Camaro & Challenger..not to worry...
2/26/08, 08:54 PM
#21
And think of it THIS way - if you are talking ordinary everyday encounters
ON THE STREET, some dude pulls up next to you in a Challenger or Camaro trying to flex, I guarantee he's not going to say "hey I know this one road full of twisties - follow me over there so we can shoot through them and I can school you"
Its going to be a stoplight or a highway run and handling benefits of the IRS will not be a factor
ON THE STREET, some dude pulls up next to you in a Challenger or Camaro trying to flex, I guarantee he's not going to say "hey I know this one road full of twisties - follow me over there so we can shoot through them and I can school you"
Its going to be a stoplight or a highway run and handling benefits of the IRS will not be a factor
2/26/08, 09:03 PM
#22
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And think of it THIS way - if you are talking ordinary everyday encounters
ON THE STREET, some dude pulls up next to you in a Challenger or Camaro trying to flex, I guarantee he's not going to say "hey I know this one road full of twisties - follow me over there so we can shoot through them and I can school you"
Its going to be a stoplight or a highway run and handling benefits of the IRS will not be a factor
ON THE STREET, some dude pulls up next to you in a Challenger or Camaro trying to flex, I guarantee he's not going to say "hey I know this one road full of twisties - follow me over there so we can shoot through them and I can school you"
Its going to be a stoplight or a highway run and handling benefits of the IRS will not be a factor
2/26/08, 09:09 PM
#23
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If youre counting on stomping these things, or even really hanging with them with anything less than FI or nitrous, youre gonna be a very very sad man when they finally hit the streets.Might be a little tougher than you think. I cant seem to find the link, but i remember some speed shop got their hands on an LS3 vette right when they came out and with a pretty moderate cam, longtubes, and a quick tune the thing put down something like 475rwhp (being that the LS3 is already underrated). Im sure there will be plenty of aftermarket support too for a car that could be made to have ~550bhp (or more) for what will probably fall somewhere in the low $30,000 range, all in.
2/26/08, 10:44 PM
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Nobody really knows what these cars will do when they hit the streets but if past history says anything my money is on the Camaro being the quicker car and really should have the overall better platform.I mean it's brand new and was built for the sole purpose of being better than the Mustang.
That being said I feel it will be the more expensive car, and won't look as fresh as the 10' Mustang because we have been seeing both the Challenger and Camaro concept for some time. I have been a long time Mustang guy but i'm very critical with Ford's rumors of new engines... It seems Ford's product plans are never launched on time. Think about it current gen platform was supposed to be launched for 04' and the next get was supposed to be launched in 09'
That being said I feel it will be the more expensive car, and won't look as fresh as the 10' Mustang because we have been seeing both the Challenger and Camaro concept for some time. I have been a long time Mustang guy but i'm very critical with Ford's rumors of new engines... It seems Ford's product plans are never launched on time. Think about it current gen platform was supposed to be launched for 04' and the next get was supposed to be launched in 09'
2/27/08, 08:10 AM
#25
Might be a little tougher than you think. I cant seem to find the link, but i remember some speed shop got their hands on an LS3 vette right when they came out and with a pretty moderate cam, longtubes, and a quick tune the thing put down something like 475rwhp (being that the LS3 is already underrated). Im sure there will be plenty of aftermarket support too for a car that could be made to have ~550bhp (or more) for what will probably fall somewhere in the low $30,000 range, all in.
First, thus far there has been no indication that the LS3 will be the base V8 for the new Camaro. And frankly, if GM is smart they'll use the L78 as the base V8 until such a time as the LS3 is needed in that role due to competition etc. Doing so would allow for a slightly wider range of models right out of the gate leaving the LS3 for a Z28 SS counterpart to a base L78 powered Z28. In this way Chevy could charge more money for the LS3 powered version, and right now money is something all of the big three could use.
Also, we don't know what pricing for a base model V8 Camaro is going to look like whatever engine ends up under the hood. 'Close to Mustang pricing' is about as good as we've gotten thus far, and that is pretty vague. A LS3 powered base V8 model Camaro which starts at an attractive enough msrp to lend itself to a low 30k, 550hp car with minor mods is arguably on the very optimistic side of all plausible scenarios
2/27/08, 09:42 AM
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Mustang has no competition--it has a lot of imitators.
The new Challenger SRT8 weighs 4,140 pounds, the heaviest ponycar in the history of the Earth, and looks virtually identical to the original Challengers--only the American Motors Javelin went extinct faster than the original Challenger. And the Challenger's interior is rental fleet Caliber! Furthermore, the original Challenger offered a 440 V8 and the real Hemi as engine options--at a time when premium gasoline was under $.80/gallon...
The new Camaro is a stretched and widened 1971 Toyota Celica ST with the center pair of headlights removed and the chromed bumper painted to match the bodycolor. The transvestite spaceship interior is a quantum leap in retrofugly. The one-size-fits-all chassis is supposed to also accommodate a sedan, an Escape/RAV4 imitator, an xB imitator, and perhaps a station wagon. All the chassis compromises needed to accommodate each of these diverse models will go to shiite when a big power/big torque V8 gets dropped under the hood--remember what a "great" chassis the Pinto hatchback/station wagon provided for the '74 Mustang IIs? After all, the resurrected GTO was essentially identical to the new Camaro: a two-door four-passenger coupe with a big pushrodder under the hood, a six-speed manual, IRS, and RWD--yet Pontiac only sold 40,044 of them in three long model years even with massive discounts and an increase in horsepower. In the first thirty business days of 2007, more Mustangs were sold than GTOs were sold throughout the entire year of 2006!
Some of us will only accept the genuine item--and we demand Mustangs. For others, an imitation is good enough--and they'll settle for Camaros and Challengers.
'Nuff said!
Greg "Eights" Ates
The new Challenger SRT8 weighs 4,140 pounds, the heaviest ponycar in the history of the Earth, and looks virtually identical to the original Challengers--only the American Motors Javelin went extinct faster than the original Challenger. And the Challenger's interior is rental fleet Caliber! Furthermore, the original Challenger offered a 440 V8 and the real Hemi as engine options--at a time when premium gasoline was under $.80/gallon...
The new Camaro is a stretched and widened 1971 Toyota Celica ST with the center pair of headlights removed and the chromed bumper painted to match the bodycolor. The transvestite spaceship interior is a quantum leap in retrofugly. The one-size-fits-all chassis is supposed to also accommodate a sedan, an Escape/RAV4 imitator, an xB imitator, and perhaps a station wagon. All the chassis compromises needed to accommodate each of these diverse models will go to shiite when a big power/big torque V8 gets dropped under the hood--remember what a "great" chassis the Pinto hatchback/station wagon provided for the '74 Mustang IIs? After all, the resurrected GTO was essentially identical to the new Camaro: a two-door four-passenger coupe with a big pushrodder under the hood, a six-speed manual, IRS, and RWD--yet Pontiac only sold 40,044 of them in three long model years even with massive discounts and an increase in horsepower. In the first thirty business days of 2007, more Mustangs were sold than GTOs were sold throughout the entire year of 2006!
Some of us will only accept the genuine item--and we demand Mustangs. For others, an imitation is good enough--and they'll settle for Camaros and Challengers.
'Nuff said!
Greg "Eights" Ates
Last edited by Eights; 3/6/08 at 08:42 AM.
2/27/08, 10:19 AM
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Also, we don't know what pricing for a base model V8 Camaro is going to look like whatever engine ends up under the hood. 'Close to Mustang pricing' is about as good as we've gotten thus far, and that is pretty vague. A LS3 powered base V8 model Camaro which starts at an attractive enough msrp to lend itself to a low 30k, 550hp car with minor mods is arguably on the very optimistic side of all plausible scenarios
As for putting an L78 into a base V8, I think that would hinder their initial sales too badly, which might result in it not even sticking around long enough to make it to an LS3 variant, which would seem to be a pretty high price to pay for a little extra profit down the road. Also, I would assume whatever V6 they decide to stuff under the hood will be around 300hp, so assuming they downrate the LS3 to around 410hp or so, to differentiate it from the Vette (which i have no doubt theyll do), it would leave very little room for a V8 that people would actually want. Obviously this is all speculation at this point, but thats just the way i see it going down.
Mustang has no competition--it has a lot of imitators.
The new Challenger SRT8 weighs 4,140 pounds, the heaviest ponycar in the history of the Earth, and looks virtually identical to the original Challengers--only the American Motors Javelin went extinct faster than the original Challenger. And the Challenger's interior is rental fleet Caliber! And the original Challenger offered a 440 V8 and the real Hemi as engine options--at a time when premium gasoline was under $.80/gallon...
The new Camaro is a stretched and widened 1971 Toyota Celica ST with the center pair of headlights removed and the chromed bumper painted to match the bodycolor. The transvestite spaceship interior is a quantum leap in retrofugly. The one-size-fits-all chassis is supposed to also accommodate a sedan, an Escape/RAV4 imitator, an xB imitator, and perhaps a station wagon. All the chassis compromises needed to accommodate each of these diverse models will go to shiite when a big power/big torque V8 gets dropped under the hood--remember what a "great" chassis the Pinto hatchback/station wagon provided for the '74 Mustang IIs? After all, the resurrected GTO was essentially identical to the new Camaro: a two-door four-passenger coupe with a big pushrodder under the hood, a six-speed manual, and RWD--yet Pontiac only sold 40,044 of them in three long model years even with massive discounts and an increase in horsepower. In the first thirty business days of 2007, more Mustangs were sold than GTOs were sold throughout the entire year of 2006!
Some of us will only accept the genuine item--and we demand Mustangs. For others, an imitation is good enough--and they'll settle for Camaros and Challengers.
'Nuff said!
Greg "Eights" Ates
The new Challenger SRT8 weighs 4,140 pounds, the heaviest ponycar in the history of the Earth, and looks virtually identical to the original Challengers--only the American Motors Javelin went extinct faster than the original Challenger. And the Challenger's interior is rental fleet Caliber! And the original Challenger offered a 440 V8 and the real Hemi as engine options--at a time when premium gasoline was under $.80/gallon...
The new Camaro is a stretched and widened 1971 Toyota Celica ST with the center pair of headlights removed and the chromed bumper painted to match the bodycolor. The transvestite spaceship interior is a quantum leap in retrofugly. The one-size-fits-all chassis is supposed to also accommodate a sedan, an Escape/RAV4 imitator, an xB imitator, and perhaps a station wagon. All the chassis compromises needed to accommodate each of these diverse models will go to shiite when a big power/big torque V8 gets dropped under the hood--remember what a "great" chassis the Pinto hatchback/station wagon provided for the '74 Mustang IIs? After all, the resurrected GTO was essentially identical to the new Camaro: a two-door four-passenger coupe with a big pushrodder under the hood, a six-speed manual, and RWD--yet Pontiac only sold 40,044 of them in three long model years even with massive discounts and an increase in horsepower. In the first thirty business days of 2007, more Mustangs were sold than GTOs were sold throughout the entire year of 2006!
Some of us will only accept the genuine item--and we demand Mustangs. For others, an imitation is good enough--and they'll settle for Camaros and Challengers.
'Nuff said!
Greg "Eights" Ates
As for your argument that theyre gonna suck because the platform has multiple uses, that doesnt hold much water, a lot of manufacturers are doing that these days and making cars that are more fun to drive, longer lasting, and more efficient than ever. The GTO went extinct mainly because it was so **** boring looking that it could be mistaken for a $10,000 econo-****box cavalier.
2/27/08, 10:22 AM
#28
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I agree that the Mustang will end up winning the second muscle car war but I kinda disagree with some of your opinions. I don't see why you would pick on the Challenger for being retro, The Mustang looks as much like a 67-68 Mustang as the Challenger looks like a 70'. Also you say that the interior is cheap but it is actually the same basic interior as the Charger which to many has a better quality cabin then the current Mustang. We shouldn't cast stones, because to be honest Ford still needs to improve their interiors a great deal. On the other hand I do agree the car is way to heavy to be a true Mustang competitor.... I think this car will have a 5 year run and will be more of a cruising car.
As far as your GTO comparison and I have debated this in the past..... the car's bland looks were to blame for it's poor sales. The GTO was actually a very well put together car that in overall performance stats was the more competent car both on the drag strip and in handling next to the GT, though you may not like the look of the next gen Camaro the buying public loves it and I think this new Camaro will be much more successful than people think it will be. It will probably be the more expensive car and will sell in smaller numbers but I have a feeling it will kick around for a while.
I guess the bottom line is we have to wait to see how this will really play out. I think it's kinda closed minded to automatically write these cars off before they even go into production. Rumors are that Ford is scrambling to come up with new stuff for the 10' Mustang so it seems that Ford sees these cars as legit threats as they should......... I don't work for Ford so I don't care what really happens I'm just gonna buy what I want.... the best car for the money (probably will be an SE Mustang) either way I'm glad as a consumer to have more options.
As far as your GTO comparison and I have debated this in the past..... the car's bland looks were to blame for it's poor sales. The GTO was actually a very well put together car that in overall performance stats was the more competent car both on the drag strip and in handling next to the GT, though you may not like the look of the next gen Camaro the buying public loves it and I think this new Camaro will be much more successful than people think it will be. It will probably be the more expensive car and will sell in smaller numbers but I have a feeling it will kick around for a while.
I guess the bottom line is we have to wait to see how this will really play out. I think it's kinda closed minded to automatically write these cars off before they even go into production. Rumors are that Ford is scrambling to come up with new stuff for the 10' Mustang so it seems that Ford sees these cars as legit threats as they should......... I don't work for Ford so I don't care what really happens I'm just gonna buy what I want.... the best car for the money (probably will be an SE Mustang) either way I'm glad as a consumer to have more options.
2/27/08, 10:30 AM
#29
Im sure that an LS3 equipped camaro will cost a few grand more than a V8 mustang, i was just estimating around 30k (which doesnt seem unreasonable as the LS1 camaros were even closer in price to the old 4.6 2V mustang GTs, which were riding on an archaic powertrain), plus a couple of grand for the aforementioned simple mods.
As for putting an L78 into a base V8, I think that would hinder their initial sales too badly, which might result in it not even sticking around long enough to make it to an LS3 variant, which would seem to be a pretty high price to pay for a little extra profit down the road. Also, I would assume whatever V6 they decide to stuff under the hood will be around 300hp, so assuming they downrate the LS3 to around 410hp or so, to differentiate it from the Vette (which i have no doubt theyll do), it would leave very little room for a V8 that people would actually want. Obviously this is all speculation at this point, but thats just the way i see it going down.
As for putting an L78 into a base V8, I think that would hinder their initial sales too badly, which might result in it not even sticking around long enough to make it to an LS3 variant, which would seem to be a pretty high price to pay for a little extra profit down the road. Also, I would assume whatever V6 they decide to stuff under the hood will be around 300hp, so assuming they downrate the LS3 to around 410hp or so, to differentiate it from the Vette (which i have no doubt theyll do), it would leave very little room for a V8 that people would actually want. Obviously this is all speculation at this point, but thats just the way i see it going down.
2/27/08, 10:56 AM
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The GTO went extinct mainly because it was so **** boring looking that it could be mistaken for a $10,000 econo-****box cavalier.
Anyway, I dove one and thought it was a decent car but bought the Mustang instead. A strong drivetrain is all well and good but like you said, styling is important too.
2/27/08, 11:01 AM
#32
While attractive the Challenger looks like a new car designed to look like an old car. The design isn't timeless even if it is pretty, and the result is somewhat cartoonish and, as V10 pointed out, a bit toy-like. The current Mustang is by no means perfect, the current incarnation falls into the same category as the 996 iteration of the 911 did IMO. Nice looking and suitably reminiscent of the original but with considerable room for improvement. Next go 'round for the Mustang I'm hoping for something more like the follow on 997 which took everything right about the 996 stylistically speaking while addressing all of the shortcomings.
Originally Posted by 97GT03SVT
As far as your GTO comparison and I have debated this in the past..... the car's bland looks were to blame for it's poor sales. The GTO was actually a very well put together car that in overall performance stats was the more competent car both on the drag strip and in handling next to the GT
As a curious aside....I personally know two people who seriously contemplated purchasing a 2005 GTO both of whom were seriously dismayed by the lack of a sunroof....for one of those two it was genuinely the deal breaker. While I love a nice sunroof I have to say the lack of the same wouldn't stop me from buying a car I was otherwise happy with. Perhaps GM underestimated how important certain features would be to this cars average customer?
Originally Posted by 93SVT07GT
though you may not like the look of the next gen Camaro the buying public loves it and I think this new Camaro will be much more successful than people think it will be. It will probably be the more expensive car and will sell in smaller numbers but I have a feeling it will kick around for a while.
Originally Posted by 93SVT07GT
Rumors are that Ford is scrambling to come up with new stuff for the 10' Mustang so it seems that Ford sees these cars as legit threats as they should......... I don't work for Ford so I don't care what really happens I'm just gonna buy what I want.... the best car for the money (probably will be an SE Mustang) either way I'm glad as a consumer to have more options.
In either case Ford was wrong, competition or no high volume coupes have a limited shelf life, even the best of them, and Ford is pushing the initial S197 about a year further out than it's sell by date IMO. And as we can see with the upcoming Camaro the honeymoon is over. Not only does Ford have tighter CAFE standards and ongoing high gas prices to deal with in the future they have to figure out how to beat/improve the same while putting up a viable fight against the Camaro which poses a noticeable threat to Mustang sales volume numbers even if GM never moves more than 100k in a year.
2/28/08, 09:30 AM
#33
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The L76 (the L78 is an old GM big block 396) is basically a detuned LS2 with the heads off an LS3 (some of the best in the industry). Even if it is the base engine in the Camaro it has the cajones to compete with anything currently in it's class and room to grow to compete with anything down the pipeline. It is possible for a 3 tier V8 engine in which case should look like L76, LS3, LS8. My bet is the LS3 will get a stronger nod for a base than the L76. The L76's only wild card is that it is base in the G8 GT. The GXP gets the LS3. The Camaro and the G8 may be very closely related but they are not that related.
The Camaro is meant to be the bigger performer of the two. Even if both are similarly equipped the Camaro should still outperform the G8 given the few hundred pound weight difference. However, just shooting off my educated guess is that GM is not going to want the G8 putting a sales damper in it's Camaro sales given the high hopes it has on the Camaro. Equipping the G8 and Camaro similarly will surely halve the sales of the Camaro a la Fbody twins and I am quite sure GM wants both to sell well individually not as a whole like the F twins. Putting identical drivetrain choices in the two would make them competitors to the market.
While the LS7 is not an option in the Camaro the LSA or LS8 is certainly a high possibility in a "special model" al la GT500, which of course might have the same ADM problems as the GT500 as well.
The Camaro is meant to be the bigger performer of the two. Even if both are similarly equipped the Camaro should still outperform the G8 given the few hundred pound weight difference. However, just shooting off my educated guess is that GM is not going to want the G8 putting a sales damper in it's Camaro sales given the high hopes it has on the Camaro. Equipping the G8 and Camaro similarly will surely halve the sales of the Camaro a la Fbody twins and I am quite sure GM wants both to sell well individually not as a whole like the F twins. Putting identical drivetrain choices in the two would make them competitors to the market.
While the LS7 is not an option in the Camaro the LSA or LS8 is certainly a high possibility in a "special model" al la GT500, which of course might have the same ADM problems as the GT500 as well.
2/28/08, 10:49 AM
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2/28/08, 01:39 PM
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I agree that the Mustang will end up winning the second muscle car war but I kinda disagree with some of your opinions. I don't see why you would pick on the Challenger for being retro, The Mustang looks as much like a 67-68 Mustang as the Challenger looks like a 70'. Also you say that the interior is cheap but it is actually the same basic interior as the Charger which to many has a better quality cabin then the current Mustang. We shouldn't cast stones, because to be honest Ford still needs to improve their interiors a great deal. On the other hand I do agree the car is way to heavy to be a true Mustang competitor.... I think this car will have a 5 year run and will be more of a cruising car.
As far as your GTO comparison and I have debated this in the past..... the car's bland looks were to blame for it's poor sales. The GTO was actually a very well put together car that in overall performance stats was the more competent car both on the drag strip and in handling next to the GT, though you may not like the look of the next gen Camaro the buying public loves it and I think this new Camaro will be much more successful than people think it will be. It will probably be the more expensive car and will sell in smaller numbers but I have a feeling it will kick around for a while.
I guess the bottom line is we have to wait to see how this will really play out. I think it's kinda closed minded to automatically write these cars off before they even go into production. Rumors are that Ford is scrambling to come up with new stuff for the 10' Mustang so it seems that Ford sees these cars as legit threats as they should......... I don't work for Ford so I don't care what really happens I'm just gonna buy what I want.... the best car for the money (probably will be an SE Mustang) either way I'm glad as a consumer to have more options.
As far as your GTO comparison and I have debated this in the past..... the car's bland looks were to blame for it's poor sales. The GTO was actually a very well put together car that in overall performance stats was the more competent car both on the drag strip and in handling next to the GT, though you may not like the look of the next gen Camaro the buying public loves it and I think this new Camaro will be much more successful than people think it will be. It will probably be the more expensive car and will sell in smaller numbers but I have a feeling it will kick around for a while.
I guess the bottom line is we have to wait to see how this will really play out. I think it's kinda closed minded to automatically write these cars off before they even go into production. Rumors are that Ford is scrambling to come up with new stuff for the 10' Mustang so it seems that Ford sees these cars as legit threats as they should......... I don't work for Ford so I don't care what really happens I'm just gonna buy what I want.... the best car for the money (probably will be an SE Mustang) either way I'm glad as a consumer to have more options.
The Charger's interior is considered to be plain, and the Challenger has managed to underwhelm even that. Not a surprise--the Mustang has no start-up costs that must be recovered through the MSRP of the Challenger & the Camaro since the Mustang has never gone out of production like those two have. Those costs have to be recovered while not pricing the product over the top of the market, so money has to be saved somewhere. Chrysler chose to save $$$ by offering a rental Caliber interior in the Challenger and by not reducing the weight of a chassis originally designed for a bigger vehicle--other than the weight savings of tossing out two unnecessary doors. My other point is that Chrysler chose to duplicate the looks of a car that went extinct brutally fast--even though back then the Challenger offered the 440 and the real Hemi (not the faux-Hemi of the current Challenger) as engine options and premium gasoline was free compared to the price premium gasoline will cost when the resurrected Challenger finally hits the dealerships. And imagine the effect a two-ton vehicle will have on the future V6 version. It's not pretty...
I ain't Nostradmus, but I see a serious problem here...
I'll hafta talk Camaro in another posting because time-out is bearing down like a tsunami.
Greg "Eights" Ates
2/28/08, 02:27 PM
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Golly! I typed up a "continuation" on why the GTO's quick demise was more than just its pregnant Cavalier appearance, but when I submitted it the dreaded time-out had already struck. Shiite.
Does anyone know a Mustang forum that's got the knowledgeable participants typically found here yet doesn't aggravate the peas out of you with time-outs? I'll respond there and post a link. This socks.
Does anyone know a Mustang forum that's got the knowledgeable participants typically found here yet doesn't aggravate the peas out of you with time-outs? I'll respond there and post a link. This socks.
2/28/08, 02:34 PM
#37
2/28/08, 05:33 PM
#38
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awesome point on the last GTO model. 2006 GTO with LS2 6.0L motor still was no match for the '05 mustang. C&D even compared both and Mustang GT won. the 0-60 was pretty much identical.
i dont think the new camaro is going to be any different in performance over the GTO. marginal at best.
i sorta like the GTO though cause in the used market an '06 GTO is really cheap to get and im so sure in 25 yrs, the '06 GTO will be worth some serious cash and a collectors dream. probaby feature on some car show too!
again, the challenger weighing 4100+ lbs is REDICULOUS!
i dont think the new camaro is going to be any different in performance over the GTO. marginal at best.
i sorta like the GTO though cause in the used market an '06 GTO is really cheap to get and im so sure in 25 yrs, the '06 GTO will be worth some serious cash and a collectors dream. probaby feature on some car show too!
again, the challenger weighing 4100+ lbs is REDICULOUS!
Mustang has no competition--it has a lot of imitators.
The new Challenger SRT8 weighs 4,140 pounds, the heaviest ponycar in the history of the Earth, and looks virtually identical to the original Challengers--only the American Motors Javelin went extinct faster than the original Challenger. And the Challenger's interior is rental fleet Caliber! And the original Challenger offered a 440 V8 and the real Hemi as engine options--at a time when premium gasoline was under $.80/gallon...
The new Camaro is a stretched and widened 1971 Toyota Celica ST with the center pair of headlights removed and the chromed bumper painted to match the bodycolor. The transvestite spaceship interior is a quantum leap in retrofugly. The one-size-fits-all chassis is supposed to also accommodate a sedan, an Escape/RAV4 imitator, an xB imitator, and perhaps a station wagon. All the chassis compromises needed to accommodate each of these diverse models will go to shiite when a big power/big torque V8 gets dropped under the hood--remember what a "great" chassis the Pinto hatchback/station wagon provided for the '74 Mustang IIs? After all, the resurrected GTO was essentially identical to the new Camaro: a two-door four-passenger coupe with a big pushrodder under the hood, a six-speed manual, IRS, and RWD--yet Pontiac only sold 40,044 of them in three long model years even with massive discounts and an increase in horsepower. In the first thirty business days of 2007, more Mustangs were sold than GTOs were sold throughout the entire year of 2006!
Some of us will only accept the genuine item--and we demand Mustangs. For others, an imitation is good enough--and they'll settle for Camaros and Challengers.
'Nuff said!
Greg "Eights" Ates
The new Challenger SRT8 weighs 4,140 pounds, the heaviest ponycar in the history of the Earth, and looks virtually identical to the original Challengers--only the American Motors Javelin went extinct faster than the original Challenger. And the Challenger's interior is rental fleet Caliber! And the original Challenger offered a 440 V8 and the real Hemi as engine options--at a time when premium gasoline was under $.80/gallon...
The new Camaro is a stretched and widened 1971 Toyota Celica ST with the center pair of headlights removed and the chromed bumper painted to match the bodycolor. The transvestite spaceship interior is a quantum leap in retrofugly. The one-size-fits-all chassis is supposed to also accommodate a sedan, an Escape/RAV4 imitator, an xB imitator, and perhaps a station wagon. All the chassis compromises needed to accommodate each of these diverse models will go to shiite when a big power/big torque V8 gets dropped under the hood--remember what a "great" chassis the Pinto hatchback/station wagon provided for the '74 Mustang IIs? After all, the resurrected GTO was essentially identical to the new Camaro: a two-door four-passenger coupe with a big pushrodder under the hood, a six-speed manual, IRS, and RWD--yet Pontiac only sold 40,044 of them in three long model years even with massive discounts and an increase in horsepower. In the first thirty business days of 2007, more Mustangs were sold than GTOs were sold throughout the entire year of 2006!
Some of us will only accept the genuine item--and we demand Mustangs. For others, an imitation is good enough--and they'll settle for Camaros and Challengers.
'Nuff said!
Greg "Eights" Ates
2/29/08, 08:01 AM
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97GT03SVT: Thank you for the prompt and courteous reply, and for sharing your excellent insights.
The Charger's interior is considered to be plain, and the Challenger has managed to underwhelm even that. Not a surprise--the Mustang has no start-up costs that must be recovered through the MSRP of the Challenger & the Camaro since the Mustang has never gone out of production like those two have. Those costs have to be recovered while not pricing the product over the top of the market, so money has to be saved somewhere. Chrysler chose to save $$$ by offering a rental Caliber interior in the Challenger and by not reducing the weight of a chassis originally designed for a bigger vehicle--other than the weight savings of tossing out two unnecessary doors. My other point is that Chrysler chose to duplicate the looks of a car that went extinct brutally fast--even though back then the Challenger offered the 440 and the real Hemi (not the faux-Hemi of the current Challenger) as engine options and premium gasoline was free compared to the price premium gasoline will cost when the resurrected Challenger finally hits the dealerships. And imagine the effect a two-ton vehicle will have on the future V6 version. It's not pretty...
I ain't Nostradmus, but I see a serious problem here...
I'll hafta talk Camaro in another posting because time-out is bearing down like a tsunami.
Greg "Eights" Ates
The Charger's interior is considered to be plain, and the Challenger has managed to underwhelm even that. Not a surprise--the Mustang has no start-up costs that must be recovered through the MSRP of the Challenger & the Camaro since the Mustang has never gone out of production like those two have. Those costs have to be recovered while not pricing the product over the top of the market, so money has to be saved somewhere. Chrysler chose to save $$$ by offering a rental Caliber interior in the Challenger and by not reducing the weight of a chassis originally designed for a bigger vehicle--other than the weight savings of tossing out two unnecessary doors. My other point is that Chrysler chose to duplicate the looks of a car that went extinct brutally fast--even though back then the Challenger offered the 440 and the real Hemi (not the faux-Hemi of the current Challenger) as engine options and premium gasoline was free compared to the price premium gasoline will cost when the resurrected Challenger finally hits the dealerships. And imagine the effect a two-ton vehicle will have on the future V6 version. It's not pretty...
I ain't Nostradmus, but I see a serious problem here...
I'll hafta talk Camaro in another posting because time-out is bearing down like a tsunami.
Greg "Eights" Ates
I guess we just have a conflict of opinions. I like the overall interior layout of the Challenger i'm not positive but it looks to be a direct fit with it's chassis siblings (Charger, Magnum). Though I understand your argument that the Mustang was able to cut costs because it never went out of production, the Challenger's platform was pretty much set only the sheet metal is new this car is basically a two door charger. Though I agree it is way to big and heavy for a pony car!
I understand your argument with the HEMI also but c'mon this engine is superior to the classic "real hemi" in every way. The new Hemi in my opinion is pure marketing genius by Mopar as the name itself sells product. And again I agree that the Challenger was not one of the sought after muscle cars of Mopar's heyday I would have preferred a Cuda or Roadrunner personally. I also agree that with it's weight and a weak v6 powering it will have poor results and I feel this will be a nitch vehical with a 5 yr life span at the max.
As far as the argument for the GTO goes there are many factors but performance was not one of them. Though I feel the bland styling was the key reason for it's failure, it's high price and dated chassis (came in to production is Australia in 97') were also factors and in my opinion another big part of it was that the public didn't view it as a "real GTO" Perhaps even a fresh name would have helped it I remember the Charger receiving some of the same backlash because it doesn't have the look of what a Charger should be.... I dunno if i'm being clear here but this is the best way I can explain my thoughts.
2/29/08, 08:50 AM
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awesome point on the last GTO model. 2006 GTO with LS2 6.0L motor still was no match for the '05 mustang. C&D even compared both and Mustang GT won. the 0-60 was pretty much identical.
i dont think the new camaro is going to be any different in performance over the GTO. marginal at best.
i sorta like the GTO though cause in the used market an '06 GTO is really cheap to get and im so sure in 25 yrs, the '06 GTO will be worth some serious cash and a collectors dream. probaby feature on some car show too!
again, the challenger weighing 4100+ lbs is REDICULOUS!
i dont think the new camaro is going to be any different in performance over the GTO. marginal at best.
i sorta like the GTO though cause in the used market an '06 GTO is really cheap to get and im so sure in 25 yrs, the '06 GTO will be worth some serious cash and a collectors dream. probaby feature on some car show too!
again, the challenger weighing 4100+ lbs is REDICULOUS!
Your kidding right? Say what you want about styling, sales, whatever, performance wise the GTO beat the mustang. They picked the mustang based on a large point addition because of asthetics not performance. I have that issue tally up the points and read it again,
"The Goat outran the Pony, but those are still serious numbers for not-so-serious cash. "- Car and Driver
If you are banking on a stock GT outrunning a stock camaro based anywhere near the GTO you will be sorely disappointed when you pull next to one. Pull next to the G8 and don't drive right and it will spank you, and it has the lesser L76, is bigger and has 4 doors. I like competition as well as the next but don't get smug thinking the Camaro is going to be a pushover. I'll bet money you'd be wrong. The Camaro will be as fast if not faster than the GTO which is a notch over the current GT. When the refresh comes it might be different as of now I like my hand better.
On the GTO's "failure". One phrase covers it alone, "Premium V8 coupe only". Nothing more nothing less period. 14K sold per year for a car in its class without the aid of a V6 model, convertible, or anything different other than color and rim choice is 99.9% of the reason of the short lived line. Offer a Mustang in leather, fully loaded, high end V8, no convertible, no V6 no cloth interior or roll up windows or deletable options and see how many it sells. I think 14K for such a "bland" car in this category is pretty ****ed good myself.