C&L Intake System Initial Results
1/20/05, 08:00 PM
#62
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I just "pre-ordered" the C&L kit, I was going to get the Diablo tuner anyway. I will kill 2 birds w/1 stone. Besides we all no what the MMR/SCT route will gain you let's see how the C&L/Diablo route will go! I'll post pic's and results. 
1/20/05, 09:17 PM
#66
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This is my next mod, so I am very interested.
66
The only reason that I have not bought the KN filter, alone, is to save 50 bucks.
But as the miles go on, I am sacrificing better MPG while I wait for the C&L update info.
66
The only reason that I have not bought the KN filter, alone, is to save 50 bucks.
But as the miles go on, I am sacrificing better MPG while I wait for the C&L update info.
1/20/05, 10:28 PM
#67
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Originally posted by SixtySix@January 20, 2005, 6:42 AM
That's what I plan on doing as my first engine mod, just gotta wait for that darned filter to get here!
That's what I plan on doing as my first engine mod, just gotta wait for that darned filter to get here!
Paul
1/21/05, 11:11 AM
#68
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Originally posted by Vegasjay@January 20, 2005, 10:03 PM
I just "pre-ordered" the C&L kit, I was going to get the Diablo tuner anyway. I will kill 2 birds w/1 stone. Besides we all no what the MMR/SCT route will gain you let's see how the C&L/Diablo route will go! I'll post pic's and results.
I just "pre-ordered" the C&L kit, I was going to get the Diablo tuner anyway. I will kill 2 birds w/1 stone. Besides we all no what the MMR/SCT route will gain you let's see how the C&L/Diablo route will go! I'll post pic's and results.
1/26/05, 05:05 PM
#69
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I just called C&L today. They said they should ship Feb. 1st! The finnal price was still up in the air, but they told me about $750 plus or minus. I'm also having the polished finish applied and that adds $25. I'll keep you guy's posted.
Lee,
I was wondering since the tuner will be comeing from you guy's could your company work with Diablo to also set the tuner up for my car w/longtube header's and no cats?? Any help would be greatly appreciated, thank you!!!
Lee,
I was wondering since the tuner will be comeing from you guy's could your company work with Diablo to also set the tuner up for my car w/longtube header's and no cats?? Any help would be greatly appreciated, thank you!!!
1/26/05, 05:39 PM
#70
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Originally posted by Vegasjay@January 26, 2005, 4:08 PM
I just called C&L today. They said they should ship Feb. 1st! The finnal price was still up in the air, but they told me about $750 plus or minus.
I just called C&L today. They said they should ship Feb. 1st! The finnal price was still up in the air, but they told me about $750 plus or minus.
:shock: $750 for intake? wtf?
1/26/05, 05:56 PM
#71
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Settle down! 
It's not just the intake. The kit will include; filter, heatshield, MAF houseing, aluminum intake tube, Diablo Predator tuner (pre-programed), seals & hardware!! Not a bad price at all....
It's not just the intake. The kit will include; filter, heatshield, MAF houseing, aluminum intake tube, Diablo Predator tuner (pre-programed), seals & hardware!! Not a bad price at all....
1/26/05, 06:11 PM
#72
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Originally posted by wild stray@January 20, 2005, 11:31 PM
Sixty-Six, if you were to keep close track of mileage before & after the K&N install, it would tell us if the computer adjusts to having it on there and if it does some good long term. Just a thought.
Sixty-Six, if you were to keep close track of mileage before & after the K&N install, it would tell us if the computer adjusts to having it on there and if it does some good long term. Just a thought.
Highway is 22 mpg so far.
140mph blasts are 3 gallons to the mile
VegasJay, I'll be real interested in what your performance will be like in the summer with that aluminium intake. Me thinks it may not be the best option for us oven dwellers
1/26/05, 06:22 PM
#73
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66
I thought you always put a couple of bags of ice on top of your motor before you went any where in your stang?
Cruising at 125 mph does not burn 3 gallons a mile. I have yet to get a piece of road around here that would allow 150 safely. I have not gone out at 4 am yet either though.
I thought you always put a couple of bags of ice on top of your motor before you went any where in your stang?
Cruising at 125 mph does not burn 3 gallons a mile. I have yet to get a piece of road around here that would allow 150 safely. I have not gone out at 4 am yet either though.
1/26/05, 06:34 PM
#74
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VegasJay, I'll be real interested in what your performance will be like in the summer with that aluminium intake. Me thinks it may not be the best option for us oven dwellers
Yah I was currious about that myself 66. I called C&L and they assured me thier aluminum intake would not heat sink any worse than black plastic/rubber. We'll see...... Gona have to do winter/summer comparison dyno's....
Yah I was currious about that myself 66. I called C&L and they assured me thier aluminum intake would not heat sink any worse than black plastic/rubber. We'll see...... Gona have to do winter/summer comparison dyno's....
1/26/05, 06:48 PM
#75
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As an engineer I look at this super nice alum. casting as a giant heat exchanger which is what it is. Alum is one of the fastest heat transfer materials known. I would be willing to bet that the dyno runs were with a cold engine and the hood up. When someone bulids this system out of composite material that is very low in heat transfer I will purchase. Take a look at the factory system, The air intake is in the coldest area under that hood and the material is plastic and rubber that have a very low heat transfer numbers. Pull out the trap and change the filter to a high flow like a K&N and I'll bet the numbers are BETTER than the aftermarket systems. MY two cents.
1/26/05, 08:15 PM
#76
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Even on the hottest day I highly doubt removing the H/C trap and droping in a K&N filter is going to net more HP than a C&L kit with a tune.NO WAY!! When it's 120 degrees out it's hot, the inside of your engine compartment is literaley an oven. Even if the aluminum tubeing transfers 20 more degrees it won't make that much of a differance! I will do every thing I can to cool the air, but I'm not going to worry about the C&L kit. We will see........
1/26/05, 08:32 PM
#77
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Originally posted by Mongoose@January 26, 2005, 7:51 PM
As an engineer I look at this super nice alum. casting as a giant heat exchanger which is what it is. Alum is one of the fastest heat transfer materials known. I would be willing to bet that the dyno runs were with a cold engine and the hood up. When someone bulids this system out of composite material that is very low in heat transfer I will purchase. Take a look at the factory system, The air intake is in the coldest area under that hood and the material is plastic and rubber that have a very low heat transfer numbers. Pull out the trap and change the filter to a high flow like a K&N and I'll bet the numbers are BETTER than the aftermarket systems. MY two cents.
As an engineer I look at this super nice alum. casting as a giant heat exchanger which is what it is. Alum is one of the fastest heat transfer materials known. I would be willing to bet that the dyno runs were with a cold engine and the hood up. When someone bulids this system out of composite material that is very low in heat transfer I will purchase. Take a look at the factory system, The air intake is in the coldest area under that hood and the material is plastic and rubber that have a very low heat transfer numbers. Pull out the trap and change the filter to a high flow like a K&N and I'll bet the numbers are BETTER than the aftermarket systems. MY two cents.
My .02
1/26/05, 09:19 PM
#78
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Hi All, Lee Bender here...
We will begin shipping our complete intake systems early next week (first of February). We waited until the 2005 capable Predator was ready to ship before releasing our package. All of the new "2005 GT" capable Predators will come with an option to select that you have installed our air intake system. This will make things incredibly easy at the typical consumer level. I have provided lots of updated information to our webmaster, and I am hoping that he will put everything up before this weekend is over so everyone will be able to read all of the details. As will be stated on our website, any changes that you make to the vehicle in the future (off road pipe, headers, etc.) that may effect your air/fuel ratio can be easily adjusted for through the Predator, as it gives you the ability to make air/fuel and timing adjustments independent of the tune that is initially installed. This is a HUGE plus, as you will not have to be relying upon a shop or tuner to re-flash or update your handheld tuner when you make future changes. Full details will be on our site soon, so please check there.
As for a couple of other questions that have been thrown around... Changing the air filter alone DOES effect the air/fuel ratio quite a bit, but you certainly won't see a "check engine" light with it. You can install our complete assembly, and you won't get a "check engine" light either, but that doesn't mean that the tune is right. We saw a 14:1 air/fuel ratio in testing while using just a higher flowing filter assembly. In other words, even if you cut the MAF housing off the top of your airbox and clamped a K&N filter to the end of it, it would be leaner than what is ideal (14:1 or so) but you won't get a "check engine" light because even though 14:1 is lean, it isn't bad enough to throw a light. And no, our MAF unit is not the same size as stock. Since a tune was necessary anyway, we made the air meter a perfect match for the opening of the inlet pipe (which is larger).
As far as the pipe being made out of aluminum and to answer questions about the benefits/weaknesses between using metals and other materials, I understand that there are always going to be some people who are convinced of something, no matter how well you state your case to prove otherwise. If you have an open mind, continue reading this. If you already think that a metal or aluminum inlet pipe can't possibly make as much power as a plastic one, then please go on to the next post...
In 1995 I purchased one of the very first Dynojet automotive dynos, and since then, I have tested many, many, MANY different vehicles, even on lots of other people's dynos, and I have never seen any conclusive evidence that running an exposed air filter will cost you even 1 HP versus a completely isolated filter. I know that this goes against what many people want to believe, but the truth is that by the time the air travels through the manifold and is separated into each individual intake port, the temperature of the air charge on a naturally aspirated engine is approximately 175 degrees at idle/low air flow and about 150 degrees at WOT. The outside (ambient) temperature does effect performance, as you will see a temperature drop (and performance boost) across the board as higher oxygen content (quality) airflow makes it into the engine. The same holds true about the construction of inlet pipes. At wide open throttle, the speed of the air traveling through the pipe is so great and the amount of the friction between the air going through the pipe and the inner wall of the tube is so minimal, that you can not measure any difference in dyno testing between inlet pipes made of different materials. Maybe if you bothered to place a temperature probe immediately after the inlet tube, you might see a very small difference in the temperature, but by the time you see the dyno numbers, you will realize that there is nothing to it and you are obsessing over a non-issue.
We use aluminum because we can cast it in sophisticated shapes that "exhaust pipe tube" based cold air kits simply can not come close to duplicating. You will notice that any other companies that sell such "cold air" kits for "oval" throttle body vehicles actually use rubber boots to mate up to the engine and then clamp that to round pipe. This limits your options, as you have to live with whatever shape the rubber takes when it bends, due to the fact that it is so flexible. Sure, we could have our pipes made out of plastic like K&N and some others do with their intake kits, but then instead of being faced with the "isn't that going to heat up the air" question, we would be faced with people calling it "cheap" and then complaining when the tube crushes flat when they tighten the clamp up too tight. We have contemplated making molds for such a version of our pipes, but we would only be doing so to offer a "budget" kit for those who might have otherwise bought a lower cost exhaust pipe tube based kit. It has always been my experience that engineers or engineer types are people who are often obsessed with heat and it's effect on performance. Please do not get me wrong, I am not saying this to in any way disrespect you. But, I have seen far too many engineers (many of them friends of mine working on projects) spend all of their brain power trying to do things in a different and unique/new way, only to end up doing it the (proven) way that I told them to use in the first place. Long story short, on a naturally aspirated engine, you can run your filter exposed with the hood shut and a metal/aluminum intake pipe and not find any less conclusive horsepower on the dyno than you will generate with the filter mounted outside of the engine bay with plastic or rubber plumbing. This has always been what I have seen in many dyno tests, and I hear the same thing on a regular basis from every reputable business that we deal with who shares their results with us.
We were recently approached by a company that wants to make inlet pipes for us out of carbon fiber. Our COST on the parts, without hoses, clamps or fittings applied, is nearly what our current complete pipes retail for. I don't believe that we would be able to sell too many of those pipes at the price that would be necessary to make even a modest profit for both us and our distributors.
Sorry to be so long-winded. As you know, I try to stay off of these boards, and when I have something to say, it usually takes a good bit of typing. I would never get any sleep, and would probably pull the rest of my hair out, if I were to attempt to respond to every relevant thread that could effect our business on all of these various message boards. I have seen some ridiculous posts lately on other boards, and it is so frustrating to know that there are people out there who are actually trying to influence others about things that they obviously know nothing about. I try to stay away from that kind of stuff at all costs. I hope that this info was helpful...
Lee
We will begin shipping our complete intake systems early next week (first of February). We waited until the 2005 capable Predator was ready to ship before releasing our package. All of the new "2005 GT" capable Predators will come with an option to select that you have installed our air intake system. This will make things incredibly easy at the typical consumer level. I have provided lots of updated information to our webmaster, and I am hoping that he will put everything up before this weekend is over so everyone will be able to read all of the details. As will be stated on our website, any changes that you make to the vehicle in the future (off road pipe, headers, etc.) that may effect your air/fuel ratio can be easily adjusted for through the Predator, as it gives you the ability to make air/fuel and timing adjustments independent of the tune that is initially installed. This is a HUGE plus, as you will not have to be relying upon a shop or tuner to re-flash or update your handheld tuner when you make future changes. Full details will be on our site soon, so please check there.
As for a couple of other questions that have been thrown around... Changing the air filter alone DOES effect the air/fuel ratio quite a bit, but you certainly won't see a "check engine" light with it. You can install our complete assembly, and you won't get a "check engine" light either, but that doesn't mean that the tune is right. We saw a 14:1 air/fuel ratio in testing while using just a higher flowing filter assembly. In other words, even if you cut the MAF housing off the top of your airbox and clamped a K&N filter to the end of it, it would be leaner than what is ideal (14:1 or so) but you won't get a "check engine" light because even though 14:1 is lean, it isn't bad enough to throw a light. And no, our MAF unit is not the same size as stock. Since a tune was necessary anyway, we made the air meter a perfect match for the opening of the inlet pipe (which is larger).
As far as the pipe being made out of aluminum and to answer questions about the benefits/weaknesses between using metals and other materials, I understand that there are always going to be some people who are convinced of something, no matter how well you state your case to prove otherwise. If you have an open mind, continue reading this. If you already think that a metal or aluminum inlet pipe can't possibly make as much power as a plastic one, then please go on to the next post...
In 1995 I purchased one of the very first Dynojet automotive dynos, and since then, I have tested many, many, MANY different vehicles, even on lots of other people's dynos, and I have never seen any conclusive evidence that running an exposed air filter will cost you even 1 HP versus a completely isolated filter. I know that this goes against what many people want to believe, but the truth is that by the time the air travels through the manifold and is separated into each individual intake port, the temperature of the air charge on a naturally aspirated engine is approximately 175 degrees at idle/low air flow and about 150 degrees at WOT. The outside (ambient) temperature does effect performance, as you will see a temperature drop (and performance boost) across the board as higher oxygen content (quality) airflow makes it into the engine. The same holds true about the construction of inlet pipes. At wide open throttle, the speed of the air traveling through the pipe is so great and the amount of the friction between the air going through the pipe and the inner wall of the tube is so minimal, that you can not measure any difference in dyno testing between inlet pipes made of different materials. Maybe if you bothered to place a temperature probe immediately after the inlet tube, you might see a very small difference in the temperature, but by the time you see the dyno numbers, you will realize that there is nothing to it and you are obsessing over a non-issue.
We use aluminum because we can cast it in sophisticated shapes that "exhaust pipe tube" based cold air kits simply can not come close to duplicating. You will notice that any other companies that sell such "cold air" kits for "oval" throttle body vehicles actually use rubber boots to mate up to the engine and then clamp that to round pipe. This limits your options, as you have to live with whatever shape the rubber takes when it bends, due to the fact that it is so flexible. Sure, we could have our pipes made out of plastic like K&N and some others do with their intake kits, but then instead of being faced with the "isn't that going to heat up the air" question, we would be faced with people calling it "cheap" and then complaining when the tube crushes flat when they tighten the clamp up too tight. We have contemplated making molds for such a version of our pipes, but we would only be doing so to offer a "budget" kit for those who might have otherwise bought a lower cost exhaust pipe tube based kit. It has always been my experience that engineers or engineer types are people who are often obsessed with heat and it's effect on performance. Please do not get me wrong, I am not saying this to in any way disrespect you. But, I have seen far too many engineers (many of them friends of mine working on projects) spend all of their brain power trying to do things in a different and unique/new way, only to end up doing it the (proven) way that I told them to use in the first place. Long story short, on a naturally aspirated engine, you can run your filter exposed with the hood shut and a metal/aluminum intake pipe and not find any less conclusive horsepower on the dyno than you will generate with the filter mounted outside of the engine bay with plastic or rubber plumbing. This has always been what I have seen in many dyno tests, and I hear the same thing on a regular basis from every reputable business that we deal with who shares their results with us.
We were recently approached by a company that wants to make inlet pipes for us out of carbon fiber. Our COST on the parts, without hoses, clamps or fittings applied, is nearly what our current complete pipes retail for. I don't believe that we would be able to sell too many of those pipes at the price that would be necessary to make even a modest profit for both us and our distributors.
Sorry to be so long-winded. As you know, I try to stay off of these boards, and when I have something to say, it usually takes a good bit of typing. I would never get any sleep, and would probably pull the rest of my hair out, if I were to attempt to respond to every relevant thread that could effect our business on all of these various message boards. I have seen some ridiculous posts lately on other boards, and it is so frustrating to know that there are people out there who are actually trying to influence others about things that they obviously know nothing about. I try to stay away from that kind of stuff at all costs. I hope that this info was helpful...
Lee
1/26/05, 09:41 PM
#79
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Thank you very much for your post Lee. I'm very excited about recieving my kit and I think it's great your including the Diablo predator with your kit. I'm looking forward to the results from your product. Thank's for taking the time to answer my questions!
1/26/05, 10:37 PM
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Originally posted by Mongoose@January 26, 2005, 7:51 PM
Pull out the trap and change the filter to a high flow like a K&N and I'll bet the numbers are BETTER than the aftermarket systems. MY two cents.
Pull out the trap and change the filter to a high flow like a K&N and I'll bet the numbers are BETTER than the aftermarket systems. MY two cents.
Oh, and I just did that mod by the way. The K&N filter came in this afternoon, so this evening I did the switch and the HC Trap removal. At least what we're all calling the HC trap. I took it out and I fail to see how this is an HC Trap, nor do I see a big restriction either, pictures aren't everything, look at it as a cross section and there isn't a whole lot of restriction going on. This piece seems to me an attempt at creating turbulence maybe?
If this thing we're all calling the HC trap is the HC trap, then what is the "thing" hanging down off of the bottom of the rubber inlet and ending in an enclosed small box?
Anyone know if there is a Haynes or Chilton's out on this thing yet?
After seeing this alleged device/air-filter, I'd like to know for sure if it is the HC Trap and if it is, how does it work?