friendly discussion going... not get attacked by a rabid Rotweiler.
8/12/07, 09:46 PM
#55
unsubscribing... 
8/13/07, 12:09 PM
#58
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
And this confirms what I've pointed out, from the very beginning !
Quote:
Originally Posted by theedge67
I disagree with Metroplex on this one. As long as the tube diameter where the MAF is located remains the same, the MAF will read correctly, and the engine will get the proper air/fuel mixture.
The problem lies in making the diameter bigger or smaller, then the MAF will not read correctly. This is why you need a tune when you get an aftermarket CAI. The diameter is larger on those, therefore needing a tune.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theedge67
I disagree with Metroplex on this one. As long as the tube diameter where the MAF is located remains the same, the MAF will read correctly, and the engine will get the proper air/fuel mixture.
The problem lies in making the diameter bigger or smaller, then the MAF will not read correctly. This is why you need a tune when you get an aftermarket CAI. The diameter is larger on those, therefore needing a tune.
8/13/07, 07:36 PM
#59
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
.... we as enthusiasts ! shouldn't listen to vendors like him, because god forbid.. if those of us who purchase a K&N Aircharger from him, and don't get a tune ? we then run the risk of leaning out the air/fuel mixture, and may cause the risk of possible detonation and engine damage..
I don't know if I'm adding fuel to the fire or levity here but...My K&N ran very rich after being on my car for a couple of months without a tune.
I tuned it so it would run better and use less gas. Detonation was not a factor.
8/13/07, 10:09 PM
#60
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator