C&L Intake System Initial Results
12/21/04, 05:56 PM
#42
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I've be thinking about this as well. I see the MMR air intake is a safe middle of the road for me. Better that a replacement filter but, not as crazy as a whole C.A.I. system. I will be getting alot more air and can go back to stock quickly.
12/22/04, 06:15 AM
#43
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Yes, but anyone who has the MMR kit is going to need a reflash, because the computer is picking up and correcting for the new MMR intake, basically undoing any gains you get from it. So unless im reading this wrong, if you get an MMR intake you will need a reflash, or you are basically wasting your cash.
Sounds like C&L is the way to go for now, if you dont want to reflash.
Sounds like C&L is the way to go for now, if you dont want to reflash.
12/22/04, 08:00 AM
#45
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I still don't get paying over $300 for 10hp. 7 of the 17 hp can be had for free.
Then again, if we end up getting better and better tunes, with more ways to breath, I would guess that this might have even more improvement on the high end breathing over the stock unit. But for those who wish to remain with a stock tune (no flashing), this is over $30/hp.
Then again, if we end up getting better and better tunes, with more ways to breath, I would guess that this might have even more improvement on the high end breathing over the stock unit. But for those who wish to remain with a stock tune (no flashing), this is over $30/hp.
12/22/04, 09:45 AM
#46
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Originally posted by LeeB99@December 17, 2004, 3:48 PM
This package can not be directly compared to any other system, as the inlet pipe alone added 6 rear wheel HP over the stock inlet plumbing.
This package can not be directly compared to any other system, as the inlet pipe alone added 6 rear wheel HP over the stock inlet plumbing.
7 of the 17 hp can be had for free.
M1Rifle has a point. The C&L testing states that the inlet piping creates 6hp. So does removing the HC filter in the stock piping. Since by installing the C&L piping, you are removing the HC filter, does this mean that the C&L piping increase is actually due to the removal of the HC trap, and not the C&L piping? If so, in essence, you are only getting 10-12 hp gain with the C&L intake.
Or is this 6hp gain above the stock piping without the HC trap?
12/22/04, 09:50 AM
#47
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Just a FYI the K&N will post their numbers with HC trap inside of the tubing because of CARB regulations. That way we will know how much the tubing/heat shield/filter really give us with a stock tune.
12/22/04, 10:53 AM
#48
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So its looking like the only advantage that C&L has over say MMR is you dont need a chip reflash? I mean for anyone considering this we have already removed the HC trap, so the gains are going to be around 10 hp for the C&L with no chip flash or an initial 12 HP on the MMR before the computer starts adjusting?
12/22/04, 09:17 PM
#49
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I'm still quite interested in this intake. I may just put it in down the road. Its quite a bit of change though. However, seeing as how the only mods I'd ever do are exhaust, intake and rims/tires, and more importantly I don't want to void the factory warranty/get a tune, this setup is probably worth it.
So, any power increase guesses for a C&L intake + cat/axle -back exhaust?
So, any power increase guesses for a C&L intake + cat/axle -back exhaust?
12/22/04, 11:12 PM
#50
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Originally posted by Dan@December 22, 2004, 8:20 PM
So any power increase guesses for a C&L intake + cat/axle -back exhaust?
So any power increase guesses for a C&L intake + cat/axle -back exhaust?
12/27/04, 08:27 PM
#51
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Hey all,
Just wanted to step in and post that I will be dyno testing another vehicle in the morning, and we will try to put the results up on our site within a reasonable period of time. The mold for the filter shield has been made, and I will be test-fitting it on our local test vehicle (the previous car was from out of town) possibly tomorrow as well.
I noticed that several people were guessing as to how the pipe upgrade compares to removing the carbon trap. The highest HP gain that I have EVER heard of from removing the trap (from people that I know in the industry who have tested it) was 4 HP, but others have told me as little as 2 HP. I don't know where the '7 HP' figure that some people seem to be mentioning is coming from.
When dealing with such small gains (4 HP or so), test conditions can easily skew the results. We did 3 base pulls on our first test vehicle. The cold pull netted 267 HP, the second was 265 and the 3rd was 257! If you use the 257 HP test as your base (which we DID NOT) and then remove the carbon trap and then do a "cooler" pull, you might see a 7 HP gain that you believe to be from the removal of the carbon trap. When in fact, during the time you removed the trap from the pipe the temperature conditions cooled down to something like the 2nd pull. I am not saying that removing the trap is not a mod that will give you a gain, but I can assure you that our inlet pipe is not going to give the exact same gain as removing the trap from the stock pipe. Take a good look at the flow path of the stock tube and compare it to ours. You can SEE where there is room for improvement. Tomorrow, I will re-test the stock hose versus our pipe and report the results.
We did not remove the carbon trap from the test vehicle, but as restrictive as you might be led to believe, I don't honestly believe that removing it will give near the improvement of our inlet pipe. At best, removing the carbon trap should be a 4 HP gain. Our pipe is a much better flowing design than the original plumbing, carbon trap or not. I would suspect that our pipe is good for a MINIMUM 2 additional rear wheel HP gain over the removal of the carbon trap.
As far as emmissions go, and warranty, the system can be EASILY swapped back to stock in literally just a few minutes. We see no reason to try to accomodate that item in our kit when we all know that no one will bother to insert it into the new inlet tube. Especially if people are telling them that it will give them "substantial gains" to keep it out. There is a federal law that states that a dealership can not deny you warranty coverage on a vehicle, even if you have modified it, unless the emissions control devices have been removed from the vehicle OR they can claim that the warranty service in question was a problem that was directly caused by their modifications, and they have to PROVE it. Of course, nothing about our system will cause you to need to go through a warranty claim. But if you ever have a need to take the car in for service, swapping it back to stock should be quite easy. Besides, I think the trap should be kept in the stock intake hose for this reason. Even though I have not tried to remove it, I can imagine that many people would damage it upon removal, causing it to be potentially more restrictive than it originally was.
Sorry to be so long-winded, but I hope that this answers some of the questions that people have about the pipe and carbon trap...
Lee
Just wanted to step in and post that I will be dyno testing another vehicle in the morning, and we will try to put the results up on our site within a reasonable period of time. The mold for the filter shield has been made, and I will be test-fitting it on our local test vehicle (the previous car was from out of town) possibly tomorrow as well.
I noticed that several people were guessing as to how the pipe upgrade compares to removing the carbon trap. The highest HP gain that I have EVER heard of from removing the trap (from people that I know in the industry who have tested it) was 4 HP, but others have told me as little as 2 HP. I don't know where the '7 HP' figure that some people seem to be mentioning is coming from.
When dealing with such small gains (4 HP or so), test conditions can easily skew the results. We did 3 base pulls on our first test vehicle. The cold pull netted 267 HP, the second was 265 and the 3rd was 257! If you use the 257 HP test as your base (which we DID NOT) and then remove the carbon trap and then do a "cooler" pull, you might see a 7 HP gain that you believe to be from the removal of the carbon trap. When in fact, during the time you removed the trap from the pipe the temperature conditions cooled down to something like the 2nd pull. I am not saying that removing the trap is not a mod that will give you a gain, but I can assure you that our inlet pipe is not going to give the exact same gain as removing the trap from the stock pipe. Take a good look at the flow path of the stock tube and compare it to ours. You can SEE where there is room for improvement. Tomorrow, I will re-test the stock hose versus our pipe and report the results.
We did not remove the carbon trap from the test vehicle, but as restrictive as you might be led to believe, I don't honestly believe that removing it will give near the improvement of our inlet pipe. At best, removing the carbon trap should be a 4 HP gain. Our pipe is a much better flowing design than the original plumbing, carbon trap or not. I would suspect that our pipe is good for a MINIMUM 2 additional rear wheel HP gain over the removal of the carbon trap.
As far as emmissions go, and warranty, the system can be EASILY swapped back to stock in literally just a few minutes. We see no reason to try to accomodate that item in our kit when we all know that no one will bother to insert it into the new inlet tube. Especially if people are telling them that it will give them "substantial gains" to keep it out. There is a federal law that states that a dealership can not deny you warranty coverage on a vehicle, even if you have modified it, unless the emissions control devices have been removed from the vehicle OR they can claim that the warranty service in question was a problem that was directly caused by their modifications, and they have to PROVE it. Of course, nothing about our system will cause you to need to go through a warranty claim. But if you ever have a need to take the car in for service, swapping it back to stock should be quite easy. Besides, I think the trap should be kept in the stock intake hose for this reason. Even though I have not tried to remove it, I can imagine that many people would damage it upon removal, causing it to be potentially more restrictive than it originally was.
Sorry to be so long-winded, but I hope that this answers some of the questions that people have about the pipe and carbon trap...
Lee
12/27/04, 08:43 PM
#52
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Originally posted by LeeB99@December 27, 2004, 10:30 PM
I would suspect that our pipe is good for a MINIMUM 2 additional rear wheel HP gain over the removal of the carbon trap.
I would suspect that our pipe is good for a MINIMUM 2 additional rear wheel HP gain over the removal of the carbon trap.
How consistent are your gains? Has it been tested on multiple '05s?
12/27/04, 09:41 PM
#53
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Good question Jamie. What are the RANGE of gains (minimum and maximum) you've seen?
Also, are you saying that even without the trap, you're system meets emission requirements?
Also, are you saying that even without the trap, you're system meets emission requirements?
12/28/04, 08:13 AM
#54
Originally posted by Mellow Yellow@December 22, 2004, 11:56 AM
So its looking like the only advantage that C&L has over say MMR is you dont need a chip reflash? I mean for anyone considering this we have already removed the HC trap, so the gains are going to be around 10 hp for the C&L with no chip flash or an initial 12 HP on the MMR before the computer starts adjusting?
So its looking like the only advantage that C&L has over say MMR is you dont need a chip reflash? I mean for anyone considering this we have already removed the HC trap, so the gains are going to be around 10 hp for the C&L with no chip flash or an initial 12 HP on the MMR before the computer starts adjusting?
12/28/04, 08:22 AM
#55
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That has been twisted in this forum. You only need a reflash for the MMR for the extra flow beacuse it is bigger guys. If has a larger MAF than stock. The C&L (i belive) is the same size.
From what I can tell the C&L has a smoother flow and the air filter. The MMR has a filter and larger MAF. The stock is 79mm and the MMR is 85 mm. Once MMR comes out with their smooth tube and heat shield, you will have a better quality product. IMHO.
-Bryan
From what I can tell the C&L has a smoother flow and the air filter. The MMR has a filter and larger MAF. The stock is 79mm and the MMR is 85 mm. Once MMR comes out with their smooth tube and heat shield, you will have a better quality product. IMHO.
-Bryan
12/28/04, 09:53 AM
#56
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I posted the 7hp gain.
You are correct, though, that it could be lower because I didn't take multiple runs to deduce a statistically relevant run. In addition, my 7hp gain was with an SCT 91 octane tune (the car ran the before/after with the HC trap on an SCT 91 tune, we didn't change the tune during the session).
The point being, some of your gains can be replicated by removing the HC trap. People need to realize that. I don't think it is false advertising, they should realize that they can get 4-7HP gain free, and that same "mod" of removing the HC trap is part of the gain of the C&L sy stem.
You are correct, though, that it could be lower because I didn't take multiple runs to deduce a statistically relevant run. In addition, my 7hp gain was with an SCT 91 octane tune (the car ran the before/after with the HC trap on an SCT 91 tune, we didn't change the tune during the session).
The point being, some of your gains can be replicated by removing the HC trap. People need to realize that. I don't think it is false advertising, they should realize that they can get 4-7HP gain free, and that same "mod" of removing the HC trap is part of the gain of the C&L sy stem.
1/14/05, 03:05 PM
#57
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According to C&L their unit will need a reflash and the total cost for their setup will run over $749 dollars because of a diablo tuner included with the kit.
They now even think that the KN filter alone, with no CAI will require a retune because the car's computer is so sensitive!
Note if this is old news, I'm sorry.
They now even think that the KN filter alone, with no CAI will require a retune because the car's computer is so sensitive!
Note if this is old news, I'm sorry.
1/20/05, 07:41 AM
#60
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Originally posted by 38special@January 14, 2005, 4:08 PM
According to C&L their unit will need a reflash and the total cost for their setup will run over $749 dollars because of a diablo tuner included with the kit.
They now even think that the KN filter alone, with no CAI will require a retune because the car's computer is so sensitive!
Note if this is old news, I'm sorry.
According to C&L their unit will need a reflash and the total cost for their setup will run over $749 dollars because of a diablo tuner included with the kit.
They now even think that the KN filter alone, with no CAI will require a retune because the car's computer is so sensitive!
Note if this is old news, I'm sorry.
I will disagree about just using the K&N filter & needing a flash. I am sure I am flowing more air with my Poor Mans CAI then if I just dropped a K&N into the stock box. I also have the muffler delete. No light. My .02.