Pulled over today...
5/18/05, 06:56 PM
#1
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Got pulled over in North Brunswick, NJ today on Rt. 1 not a mile from my house.
Ticket is for improper passing... only it wasn't. I s'pose that's the argumentative part.
What's not argumentative is that they were pulling people over in bulk, and I just happened to get caught up in it.
There were no lights or sirens. Just a cop jumping in front of traffic and waving cars off the road. For all I knew he was directing traffic.
Anyway, I've been told that an emergency vehicle is only constituted such when it's lights and sirens are on. That until that point, you need not yield to it because it is not established as an emergency vehicle.
Now in this case, no vehicle or signal of any sort besides a cop jumping in front of moving traffic waving his hands about.
Second. On the ticket they have me clearly marked off as being female with a written captial "F". I am clearly not.
Makes you wonder just how much attention they were paying...
but I've read that in some states (I don't know about NJ) that if a ticket for a moving violation is filled out incorrectly it is void.
Is this so in New Jersey.
The argumentative part being, I was avoiding colision from a car in the left lane and crossed the right hand shoulder. I never actually passed any vehicle, nor had any intention of such. My only intention was to avoid being hit by another vehicle (whom was not stopped btw).
Now the deal is I had my signal on to turn off the highway. Many drivers drive on the shoulder to bypass traffic and exit the highway.
I, myself, was not more than 4 or 5 cars back from exiting legally and was forced(by way of avoiding a colision) in the shoulder just prior to where the line opened up.
I mean, I have a 4 hour commute each day. I think I can wait another minute or two to get home.
So -
My question is... Is my argument sound? and do any loopholes apply?
Ticket is for improper passing... only it wasn't. I s'pose that's the argumentative part.
What's not argumentative is that they were pulling people over in bulk, and I just happened to get caught up in it.
There were no lights or sirens. Just a cop jumping in front of traffic and waving cars off the road. For all I knew he was directing traffic.
Anyway, I've been told that an emergency vehicle is only constituted such when it's lights and sirens are on. That until that point, you need not yield to it because it is not established as an emergency vehicle.
Now in this case, no vehicle or signal of any sort besides a cop jumping in front of moving traffic waving his hands about.
Second. On the ticket they have me clearly marked off as being female with a written captial "F". I am clearly not.
Makes you wonder just how much attention they were paying...
but I've read that in some states (I don't know about NJ) that if a ticket for a moving violation is filled out incorrectly it is void.
Is this so in New Jersey.
The argumentative part being, I was avoiding colision from a car in the left lane and crossed the right hand shoulder. I never actually passed any vehicle, nor had any intention of such. My only intention was to avoid being hit by another vehicle (whom was not stopped btw).
Now the deal is I had my signal on to turn off the highway. Many drivers drive on the shoulder to bypass traffic and exit the highway.
I, myself, was not more than 4 or 5 cars back from exiting legally and was forced(by way of avoiding a colision) in the shoulder just prior to where the line opened up.
I mean, I have a 4 hour commute each day. I think I can wait another minute or two to get home.
So -
My question is... Is my argument sound? and do any loopholes apply?
5/18/05, 08:19 PM
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An officer in uniform is enough. He is established as a Police Officer. Second, The mismarked female/male thing, doesn't matter, at least not here. Lastly, from what you have said, it sounds like you might have an argument in court. But if you go to court, tell what you said, and let them decide if you were in the wrong or not. Of course, I'd have to hear both sides.
If you used the shoulder, technically, you did improperly pass, unless directed to do so by the officer.
If you used the shoulder, technically, you did improperly pass, unless directed to do so by the officer.
5/19/05, 09:35 AM
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The ticketing officer is going to have a tough time proving it if he did not witness it. I think you have a solid reason for what you did. You avoided an accident and crossed over to do so. I would definetley talk to a someone in the courthouse and see what can be done. You can't lose anything by contesting it and maybe in doing so the local cops will consider different alternatives to their actions. Good luck and keep us posted!
5/19/05, 03:51 PM
#5
when you go to the courthouse, chances are there wont be any prosecution; and the officer is hoping you wont take the hassle to go the courthouse and just pay the fine without trying to fight it.
5/28/05, 07:01 AM
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Hey Bud,
ok i live in jersey, I'm 24 and i've been in court about 9 times due to traffic violations...lol
anway, here's the deal.
#1) they will not void the ticket because of M or F.
#2) plead not guilty and go to court.
#3) You will get a ticket, a lowered one (hopefully no points) but you'll get one.
#4) you better have a clean record or It's hard that they will deal with you.
#5) In court don't be an hiney, don't be like " I didn't do poo" simply state your case, and HOPEFULLY they will give you a non-point carrying violation.
that's the best you'll be able to do.
You woudn't get away scotch free (NJ likes money too much). But hopefully they will drop the points.
By the way, If you got no points, then don't bother fighting it, you'll waste you time plus a 30$ court fee.
ok i live in jersey, I'm 24 and i've been in court about 9 times due to traffic violations...lol
anway, here's the deal.
#1) they will not void the ticket because of M or F.
#2) plead not guilty and go to court.
#3) You will get a ticket, a lowered one (hopefully no points) but you'll get one.
#4) you better have a clean record or It's hard that they will deal with you.
#5) In court don't be an hiney, don't be like " I didn't do poo" simply state your case, and HOPEFULLY they will give you a non-point carrying violation.
that's the best you'll be able to do.
You woudn't get away scotch free (NJ likes money too much). But hopefully they will drop the points.
By the way, If you got no points, then don't bother fighting it, you'll waste you time plus a 30$ court fee.
5/28/05, 11:58 AM
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Mass Ticket rules (I learned the hard way)
Don't talk to the court. At this point they don't know you from adam. If you call to complain they take notes and then design their case against your argument that you conveniently laid out for them.
At your court appearance let them talk first. Before the hearing they will pull you into a room and ask you why you are fighting this simple ticket, don't make their case. Just say, I'll lay out my case before the judge. Don't blink, don't let them bully you into talking to them!
Have the officer point you out in court (he has to go first, and then ask him if he is sure since he marked you a female). Have fun with these donkey doughnuts.
Tell the court that they were standing in the street and forcing cars into the curb and then ticketing them for improper lane change.
Tell them that they were on such an assembly line they didn't even pay attention to your gender.
Before the case here is what will happen. The court will call the officer and ask him if he remembers you. When he doesn't you will get a call from a sincere member of the court asking in a sweet voice, "Please tell me why you are fighting this ticket, what did we do wrong?" The typical person pukes out the grievance and you make their case. If you say, I don't know you wrote the ticket or I'll let you explain it in court, etc... they will probably dismiss the ticket via mail.
It really pisses them off but I've had three dismissals via mail.
When you fight a ticket the court plays games to use you to make the case. If you stick to your guns you have a 15% chance the officer can't make it. A more serious case, vacation, sick day etc. You cost the state about $200 in overtime, DA review time, and court costs, and by law they can't charge you more for exercising your right to defend yourself.
Warning! The first court date is to plead. If you want to explain your case at this time (YOU DON'T) you will have to plead guilty or no contest with an explanation. Just plead Not Guilty and don't show your cards. (You have more going for you than they want you to know.)
Have fun and kick their hineys.
Don't talk to the court. At this point they don't know you from adam. If you call to complain they take notes and then design their case against your argument that you conveniently laid out for them.
At your court appearance let them talk first. Before the hearing they will pull you into a room and ask you why you are fighting this simple ticket, don't make their case. Just say, I'll lay out my case before the judge. Don't blink, don't let them bully you into talking to them!
Have the officer point you out in court (he has to go first, and then ask him if he is sure since he marked you a female). Have fun with these donkey doughnuts.
Tell the court that they were standing in the street and forcing cars into the curb and then ticketing them for improper lane change.
Tell them that they were on such an assembly line they didn't even pay attention to your gender.
Before the case here is what will happen. The court will call the officer and ask him if he remembers you. When he doesn't you will get a call from a sincere member of the court asking in a sweet voice, "Please tell me why you are fighting this ticket, what did we do wrong?" The typical person pukes out the grievance and you make their case. If you say, I don't know you wrote the ticket or I'll let you explain it in court, etc... they will probably dismiss the ticket via mail.
It really pisses them off but I've had three dismissals via mail.
When you fight a ticket the court plays games to use you to make the case. If you stick to your guns you have a 15% chance the officer can't make it. A more serious case, vacation, sick day etc. You cost the state about $200 in overtime, DA review time, and court costs, and by law they can't charge you more for exercising your right to defend yourself.
Warning! The first court date is to plead. If you want to explain your case at this time (YOU DON'T) you will have to plead guilty or no contest with an explanation. Just plead Not Guilty and don't show your cards. (You have more going for you than they want you to know.)
Have fun and kick their hineys.
5/28/05, 02:12 PM
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Is there a witness listed on the ticket? The ticketing officer can write you a ticket based on the credibility of the witness which is usually another officer.
5/28/05, 05:18 PM
#9
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Originally posted by dswhalen@May 28, 2005, 12:01 PM
Mass Ticket rules (I learned the hard way)
Don't talk to the court. At this point they don't know you from adam. If you call to complain they take notes and then design their case against your argument that you conveniently laid out for them.
At your court appearance let them talk first. Before the hearing they will pull you into a room and ask you why you are fighting this simple ticket, don't make their case. Just say, I'll lay out my case before the judge. Don't blink, don't let them bully you into talking to them!
Have the officer point you out in court (he has to go first, and then ask him if he is sure since he marked you a female). Have fun with these donkey doughnuts.
Tell the court that they were standing in the street and forcing cars into the curb and then ticketing them for improper lane change.
Tell them that they were on such an assembly line they didn't even pay attention to your gender.
Before the case here is what will happen. The court will call the officer and ask him if he remembers you. When he doesn't you will get a call from a sincere member of the court asking in a sweet voice, "Please tell me why you are fighting this ticket, what did we do wrong?" The typical person pukes out the grievance and you make their case. If you say, I don't know you wrote the ticket or I'll let you explain it in court, etc... they will probably dismiss the ticket via mail.
It really pisses them off but I've had three dismissals via mail.
When you fight a ticket the court plays games to use you to make the case. If you stick to your guns you have a 15% chance the officer can't make it. A more serious case, vacation, sick day etc. You cost the state about $200 in overtime, DA review time, and court costs, and by law they can't charge you more for exercising your right to defend yourself.
Warning! The first court date is to plead. If you want to explain your case at this time (YOU DON'T) you will have to plead guilty or no contest with an explanation. Just plead Not Guilty and don't show your cards. (You have more going for you than they want you to know.)
Have fun and kick their asses.
Mass Ticket rules (I learned the hard way)
Don't talk to the court. At this point they don't know you from adam. If you call to complain they take notes and then design their case against your argument that you conveniently laid out for them.
At your court appearance let them talk first. Before the hearing they will pull you into a room and ask you why you are fighting this simple ticket, don't make their case. Just say, I'll lay out my case before the judge. Don't blink, don't let them bully you into talking to them!
Have the officer point you out in court (he has to go first, and then ask him if he is sure since he marked you a female). Have fun with these donkey doughnuts.
Tell the court that they were standing in the street and forcing cars into the curb and then ticketing them for improper lane change.
Tell them that they were on such an assembly line they didn't even pay attention to your gender.
Before the case here is what will happen. The court will call the officer and ask him if he remembers you. When he doesn't you will get a call from a sincere member of the court asking in a sweet voice, "Please tell me why you are fighting this ticket, what did we do wrong?" The typical person pukes out the grievance and you make their case. If you say, I don't know you wrote the ticket or I'll let you explain it in court, etc... they will probably dismiss the ticket via mail.
It really pisses them off but I've had three dismissals via mail.
When you fight a ticket the court plays games to use you to make the case. If you stick to your guns you have a 15% chance the officer can't make it. A more serious case, vacation, sick day etc. You cost the state about $200 in overtime, DA review time, and court costs, and by law they can't charge you more for exercising your right to defend yourself.
Warning! The first court date is to plead. If you want to explain your case at this time (YOU DON'T) you will have to plead guilty or no contest with an explanation. Just plead Not Guilty and don't show your cards. (You have more going for you than they want you to know.)
Have fun and kick their asses.
. My experience is Maryland(MANY times), Virginia(a couple) and Alabama(once).
5/30/05, 04:01 AM
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Originally posted by The Rock 326@May 18, 2005, 8:22 PM
If you used the shoulder, technically, you did improperly pass, unless directed to do so by the officer.
If you used the shoulder, technically, you did improperly pass, unless directed to do so by the officer.
5/30/05, 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by svopaul@May 28, 2005, 6:21 PM
You need to indicate what state you live in because not every state is the same and I have NEVER found any of my court dealings to be remotely close to yours....and I have had my share. My experience is Maryland(MANY times), Virginia(a couple) and Alabama(once).
You need to indicate what state you live in because not every state is the same and I have NEVER found any of my court dealings to be remotely close to yours....and I have had my share
. My experience is Maryland(MANY times), Virginia(a couple) and Alabama(once).
5/30/05, 09:17 AM
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I live in Utah but have had tickets in AZ and CA. The rules seem pretty similar. Most states will make you pre-pay the fine when filing not-guilty and refund it if you are let off.
So if you fight a ticket the prosecution always goes first. The defense gets the last word and if they don't remember you in a mass ticket nab, they will look stupid in front of the judge.
Also the court costs in officer time, DA time, etc will weigh in on the matter.
Good luck.
5/30/05, 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by dswhalen@May 30, 2005, 10:20 AM
The state may play a role but the facts are this. The prosecution has to make the case. You don't need to help them. If they can't remember you they will call you up to fill in the details. You will frustrate the tar out of them if you don't give them any clues.
I live in Utah but have had tickets in AZ and CA. The rules seem pretty similar. Most states will make you pre-pay the fine when filing not-guilty and refund it if you are let off.
So if you fight a ticket the prosecution always goes first. The defense gets the last word and if they don't remember you in a mass ticket nab, they will look stupid in front of the judge.
Also the court costs in officer time, DA time, etc will weigh in on the matter.
Good luck.
The state may play a role but the facts are this. The prosecution has to make the case. You don't need to help them. If they can't remember you they will call you up to fill in the details. You will frustrate the tar out of them if you don't give them any clues.
I live in Utah but have had tickets in AZ and CA. The rules seem pretty similar. Most states will make you pre-pay the fine when filing not-guilty and refund it if you are let off.
So if you fight a ticket the prosecution always goes first. The defense gets the last word and if they don't remember you in a mass ticket nab, they will look stupid in front of the judge.
Also the court costs in officer time, DA time, etc will weigh in on the matter.
Good luck.
You apparently don't have as much experience in this as you are trying to portray. Apparently you don't understand that officer's make notes on the citation itself, usually in a duplicate tear off that they keep for their records. I promise you, unless it's a very small town where the officers aren't as thorough, your not going to, as you say, "...frustrate the tar out of them if you don't give them any clues."
And your caught up on court costs, DA time etc. I don't know where you read that little tid-bit but it's false. No one cares if an officer is paid overtime for court. It's part of his job and the department he works for knows it and allots for it. The DA's?? C'mon man. That's what the heck they get paid for. It's job-security if nothing else.
Please, because you got out of a ticket or got something reduced, don't consider yourself an expert or have a pre-conceived notion that your actions were the cause.
Yes, we all are Innocent until proven guilty. I for one am glad that we have the right to prove ourselves in court. And by all means, if you were falsely charged with something, then go to court and fight it. But the law is there to protect people from false imprisonment or mistakes made by officers. It is NOT there to give everyone an out that are guilty for said charge!!
5/30/05, 11:13 AM
#14
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Originally posted by dswhalen@May 30, 2005, 9:20 AM
The state may play a role but the facts are this. The prosecution has to make the case. You don't need to help them. If they can't remember you they will call you up to fill in the details. You will frustrate the tar out of them if you don't give them any clues.
I live in Utah but have had tickets in AZ and CA. The rules seem pretty similar. Most states will make you pre-pay the fine when filing not-guilty and refund it if you are let off.
So if you fight a ticket the prosecution always goes first. The defense gets the last word and if they don't remember you in a mass ticket nab, they will look stupid in front of the judge.
Also the court costs in officer time, DA time, etc will weigh in on the matter.
Good luck.
The state may play a role but the facts are this. The prosecution has to make the case. You don't need to help them. If they can't remember you they will call you up to fill in the details. You will frustrate the tar out of them if you don't give them any clues.
I live in Utah but have had tickets in AZ and CA. The rules seem pretty similar. Most states will make you pre-pay the fine when filing not-guilty and refund it if you are let off.
So if you fight a ticket the prosecution always goes first. The defense gets the last word and if they don't remember you in a mass ticket nab, they will look stupid in front of the judge.
Also the court costs in officer time, DA time, etc will weigh in on the matter.
Good luck.
The rules might seem similar where you are from but I can assure you they are VERY different in each state...especially those that I have experienced.
I would suggest you include disclaimers as to what state you are in when giving advice before you do someone more harm than good by ASSUMING every state is the same.
6/8/05, 08:13 AM
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I'm in NJ, too. You have to go to court on this even if you're guilty. It is a moving violation and you're insurance will go up.
I'm not a cop or an attorney, but I do watch Law & Order.
Go to court. The prosecutor will try to make a deal with you before your case comes up. Forget the fines, make sure you don't get any points for a moving violation. Take whatever he offers if your insurance doesn't go up.
It isn't about guilt or innocence, right or wrong. You're in NJ and it is all about the insurance.
If you don't have points and you've been driving for a while, you should be able to get out of it. Perception is reality, so if you thought the car next to you was about to hit you, then you needed to move. The cop may have seen you move, but he can't prove why you did it. If they were pulling people over in batches, chances are a few of them will go to court and have the same court date. That should help you when you speak privately with the prosecutor.
I'm paying over $3,000 a year for insurance on my V6. I haven't had a ticket, accident or filed a claim in over 10 years. I can't imagine what 2 or 4 points would do to my insurance. In NJ, it is all about insurance. Go to court and fight it with everything you've got.
I'm not a cop or an attorney, but I do watch Law & Order.
Go to court. The prosecutor will try to make a deal with you before your case comes up. Forget the fines, make sure you don't get any points for a moving violation. Take whatever he offers if your insurance doesn't go up.
It isn't about guilt or innocence, right or wrong. You're in NJ and it is all about the insurance.
If you don't have points and you've been driving for a while, you should be able to get out of it. Perception is reality, so if you thought the car next to you was about to hit you, then you needed to move. The cop may have seen you move, but he can't prove why you did it. If they were pulling people over in batches, chances are a few of them will go to court and have the same court date. That should help you when you speak privately with the prosecutor.
I'm paying over $3,000 a year for insurance on my V6. I haven't had a ticket, accident or filed a claim in over 10 years. I can't imagine what 2 or 4 points would do to my insurance. In NJ, it is all about insurance. Go to court and fight it with everything you've got.
6/8/05, 08:35 AM
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[quote=flashbang756,May 30, 2005, 10:04 AM]
Please, because you got out of a ticket or got something reduced, don't consider yourself an expert or have a pre-conceived notion that your actions were the cause.
--
I don't think it is a lecture. When I was younger I had a proscecuter call me and ask in all sincerety why I felt the ticket was wrong. I thought he cared. When I went to court he prepared his whole case around our phone call.
I was caught speeding in a school zone that said "when children are present" it was 40 minutes before school and 18 degrees. The crossing guard hadn't even shown up yet, it was morning. The cop said it didn't matter because if was an hour before school.
When I told the prosecutor this, they came to court and testified that kids were everywhere and one even had to run out of the cross walk to avoid me. They lied their hineys off.
I haven't had a lot of ticket but my kids have. I have never given a fact or clue to the prosecutors and we have had a bunch of cases dismissed before we ever got to court.
Plus, how do you know how much experience I have?????????? I may just have some common sense to share? Be Cool
Please, because you got out of a ticket or got something reduced, don't consider yourself an expert or have a pre-conceived notion that your actions were the cause.
--
I don't think it is a lecture. When I was younger I had a proscecuter call me and ask in all sincerety why I felt the ticket was wrong. I thought he cared. When I went to court he prepared his whole case around our phone call.
I was caught speeding in a school zone that said "when children are present" it was 40 minutes before school and 18 degrees. The crossing guard hadn't even shown up yet, it was morning. The cop said it didn't matter because if was an hour before school.
When I told the prosecutor this, they came to court and testified that kids were everywhere and one even had to run out of the cross walk to avoid me. They lied their hineys off.
I haven't had a lot of ticket but my kids have. I have never given a fact or clue to the prosecutors and we have had a bunch of cases dismissed before we ever got to court.
Plus, how do you know how much experience I have?????????? I may just have some common sense to share? Be Cool
6/8/05, 08:56 AM
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In the Province of Alberta, a police vehicle does not need to have its lights and siren on for enforcement purposes, A police vehicle can be used in emergency mode or normal driving mode it depends on the descretion of the police officer.
As for that particular type of enforcement normally there is a target officer watching what vehicles are doing he or she will then tell the interceptor what vehicle to pull over or pull in as the case may be.
In Alberta the highway or road shoulder is meant for emergency vehicles only.
I would say your chances of beating the ticket are slim and none.
As for that particular type of enforcement normally there is a target officer watching what vehicles are doing he or she will then tell the interceptor what vehicle to pull over or pull in as the case may be.
In Alberta the highway or road shoulder is meant for emergency vehicles only.
I would say your chances of beating the ticket are slim and none.
6/8/05, 05:33 PM
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Originally posted by dswhalen@June 8, 2005, 9:38 AM
I haven't had a lot of ticket but my kids have. I have never given a fact or clue to the prosecutors and we have had a bunch of cases dismissed before we ever got to court.
Plus, how do you know how much experience I have?????????? I may just have some common sense to share? Be Cool
I haven't had a lot of ticket but my kids have. I have never given a fact or clue to the prosecutors and we have had a bunch of cases dismissed before we ever got to court.
Plus, how do you know how much experience I have?????????? I may just have some common sense to share? Be Cool
6/9/05, 12:55 AM
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Originally posted by flashbang756@June 8, 2005, 4:36 PM
My point is, your giving people advice on a subject that is limited to only your experience in your areas. The thing you need to realize, as svopaul said, is every state has different operating practices in court. Someone may try what you claim to be a sure fire way to get out of a ticket, and end up worse off.
My point is, your giving people advice on a subject that is limited to only your experience in your areas. The thing you need to realize, as svopaul said, is every state has different operating practices in court. Someone may try what you claim to be a sure fire way to get out of a ticket, and end up worse off.
It's like the detectives on Law and Order that say, if you just tell us, it will be good for you. Most people make the case for the prosecution while they think they are helping out, honest.
A friend of mine was a real estate agent that showed a house. A month or so later something went missing. The homeowners thought it was a RE agent. The cops went through the agent log and called in a bunch of agents. They told everyone that they had an eye witness and it would be good if the person would just confess. Had they confessed they would charge based on that. So don't ever tell a prosecutor the skinny. That advice is true in any state.
Another 2 cents that make sense.