rrobello

Just to name a few that I have driven and like better as an overall car (not just performance but also and mostly comparing the feel and comfort of these cars both driving and just sitting in them)... C230 (29KMSRP, 27Kinvoice), A4 2.0 T (28KMSRP, 26Kinvoice), IS250 6Speed Manual (29KMSRP, 26Kinvoice), G35 Sedan (31.4K, $28.9Kinvoice). Also the Mazda Speed 6 is a car that I would say would be equal to that of the looks and feel of the 3Series both inside and out, but comes with more power and better performance while still being a good deal cheaper in cost (27-28KMSRP, 25.8Kinvoice). The Suburu Legacy line is all around better in my opinion, starting at 21.6KMSRP, 20.3Kinvoice, the base model is slightly less on the performance aspect but still a comprable car as far as looks and comfort and dependabilty go, and for MUCH less in cost when compared to the base 2door 3series coupe at over 30K. For almost 10K in savings I'd take this one anyday over the 3Series. And the 2.5 GT Spec B Legacy being among the top of this line comes in at 33-34KMSRP, 31.5Kinvoice would womp all over the top of the line 3Series which would start you at over 35K without any options. And then we can look at the Volvo S40 T5 at 26-27KMSRP, 25Kinvoice. This car has more power, some areas of performance are better than the 3Series while some are just about the same, but the overall build and quality of the car is nicer, it gets better gas mileage and is safer and more realiable and all at a smaller price tag then the bottom end 3Series.

Some of the features that come standard or at least you have the option to get on the above cars that you can not get on the 3 series are: first aid kit, second row side airbags, universal garage door opener, turbocharger, seatbelt height adjuster, full size spare tire (or any spare for that matter), standard cd changer, telephone, Hands Free or Voice Activated Telephone, dvd player, Vehicle Theft Tracking/Notification, among many others.

The base 3 series 2 door coupe starts at 30,900 MSRP and invoice of 28,300 and the 4 doors start at 35K. I included the invoice because a lot of people can negotiate good deals on cars below MSRP and often get close to invoice (I never pay MSRP and always try to get the car as close to invoice as possible). Both the Audi and the Mercedes get better gas mileage as well. The Lexus comes with a 70Kmile powertrain warranty as well as the typical 50k normal warranty like the others. For another $800 you can add the multitronic to the Audi and this one even gets better gas mileage than the standard setup. Heck for 31K you can get the Audi A4 Quatro with tiptronic. The G35 Sedan while it may be slightly more expensive at MSRP the invoice it cheaper and thus you have more room to negoitiate and more likely would end up with it at the same cost as the 3Series, but you would have much more HP and Torque, a much faster car, a nicer looking, all around better performing vehicle with a better warranty and realiabilty factor.

Would you like me to continue or is this enough for you?

SurfnSoCal

oh....what's the word I am looking for....ummm.....

AnotherMustangMan

So you believe the 3 to essentially be the worst car in its class?

rrobello

Like Ive said before, not the worse car in its class as it stands alone before adding in prices to the equation, but when you do add the prices in I do think it is one of the lesser deals IMO. It is, again IMO, a comprable car to some of the much less expensive ones in its class but costs a good deal more and for this reason I do not consider it a good buy. My original words of it is crap, I guess were said too hastily and without support so I can understand why it would be viewed as an idiotic statement. I was merely trying to get a point across dramatically and do so by getting straight to it by being over the top. Obviously when compared to ALL cars BMW doesnt make crap, but IMO the 3Series is very poor quality especially for being a BMW.

EDIT: I guess what I am trying to say is that when I am (or have been) driving one, it just doesnt feel like I am driving a BMW, but more like I am driving something along the lines of a Mazda or Honda, that is all.

GhostGT

Who are you kidding? BMW service "second to none?" BMW, by almost every single owner I know (including my dad), is one of the worst companies when it comes to service. My dad had a 330ci, and every time something went wrong in the car (three "Check Engline Light" incidents in four months, burning smell from engine bay, an eventual fire in the engine bay ) BMW would literally either try to blame my dad, keep the car for a LONG time, or charge us for BS excuses.

I went to pick the car up when we still had it, and the rep spoke to me for about 10 minutes, and asked me if anyone had tampered with the engine bay, and that it would void the warranty. I repeatedly told them that nothing had been touched, but for some reason, they really wanted to believe that we had messed up.

My uncle used to have a 7-series. It would sit at the dealership for one month before they'd give him a call back.

Same with one of my good friends. She has a 325i, and she's been basically living at the dealer, and they treat her and the car like poop.

Ford service, on the other hand, has been one of the best experiences for me, and my dad, too. Galpin has been GREAT with any problems, questions, concerns I've had, and my modification installations, fix-ups, and check-ups have been so perfect, I keep going back everytime.

rrobello

I had a 525 for a short (real short) while before the 540 and nothing but problems, everyone I know that has anything less then the 540+line has had major issues and even nonstop minor ones, especially anyone I know that has ever owned any 3Series. BMW doesnt care about the lower half of their products and it shows, the cars are poor quality and one of the reasons why I used a harsh word like "crap" to describe them. And as for the dealerships repairing them, total nightmare. You almost always have to take it to some overpriced BMW specialist mechanic elsewhere and get it in the **** when the bill comes. However I havent heard many if any that I can recall horror stories about anything that costs more than 50K to buy from them. I am glad someone else here has some real experience with "expensive" cars that can back me up.

Hollywood_North GT

While I certainly agree that BMWs are overrated somewhat, the 3-Series is their most important vehicle to the company's financial success (they sell more 3-Series than any other). If you care to research a little more, you'll also discover that the 3-Series is considered "the" standard for overall driveability and handling dynamics in its class by almost every automotive journalist in the world - it consistently bests everything put up against it, including all the vehicles you mentioned above.

Is it overpriced and somewhat less than stellar in terms of dependability? Sure. But you're way overreaching when you use the word "crap" to describe it.

rrobello

the V6 Mustang is the most sold stang for ford and is vital to ford, so what? doesnt mean its a kick **** car or even any good? (dont jump on me I am not saying it is a bad car, just simply stating that because a car is the main seller for a manufactuer it does not mean that it is a good car, simply that the average person {who by the way in this country is a total dolt nor knows anything about cars} fell for the advertising and wanted to keep up with the Joneses and bought that darn thing).

as for "it consistently best[ing] everything put up against it, including all the vehicles [I] mentioned above" where did you get that info? it took me all of 5 seconds to find one major source that says otherwise.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....&page_number=9

here road and track actually compares it to the other all wheel drive cars in its class that I did mention and ranks it overall 3rd, but this is also someones oppinion (whom works for a major publication, which relies on money, of which most come from the companies whos cars they are reviewing, these things tend to be slightly biased to say the least). But none the less still someones opinion, if you look long enough you will find someone that will say that it is better then Ferraris and someone else who will say it is worse than a Scion. But again my evaluation of this car wasnt solely based on its performance, but its overall craftsmanship, including its looks, feel, comfort, realiability, safety, features and how it just makes me feel when sitting inside the thing. And then after all of this I compared the costs of similar cars and to me this lineup falls short, but you are entitled to your own opinion.

the comparison between 7 of the cars I mentioned as compared by road and track.....
0-60 a 3way tie for second to last
1/4mile 2way tie for second to last
slalom 2nd to last
breaking 80-0 tied for second to last
fuel economy 4th place
driving excitement 2nd to last
engine tied for 2nd to last
exterior styling 4th place
interior styling tied for 4th place
luggage space 4th place

once all done it (according to road and track) was ranked 3rd; not besting all of what I mentioned, and they did not compare all the cars I mentioned and again this is "subjective" as they state, to someone else it might be better it might be worse.

and finally I've already stated that my use of "crap" was indeed done in haste without explaining and thus could be seen as a stupid comment, also Ive pointed out that I was trying to make a statement by being straight to the point and over the top with my language so as to get my point across.....do any of you actually read what I say or are you just being idiots by arguing with me without listening?

GhostGT

I'm afraid Rich is right....again.


The 3er is BMW's flagship sedan, and other companies always try to mimick it and test against it, but who says its the best? If anyone cares to actually READ the points being made by Robello, then you'd see why you have no chance of arguing against the points made.

Hollywood_North GT

Actually, WRONG...again. Read and learn:

http://autos.canada.com/news/story.h...a-e123a1068e96
So what did the group come up with as a winner for 2006? Interestingly, it was one of the most widely admired products in the automotive universe and one that is sold just about everywhere - the BMW 3-Series... It's a great product in every way and the WCoY people won't be getting too much flak from those involved in other contests.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...1/pageId=68285
Though its speed through the slalom was just 1 mph more than the Lexus', the BMW felt more confident, providing plenty of feedback to the driver and keeping the stability control on a long enough leash to allow an experienced pilot to push the car. The same is true on the road, where the 330i simply felt more connected when pushed hard. By contrast the IS 350, though capable and composed, felt like its steering was a remote control, and its stability control system was overly eager to take matters out of the driver's hands and into its own.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=106052
Honestly, as wonderful as both cars are, choosing between the two wasn't as hard as we thought it would be. The BMW proved to be superior in nearly every way. Sure, it's a good bit more expensive, but it's also faster, it handles better, has superior brakes, is roomier and, to our eyes, is more attractive.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=104670
Nevertheless, BMW aficionados will feel right at home in this new car, even if that means 99-cent chalupa lunches at Taco Bell to make the payments. Meanwhile, BMW's competitors will realize they haven't aimed high enough...again.

http://www.autospies.com/article/ind...0&categoryId=1

Here endeth the lesson.

GhostGT

Actually, you just used three pieces of information from one source, and that source is Edmunds. Hmm... BMW + $$$ = Edmunds

The fact that companies and websites such as Edmunds suck up to BMW like that doesn't mean jack when it comes to the issue at hand we are talking about. You have absolutely no point to make and are probably just trying to defend your mom's bimmer.

BMW service sucks from where I come from, and their cars are far from reliable when compared to Fords (Again, coming from MY own experience with both cars AND dozens of friends).





Bore us with some more brown-nosing, will you?

rrobello

Ok, so like I said it is all a matter of ones own opinions. We can continue going back and forth matching point for point which periodicals liked the car and which ones didn't. I do not really care what others think about it. It's like seeing a movie that a critic thinks is bad, eventually if you ask enough critics youre going to get your quote for the tv commercials saying that so and so said it was the best movie ever; when in the long run I still need to see the movie to make up my own fricken mind instead of letting someone else do it for me.

Why can't we just agree to disagree? You apparently like the car and I don't. You would be comfortable spending 30K+ purchasing the vehicle and I'd rather buy a Mazda Speed 6 for less money. Who cares? It still doesn't warrant AnotherMustangMan calling me an idiot just because he disagrees. I explained myself as to why I do not like the 3Series as well as admit that my saying it is "crap" was a bit hasty and rash without an explaination and understand how it can construed as an idiotic statement; but I did eventually explain myself. Whereas AnotherMustangMan has done nothing but continue to insult me with no clarification as to why, other than I am an idiot because I have "a position contrary to [his] own" or am "a conservative," and the best reason he can give to not doing so is because he is lazy; all the while making very non-humorous jokes in bad taste about being an orphan.

So instead of picking apart the quotes you posted, which I can, I am gonna try to leave this as peacefully as possible. You can have your victory if you'd like. You are right and I am wrong. The 3 Series BMWs are by far the most superior car on the road and are a bargain starting at just over $30,000. I unfortunately am an idiot and do not like it for some crazy reason. Enjoy your rides in your 3 Series all the way to the mechanic.

Hollywood_North GT

Ohhhhh, now I'm starting to get it: you don't happen to LIKE what Edmunds had to say, so you're going to blame them for their honest, professional opinions, because somehow, "they're more in bed with BMW than Road & Track, Motor Trend or Car and Driver."

Got it.

Hollywood_North GT

Works for me.

Actually, I won't, because I would never own one. They're overpriced and overrated, IMHO. But hardly "crap," as my quoted references prove.

Louie

So, what have we learned from this thread so far?

1. All cars with less HP and more expensive than the Mustang are crap.

2. All cars with more HP and more expensive than the Mustang are crap.

3. All cars with less HP and less expensive than the Mustang are crap.

4. Cars with more HP and less expensive than the Mustang are not crap. (ummm.... how many can you name?)

5. The Mustang is the best car.

6. People have very "elastic" frames of reference and enjoy comparing apples with oranges.

And now, here are my questions to fuel the ongoing fire:

1. Why is a 300-HP, 3-valve V8 better than a 333-HP, 4-valve I6?

2. Why is a rear live axle better than an IRS?

3. Why is the stock M3 $15K+ more expensive than the stock Mustang GT?

4. Why is the stock M3 nowhere near close the performance of the similarly priced Corvette C6?

5. How much money needs to be invested in performance and handling mods on a Mustang GT to enable it to beat an M3 in any kind of race? Now, add that to the GT's MSRP and notice you're still below the M3's MSRP.

Come on people, you can't compare just the price, just the comfort, just the handling or just the performance of 2 cars and then call the loser "piles of crap" and the winner "best bang for buck". Both the GT and the M3 are sports coupes, but are so different in so many aspects that no accurate comparison can be made. Personally, I could have bought the M3 (or even an SL500) but instead I chose the Mustang for its "coolness". I didn't want the best car I could afford, I just wanted the coolest. And that, my friends, is purely a matter of personal preference.

There you go, my contribution to this thread. Now, back to munching on that popcorn!

mudshuvel319

So true.
The problem is that the M3 and Mustang are not in the same class. They are both fast, but that's it. It's really tough to say which is 'better', because each one offers features the others can't.

The Mustang: low price, muscle car looks, great acceleration, huge aftermarket selection, the 'coolness' appeal, more torque

The M3: the 'I drive a BMW' appeal some people desire, exclusitivity, handling, more power, more 'mature' looks

Personally, I wouldnt pay the extra money for a 3 series, because they don't get my blood racing, but that's just me. I also wouldnt fork over almost 50 grand for an M3, because that's a huge amount of money. The M3 is nice, but not that nice.

rrobello

FINALLY SOMEONE GETS IT!!!! LOL!

Because like you said its COOLER!!!!!

When Drag racing it is better, because it allows you to hookup better and handle more torque, the IRS is better on a road course, but in most cars the improvement in the handling from the IRS is barely noticeable during normal daily driving because most people dont drive their cars that hard and dangerously on busy streets not designed to race around turns on. It does however make the ride feel a bit more comfortable while going into and out of turns during normal driving and it is lighter, but since there are more people that drag from light to light to prove themselves then there are that race through windy roads still open to other traffic, I think as a daily driver the best setup is the liveaxle for those people "with something to prove."

Because it is a BMW!

Because it is a BMW (import) and the vette is a domestic car.

not much and definately less then the cost of an M3.

I wasnt comparing the cars stat by stat, I looked at everything and compared them as a whole, including the price. "Best Bang for Buck" is a good thing and Ive seen it in used in lots of car reviews. "Piles of crap" they still say it just not in such harsh words, what else would you call the loser?

rrobello

NO ONE WAS COMPARING THE M3 TO THE MUSTANG!!! NOR WERE WE COMPARING THE 3 Series TO THE MUSTANG. JUST THE MERITS OF THE SERIES ON ITS OWN AND COMPARED TO OTHER CARS IN ITS CLASS!!!!

the only comparison to the cars came from the original topic of this thread of who has beating what, and that still wasnt an all around comparison of the cars, just sharing stories of pissing contests on the street.

rrobello

LOL all that and we have the same opinion as far as owning one. Crap was my word to describe how I felt about them, I did say that BMW doesnt make anything that is truly crap (although Ive seen more BMW lemons then any other company), but IMO when compared to other cars that's what I think of the 3 Series. And your refrences didn't "PROVE" anything, they were simply another reporters opinion, not FACTS!

GhostGT

Seriously, you people are getting way out of line here. No one is comparing any M3 to any Mustang, the f*****g discussion here is about the 3 series and the Mustang. And again, people LOVE to bring up off-topic comments and think that they just won some e-battle.


I can so see BC_Shelby just sitting there, looking like this when he even admits that he doesn't have a 3 series. Or a bmw for that matter. Shelby, leave this argument to people who actually HAD experience with the cars, and don't stick to copy-pasting useless links to what other companies thought about it.




The truth of the matter is, Edmunds is so far up BMW's *** that I can't tell where Edmunds ends and BMW begins. Edmunds is KNOWN to be one of the most pro-bmw websites along with how JD Power and Associates used to hand out awards to any company that could dish out the dough.


So please, all of you who think this is an M3 discussion, and all of you who think that the 3 series is God, and ALL of you who think you have a point here, you don't.