metroplex

Is there a tried-and-true method for grabbing 350-400 naturally aspirated crank hp out of the 4.6L 3V in a S197 GT that still runs on 87 octane without forced induction or NOS? For that matter, is there a way to do the same to a 4.6L 2V V8?

ILikeBond

This is an interesting and fun question, and I really don't know the answer, but I gotta think if you were aiming for this type of extreme performance, it makes no sense to do it with 87 octane gas.

One kind-of obvious way to achieve this is with Nitrous, but you'd have to upgrade a bunch of other stuff potentially, and I'm not sure you're really talking about this method [ETA: ah, your edited post says no NOS, yup], as opposed to more bolt-on, permanent and constant-use type of mods. If that is what you mean, my guess is, "no," but just for fun if I were trying to maximize the hp on a N/A s197 engine, I'd do the following:

- Cold Air Intake
- Dyno tune
- Long-tube headers
- Off-road x-pipe and sraight pipes in the back
- Upgraded cams and heads (I'm not real well versed in this)
- Underdrive Pulleys
- Upgraded sparks and COPS (One person claims plugs gapped at .060 with 60,000-volt COPS resulted in added HP, I believe)

My guess is you'd still only be at ~ 340 here on 91 or 93 gas, but not on 87.

/speculation

Looking forward to hearing other responses.

Dougxox

looking at others RWHP output with those mods will only get you about 300 to 325, and that is including an alum. drive shaft, UDP's and elect H2O pump. This is where I hope to be when I'm done with my mods.
To get up higher you may have to look deeper than just bolt on's.

Enfynet

300rwhp ~
15% driveline loss = 353bhp
10% driveline loss = 333bhp

320rwhp ~
15% driveline loss = 376bhp
10% driveline loss = 356bhp

To get 400bhp you're looking between 340-360rwhp

RadBOSS

I think the simple answer is in the 5L Ford racing engine. Detuned you will be right where you want to be.

Another answer is there is no substitute for cubic inches, whether bored and stroked, or supercharge or thru modern chemistry.

seabiscuit

All popular N/A mods + that http://www.brenspeed.com/127200.html and you should be around 400 HP on a crank.

classix_stang289

i cant wait to go do my dyno tuning and see where im at!

Enfynet

Am I reading that right, those don't need phasers OR springs? just a cam swap??

Torrence

These will help: http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/...t.phtml?p=1531

EagleStroker

P&P your stockers and throw cams in it, the little bit extra you'd get out of those doesn't really justify the price IMO and if your only looking for 400, you'd never be able to maximize their gains.

seabiscuit

Yep that is stage 2. There is stage 3 as well which gave about up to 40rwhp and they need change of retainers and springs http://www.brenspeed.com/127300.html - speak with Brenspeed if you are interested they are very keen on them. They achieved on stage 3 347rwhp what gave on the crank with 15% lost 399bhp – wow.

metroplex

So what are we looking at with JUST the Stage 3 heads and Stage 3 cams? How driveable is the car with these mods using 87 octane?

EagleStroker

I know there's an added cost, but performance parts don't perform to there best on lower grade gasoline. With the stage 3 cams I'm pretty sure you'll have the lockout cam phasers it would still be very driveable but you do lose some bottom end on the car. You can tune to compensate or you can stick some gears in and everyone's a happy camper

06GTwJUICE

The amount of money you'll spend getting that NA would probably be the same as investing (used loosely) in an entry level supercharger kit.


You could look at cams, I/H/E and a tune but I have no idea where that would leave you.

metroplex

The higher octane fuel is really only required for advanced ignition or higher compression, both of which yield some horsepower gains. The 87 octane actually burns cleaner but I want to keep it running on regular fuel just for bragging rights and better fuel economy. I'm kind of leery about going to higher gears... My 3.55s are already kind of gas guzzler gears, I'd probably look at 2.73s if I do touch the gears. Those would give insanely high MPG's based on my estimates.

No doubt a blower kit is the easiest and fastest way, but I want to keep it naturally aspirated but just boost the engine's volumetric efficiency w/o forced induction or NOS. It has to exhibit OEM-quality driveability running on 87 octane pump gas. I know it sounds like a tall order but it seems no one has really done this short of going to a crate motor.

EagleStroker

Well maybe this is what your looking for? These are my dyno sheets, that was my break in tune @ 378. I'm running stock 3.31 gears, get the same mileage I did before given I keep my foot out of it, and it runs better than it did from the factory. Given it's not stock internals but you seem to want to go n/a. And yes a 2.73 would get better mileage but it would kill performance, why drive a V8 Mustang if your that concerned about it?

I'm not really much higher compression than stock at 9 1/4:1, but in my experience with gas 87 has a lot more trash in it. I switched all my mowers/blowers/weedeaters over recently. Every time I would go to start one the 87 had the carb plugged up, switched and have had no more problems

jwgroovin

I'm close with bolt-ons, cams...

John

metroplex

Bragging rights: Imagine telling other gearheads that your Mustang has 350-400 crank hp (naturally aspirated) and gets 32 MPG on the highway using 87 octane gas. 1/4 mile ET and 0-60 MPH is great for the track, but I prefer to use my GT as a Grand Touring car, and the boost in MPG and power is greatly appreciated so long as it doesn't hurt driveability.

John: What kind of mods do you have?

EagleStroker: What kind of heads did you get? How do the Crane cams compare to the FRPP "Hot Rod" cams? The reason I ask is that the FRPP Hot Rod 4.6 3V makes 350 hp at the crank. According to FRPP, it gets +30 rwhp from the hot rod cams and +20 rwhp from the CNC ported heads.

EagleStroker

It's a custom grind blower style cam, I wanted the performance with the ability to upgrade later, it's nothing radical. I could bump the timing up some and it would make more power, I'll get new sheets up when I get my next tune. It's still not a full bolt on car either though. Between the coil packs, delete plates, and electric h20 pump I can pick up another 25-30hp easily from what I have seen. Also, if you want to go with crank #'s my car would be 438hp @ the crank with the 15% or around 415 @ 10% decrease stated earlier in the post.

My heads are the stocks, P&P'd, at the time I did the car they flowed better than anything on the market but that was a year and a half ago. If you want exact specs I'll have to dig them out of my desk at work.

You also have to realize though that they can make a dyno say whatever they want. Does it state those gains for the heads were n/a or blown? If n/a was it a lower compression motor? There are to many variables to be able to say what it's going to do on your car until it's on there IMO. Numbers also vary from dyno to dyno, and mine were taken on a Mustang brand dyno which is said to run around 7% lower than a Dynojet or it's counterpart.

As far as my numbers, I could have more to put it bluntly. I just decided I wanted to leave it mild for a while. You could jack up the compression to say 11:1 and be sitting well into the 4's. And it's also nice since where a blown/nitrous application burns more and more fuel as they take effect this is the same all the time. The fact that my mild tune is doing better than just about anything short of a blown car is pretty satisfying. That being said it's going back in for some goodies very soon

jwgroovin

Man, I've accumulated a bit. This is EVERYTHING, not just the ones that contribute to HP:

-Appearance-
1969 Boss 302 paint theme (hood, sides, spoilers, trunk lid)
New spoiler from Spoiler Depot
CDC chin spoiler
Hood pins
Redline Tuning hood struts

-Exhaust-
Mac axleback muffler
JBA h-pipe
JBA titanium coated longtube headers

-Engine-
C&L cold air intake with custom SCT XCAL2, 93 octane
Steeda delete plates
Comp Stage II cams and springs (#127300)
Steeda underdrive pullies

-Drivetrain-
Spec II+ clutch
Spec steel flywheel
Spydershaft Aluminum driveshaft
Metco front driveshaft loop
FRPP 4.10 gears
MGW shifter

-Suspension-
BMR strut tower brace
BMR boxed lower control arms and relocation brackets
BMR adjustable upper control arm
BMR tubular k-member
BMR radiator support/front swaybar delete bracket
BMR Xtreme Antiroll Bar
QA-1 adjustable race shocks
Steeda springs

-Wheels and Tires (Street)-
18" AFS Mach 1 wheels (18x9")
Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 tires 275/40-18 at all 4 corners

-Wheels and Tires (Track)-
17" Bullitt Wheel replicas (17x9")
Mickey Thompson 275/40-17 ET Streets Radials (26")

-Interior-
Autmeter DPSS stage 2 shift light gauge
S&S A-pillar dual gauge pod
Autometer water temperature gauge
Rear seat delete