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The Future of the Original Pony Car

Old 9/10/14, 07:02 PM
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The Future of the Original Pony Car



With this EcoBoost Mustang, Ford is looking to grab some of the tuner crowds money and the attention of millennial buyers, and you know what? They should be. I mean, big-honkin' displacement motors are wonderful -- they send shivers down your spine when they fire up, and can make people wet themselves when you launch them -- nevertheless, in todays world, they are dinosaurs. With todays technology, you can make just as much horsepower with small-displacement engines that you could with those monster V8s, and we should be embracing it. Not because its the green thing to do, or any of that hippie-dippy nonsense, but in the long-run, its cheaper and still results in quite a lot of power.

Read the rest on the Mustang Source homepage.
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Old 9/10/14, 07:21 PM
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The only problem is that the millennials by and large couldn't care less about owning a new car. Most of them regard new cars as being too expensive and not worth the investment (they're right). The so called "tuners" by and large do not buy new cars. They pick up some used 10 year old Civic and rice it out. So an effort to convince them to buy a brand new Mustang is rather like fishing for guppies with a hook designed to snare a swordfish. They aren't going to bite. The average price tag on an ecoboost Mustang is going to be north of 27 grand and that is well out of the range that most millennials would be willing to pay for a car. This is a scheme that Toyota already tried with the FR-S and it failed. Hyundai already tried it with the Genesis coupe, same result. What makes Ford think the Mustang will be any different?

Last edited by White2010; 9/10/14 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 9/10/14, 07:56 PM
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When the Ecoboost is as economical to repair and fix as the standard V8 is (because I'm telling you... it won't be), AND makes the same kind of power (because it doesn't now), AND beats it all to HELL regarding MPG (which it sorta does)... oh, yeah, and is as reliable as my previous Mark VII, my Hooptybird V6, and my Awesome *knocks on wood* (with over 120,000 miles on these three and no issues to speak of, the other two *well* over) (Jury's out on that, I'm thinkin'.)

Then you have my attention. Right now, you merely have my curiosity, Ford. For it only does one of these four items.

Ecoboost is a V6 replacement at best. If I had to get a '15, the 5.0 is the one.

Last edited by houtex; 9/10/14 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 9/11/14, 04:17 AM
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Since the emissions play a definite role in the purchase price of the car (atleast in the Netherlands they do), the Ecoboost will have a lower emission than the V8, and thus will be cheaper.


While Ford hasn't released any pricing information for our country yet, we've been speculating on the amount of CO2 tax that will be tagged on. Which for the Ecoboost seems to come to somewhere around €29.000 to €30.000, and the V8 will garner a hefty €60.000. Mind you, that's just the purchase taxes on CO2 emissions of the car. That's not the purchase of the car itself, any options or delivery costs, and it does NOT include the VAT tax of 21% that still goes over everything (with the exception of the CO2 tax, cause taxes over taxes... no... unless it's for gas, cause then we do pay taxes over taxes).


So while I'd rather drive the V8, the purchase cost will most likely sway me to the Ecoboost if anything. And looking at the pricing, I'm more likely to remain with my 2002 GT with it's higher CO2 emissions, just cause I do not deem the Ecoboost worthy of the price that will be tagged on.


But since Ford is still not sure what those prices will be, I'm still waiting for this to see what's what.
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Old 9/11/14, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by White2010 View Post
The only problem is that the millennials by and large couldn't care less about owning a new car. Most of them regard new cars as being too expensive and not worth the investment (they're right). The so called "tuners" by and large do not buy new cars. They pick up some used 10 year old Civic and rice it out. So an effort to convince them to buy a brand new Mustang is rather like fishing for guppies with a hook designed to snare a swordfish. They aren't going to bite. The average price tag on an ecoboost Mustang is going to be north of 27 grand and that is well out of the range that most millennials would be willing to pay for a car. This is a scheme that Toyota already tried with the FR-S and it failed. Hyundai already tried it with the Genesis coupe, same result. What makes Ford think the Mustang will be any different?
I think it will. I believe Ford understood this and that's why it will now be sold worldwide. I think that was the key for all this. Going Europe was the plan to begin with. They are the ones that like that 4 banger biz. I don't dislike Echoboost by any means, it's just not my idea of an American Muscle Car. I think Ford's idea here was to broaden the spectrum and try to shake up the so-called muscle car market.
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Old 9/11/14, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Azure View Post
Going Europe was the plan to begin with. They are the ones that like that 4 banger biz.
It's not a specific like... it's the cost aspect. Purchase prices include CO2 emisson taxes, gas here is a lot more expensive than with you folks, roadtaxes I'm not sure on, and I can't readily compare insurances either.


But with the purchase price of an EB vs V8 being lower it's going to be more appealing. Also the fact that it 'might' be a bit more economical on gas could potentially sway some people there.
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Old 9/11/14, 09:19 PM
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Makes me sad to think of people buying a Mustang with economy as a motivating factor. Oh well, different strokes for different folks.
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Old 9/11/14, 10:10 PM
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I personally think Ford is gonna sell more 4 banger turbos than V6 models here in the U.S. Over the years I seen a huge shift from supercharger set ups to turbo set ups. It seems that turbo is the in thing and the way to make the best power. I think people are going to love a factory turbo set up and bet that ecoboost engine will respond awesome to power mods.

Granted the hard core enthusiasts such as many on here will only want 5.0 or nothing. Which is fine but I imagine Ford sees a much bigger picture. The far majority of consumers are not mustang enthusiasts to this level.

That's not to say non enthusiasts don't love the mustang but for many 310 HP and 325 lbs torque is plenty for most consumers. The average majority consumer won't care about having a 435 HP V8. They want a great looking car, good gas millage and good pick up. The ecoboost model will offer that as does the V6.

That's why there are far more V6 models on the road than V8 models. Heck, the V6 kept the V8 in production because the majority of consumers don't care about doing the 1/4 mile in 12.7 seconds or the V6 model does it in 13.7 seconds. The vast majority of consumers don't care. Us enthusiasts care which is why they have the 5.0 but Ford sees where the market place is for future sales.

That market is smaller displacement, more power with smaller displacement and higher MPG's. Ecoboost is mission accomplished. I also think that the ecoboost is priced really well over the V6 model.

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Old 9/12/14, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Mickstang View Post
Makes me sad to think of people buying a Mustang with economy as a motivating factor. Oh well, different strokes for different folks.
Okay... So you buy a Mustang GT (base) for what? 45K in dollars? I used that pricetag in 2011 for a brief calculation. I can provide the numbers but that''s probably a bit too dry.


That same car (considering the price is similar), when I have to buy it, would net me somewhere between $110k to $120k. Like I said, pricing for the 2015 isn't known yet, so I have no clear view of what the difference is going to be for the 2015 model.


At that point economics would be a viable concern in your book too. While I can get over the fact that I might need to put more fuel in the car (at 8 to 9 dollars a gallon which I'm currently pouring into my 2002 GT), as a purchase price for a car that is just too much of a financial drain for most.

Last edited by Neko-; 9/12/14 at 01:33 AM.
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Old 9/12/14, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by White2010 View Post
The only problem is that the millennials by and large couldn't care less about owning a new car. Most of them regard new cars as being too expensive and not worth the investment (they're right). The so called "tuners" by and large do not buy new cars. They pick up some used 10 year old Civic and rice it out. So an effort to convince them to buy a brand new Mustang is rather like fishing for guppies with a hook designed to snare a swordfish. They aren't going to bite. The average price tag on an ecoboost Mustang is going to be north of 27 grand and that is well out of the range that most millennials would be willing to pay for a car. This is a scheme that Toyota already tried with the FR-S and it failed. Hyundai already tried it with the Genesis coupe, same result. What makes Ford think the Mustang will be any different?
Originally Posted by Azure View Post
I think it will. I believe Ford understood this and that's why it will now be sold worldwide. I think that was the key for all this. Going Europe was the plan to begin with. They are the ones that like that 4 banger biz. I don't dislike Echoboost by any means, it's just not my idea of an American Muscle Car. I think Ford's idea here was to broaden the spectrum and try to shake up the so-called muscle car market.
White2010... I side more with Azure here...
I think you're confusing "tuners" with high-school kids.
The turner market isn't JUST a bunch of riced out civics, it also includes Supras, Skylines, GT-Rs, the NSX, 370z, Sti.... yadda.... (and I doubt many call a GT-R rice). Even the M3 is considered by most a "Tuner." All of those are awesome platforms to build on. Most have a 6 cylinder motor but some are moving towards a 4 (i.e. WRX).
I think Ford is going about it the right way. The EcoBoost isn't to replace the V8; at least not for a long time, if ever. It's there to, honestly, make the lineup more efficient and cutting edge (also global regulations and etc. lol).

The Mustang, oddly enough is as much of a tuner today as a 370z is. Hec, the first mod people do nowadays is a TUNE, then an exhaust, and then lowering springs... sound familiar? Maybe like a "tuner"? The TT/i4 will be an awesome option beside the NA/V8 in the lineup.

Let's not let F&F Tokyo Drift lead us the wrong way on our opinions of the EcoBoost.

... Oh and for me, I'll still take the V8.
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Old 9/12/14, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Krohn View Post
... Oh and for me, I'll still take the V8.

Agreed. What's the point of having a muscle car if it has no muscle?
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Old 9/12/14, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by TripleBlack14 View Post

Agreed. What's the point of having a muscle car if it has no muscle?
I think 21st century muscle is very different than 1960's-70's muscle. The muscle era has evolved into something very different. Its about lower emissions, bigger power with smaller displacement. Unfortunately and its certainly ashame but the big muscle car era has been long gone, like 40 years gone.

Also, The mustang was not really considered to be a muscle car, its a pony car. Its a MODERN day muscle car at best compared to what's left of the muscle car era. In my opinion, the only true muscle car left today is the Dodge Challenger.

Now don't get me wrong, I love the big displacement power and sound but that's a dying thought process. I was born in 1974 when the muscle car era was there. Many young teenagers today, don't car about big displacement. They may want fast but don't care what size the engine is. The fast and furious cars is where its at for many today.

Ford knows this and while I believe there will always be a V8 around the bread and butter is in the smaller displacement engines. That's where Ford will make the most money from and not the V8's.
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Old 9/12/14, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by 2011 Kona Blue View Post
The mustang was not really considered to be a muscle car, its a pony car. Its a MODERN day muscle car at best compared to what's left of the muscle car era.
Semantics really. The term "pony car" was only used for a few short years to define a segment of the large and growing American performance car market. By '74 with emission, safety and fuel economy regulations choking the American V-8, "muscle car" came to mean just about any performance oriented car with 2 doors and more than 6 cylinders. That trend continues today as evidenced by how Mecum, Barret-Jackson, and enthusiast publications refer to 60's and early 70's cars of the genre.

You're right though. The term "muscle car" has evolved in the 21st century to include hi-performance American V-6's, and of course V-8's in a variety of different packages including Hemi Durangos, Corvettes, and Vipers.

As far as the Dodge Challenger being the only true muscle car left today, I would have to disagree. It's based on the Charger platform...a four door vehicle....hardly the definition of a true muscle car if you acknowledge the premise that a true muscle car has 2 doors. That's what was accepted as gospel in the 60's/70's. And the original Challenger (and'Cuda) was also considered a "pony car" back in the day.

But it's all good. Regardless of the number of doors today, I'm just glad we have modern muscle. And I hope that there's truth to the rumors of a new 'Cuda on it's own dedicated platform. If it comes to be, it'll be a game changer.
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Old 9/12/14, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by TripleBlack14 View Post

Semantics really. The term "pony car" was only used for a few short years to define a segment of the large and growing American performance car market. By '74 with emission, safety and fuel economy regulations choking the American V-8, "muscle car" came to mean just about any performance oriented car with 2 doors and more than 6 cylinders. That trend continues today as evidenced by how Mecum, Barret-Jackson, and enthusiast publications refer to 60's and early 70's cars of the genre.

You're right though. The term "muscle car" has evolved in the 21st century to include hi-performance American V-6's, and of course V-8's in a variety of different packages including Hemi Durangos, Corvettes, and Vipers.

As far as the Dodge Challenger being the only true muscle car left today, I would have to disagree. It's based on the Charger platform...a four door vehicle....hardly the definition of a true muscle car if you acknowledge the premise that a true muscle car has 2 doors. That's what was accepted as gospel in the 60's/70's. And the original Challenger (and'Cuda) was also considered a "pony car" back in the day.

But it's all good. Regardless of the number of doors today, I'm just glad we have modern muscle. And I hope that there's truth to the rumors of a new 'Cuda on it's own dedicated platform. If it comes to be, it'll be a game changer.
I think the return of a Cuda could be freaking awesome and if done right will be killer. I'm not a fan of the 4 doors in the Charger for Muscle car. Lol
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Old 9/12/14, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by TripleBlack14 View Post
As far as the Dodge Challenger being the only true muscle car left today, I would have to disagree. It's based on the Charger platform...a four door vehicle....hardly the definition of a true muscle car if you acknowledge the premise that a true muscle car has 2 doors. That's what was accepted as gospel in the 60's/70's. And the original Challenger (and'Cuda) was also considered a "pony car" back in the day.
The Chevelle/Malibu SS 396 hardtop coupe was every bit a muscle car and it was sold alongside it's grocery getter 6-cylinder 4-door sedan, post coupe and wagon siblings. Just because the Challenger is based on a Charger platform doesn't make it less of a muscle car, just as the Chevelle SS is no less a muscle car because it also came as a sedan, budget post coupe and wagon.

The Challenger really is the only true muscle car today. It it a run of the mill economy coupe in some guises but can be equipped with a big cube, big power engine if you want it that way. That's exactly how the muscle car market worked in the 60's. You could buy the grocery getter 6-cylinder, the small V8 or the monster big block muscle version all in the same body depending on your plans for the car.

Also, the 340 Challenger was considered a pony car. However, equipping it with the 440ci or 426ci Hemi engine took away it's pony car status and turned it into a genuine muscle car. The definition of muscle car very much depends on which engine you put in the car, not the body you put it in. For example, a Pontiac Tempest was not a muscle car but a GTO was. A Buick Skylark was not a muscle car but a GS455/GSX was. A 2014 six cylinder Challenger is not a muscle car but a 2014 Challenger SRT392 is.

I don't really know how to classify the 2014 GT500. It's not a pony car but it's not a muscle car to me. It's something different altogether.

Last edited by Boss 0960; 9/12/14 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 9/12/14, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Boss 0960 View Post
The Chevelle/Malibu SS 396 hardtop coupe was every bit a muscle car and it was sold alongside it's grocery getter 6-cylinder 4-door sedan, post coupe and wagon siblings. Just because the Challenger is based on a Charger platform doesn't make it less of a muscle car, just as the Chevelle SS is no less a muscle car because it also came as a sedan, budget post coupe and wagon.

The Challenger really is the only true muscle car today. It it a run of the mill economy coupe in some guises but can be equipped with a big cube, big power engine if you want it that way. That's exactly how the muscle car market worked in the 60's. You could buy the grocery getter 6-cylinder, the small V8 or the monster big block muscle version all in the same body depending on your plans for the car.

Also, the 340 Challenger was considered a pony car. However, equipping it with the 440ci or 426ci Hemi engine took away it's pony car status and turned it into a genuine muscle car. The definition of muscle car very much depends on which engine you put in the car, not the body you put it in. For example, a Pontiac Tempest was not a muscle car but a GTO was. A Buick Skylark was not a muscle car but a GS455/GSX was. A 2014 six cylinder Challenger is not a muscle car but a 2014 Challenger SRT392 is.

I don't really know how to classify the 2014 GT500. It's not a pony car but it's not a muscle car to me. It's something different altogether.
Off OP topic but definitely the truth! lol Nicely put.
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Old 9/12/14, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Neko- View Post
Okay... So you buy a Mustang GT (base) for what? 45K in dollars? I used that pricetag in 2011 for a brief calculation. I can provide the numbers but that''s probably a bit too dry.


That same car (considering the price is similar), when I have to buy it, would net me somewhere between $110k to $120k. Like I said, pricing for the 2015 isn't known yet, so I have no clear view of what the difference is going to be for the 2015 model.


At that point economics would be a viable concern in your book too. While I can get over the fact that I might need to put more fuel in the car (at 8 to 9 dollars a gallon which I'm currently pouring into my 2002 GT), as a purchase price for a car that is just too much of a financial drain for most.
Neko, I think you may have misconstrued my point. Since 1964, Ford's Mustang has offered to the buying public a great-looking (with the possible exception of the ill-conceived Mustang II), great-handling, fun to drive vehicle-- one which engenders tremendous pride of ownership. That it did/does so at a relatively economical price level is merely icing on the cake. As has been pointed out, the bulk of Mustang's production has typically been the V-6, not your average muscle car power plant, I'll grant you, but the inception of the current 3.7 has given those who opted for the six... and I am proud to be counted as one... a nasty little firecracker which will run rings around most cars on the road today. Some owners, looking for even greater performance, eventually move up to the V-8, but even they don't seriously badmouth the 3.7. But I'll be glad to bet that over its 50 year history, relatively few Mustangs have been purchased as an "economy" car; they are a driving experience-- one we'll tell about for the rest of our lives when the talk turns to "great cars I've owned".
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Old 9/12/14, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Krohn View Post
White2010... I side more with Azure here...
I think you're confusing "tuners" with high-school kids.
The turner market isn't JUST a bunch of riced out civics, it also includes Supras, Skylines, GT-Rs, the NSX, 370z, Sti.... yadda.... (and I doubt many call a GT-R rice). Even the M3 is considered by most a "Tuner." All of those are awesome platforms to build on. Most have a 6 cylinder motor but some are moving towards a 4 (i.e. WRX).
I think Ford is going about it the right way. The EcoBoost isn't to replace the V8; at least not for a long time, if ever. It's there to, honestly, make the lineup more efficient and cutting edge (also global regulations and etc. lol).

The Mustang, oddly enough is as much of a tuner today as a 370z is. Hec, the first mod people do nowadays is a TUNE, then an exhaust, and then lowering springs... sound familiar? Maybe like a "tuner"? The TT/i4 will be an awesome option beside the NA/V8 in the lineup.

Let's not let F&F Tokyo Drift lead us the wrong way on our opinions of the EcoBoost.

... Oh and for me, I'll still take the V8.
I'm not trying to imply that "Tuners" are high school kids. What I will say is that when it comes to Mustangs the tuner crowd is out there and they don't buy new Mustangs. They buy used Mustangs that are anywhere from 3 to 10 years old on average. Heck here where I live there are a lot of guys that are buying SN95's and tuning them. I know that "tuner" is just the modern day word that took the place of what used to be called "hot rodders". This happens because every successive generation thinks they have reinvented the wheel and so they use a whole new vernacular in a lot of respects because there is just no way that Mom and Dad were ever cool so you must not sound like them or talk like them lest you be "not cool" too.

The point I'm making is that the new ecoboost Mustang will attract neither the "tuner" nor the "millennials" in large numbers. It won't attract them for the same reason that the FR-S didn't attract them. It's out of their price range. We can discuss Skylines and GT-R's if you like but the reality is that those cars are a fraction of a percent of what tuners drive. They are very much the exception and not the rule. Even when those cars are the property of a "tuner" they tend to be used cars, not new cars.

Last edited by White2010; 9/12/14 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 9/14/14, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Mickstang View Post
But I'll be glad to bet that over its 50 year history, relatively few Mustangs have been purchased as an "economy" car; they are a driving experience-- one we'll tell about for the rest of our lives when the talk turns to "great cars I've owned".
Oh, I'll grant you that I could've driven something WAY more economical than the Stang... But I'm having too much fun with the Stang to let something like fuel economy stop me too much
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Old 9/14/14, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Boss 0960 View Post
The Chevelle/Malibu SS 396 hardtop coupe was every bit a muscle car and it was sold alongside it's grocery getter 6-cylinder 4-door sedan, post coupe and wagon siblings. Just because the Challenger is based on a Charger platform doesn't make it less of a muscle car, just as the Chevelle SS is no less a muscle car because it also came as a sedan, budget post coupe and wagon. The Challenger really is the only true muscle car today. It it a run of the mill economy coupe in some guises but can be equipped with a big cube, big power engine if you want it that way. That's exactly how the muscle car market worked in the 60's. You could buy the grocery getter 6-cylinder, the small V8 or the monster big block muscle version all in the same body depending on your plans for the car. Also, the 340 Challenger was considered a pony car. However, equipping it with the 440ci or 426ci Hemi engine took away it's pony car status and turned it into a genuine muscle car. The definition of muscle car very much depends on which engine you put in the car, not the body you put it in. For example, a Pontiac Tempest was not a muscle car but a GTO was. A Buick Skylark was not a muscle car but a GS455/GSX was. A 2014 six cylinder Challenger is not a muscle car but a 2014 Challenger SRT392 is. I don't really know how to classify the 2014 GT500. It's not a pony car but it's not a muscle car to me. It's something different altogether.
I'm not sure how you wouldn't classify the 2014 GT500 a muscle car. It's essentially a classic theme that is set with many modern technologies of today. If it had 4 doors, like what they did to the Charger, then I would it's classification had changed. IMO, it's right in line with where you would expect a GT500 to be after 40-some years.

I hope everyone knows that the 2005 Mustang was based off of the Ford Five Hundred platform of cars. It's pretty common for the car manufacturers to have common platforms between them. There was an article years ago about that. After that article, it was plain to see that the 05 would be bigger than the new edges. Sometimes I think the Charger was reincarnated into a 4 door to compete in the police car business. They knew Ford and Chevy was going to be shrinking their mainstay patrol cars and saw an opportunity. I'm veering off topic, but the point I'm trying to make is that the Charger is not a muscle car, and the GT500 is so much yes a muscle car.
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