I like guns and I think the "Patriot" act and such are BS.

And with guns, I can shoot the feds who take away my rights. Like I always say, it's the government who should be afraid of its people not the other way around.

 

but " we the people " most often put the wrong people in office .. guv offices were once a privilage .. now they are a career ..

 

Thank you, V.

 

There shouldn't be any. Anyone with half a brain and in contact with reality will understand these times are no longer about sweet bedtime stories and happy endings. Besides, it is not that much of an issue specially not for law abiding citizens and the minor inconveniences caused the law of the land are a better alternative than getting blown up which brings up the point of how many of those who perrished on 911 would be objecting to the Patriot Act or illegal wiretaps if they had the chance and understood their predicament. Surely there would be many perhaps even possibly the majority, if they were alive. Unfortunately for them they cannot do a thing about it, they can't complain, they can't vote, they don't have a say, they got screwed out of their chance.

Those who feel safe and isolated from threats usually demand a higher standard of having their right observed but quickly change their mind if harm or loss of life hits close to home. Those who are in the line of fire have a much clearer understanding.

 

People discuss the horrible intrusion the Patriot Act has caused on our rights, but in all sincerity I seriously doubt you can find a single person on this forum who has been personally affected by it. Does that make all of those changes a good thing? No. But diminishing the rights provided under the Second Amendment would affect a great many here without question.

As for me looking to 'mother' for help...well, we both know you don't know me but this just makes that fact obvious to anyone who does. My paternal ancestors fought in every major American conflict since King George was declared unfit (my family graveyard sits on land awarded to my family for service in the Revolutionary war, no doubt a big part of the reason my rights mean so much to me but I like to think I'd be wise enough to value them even if this wasn't the case) and they started a long tradition of making sure that the knowledge and the means to take care of our own is a mainstay.

Frankly, the mindset that has people waiting for the govt to help in case of disaster is absolutely lost on me. I always thought the American ideal was to be the one who helps in times of disaster. Apparently I missed the memo stating that everyone should be a worthless blob waiting for the next govt handout.

Last I checked my personal liberties were doing pretty well despite leftists rants that the second means absolutely nothing while wiretapping is the sign of impending doom. In fact, I got some of the rights I had lost under the Clinton administration back under the Bush administration. Last I checked the leftists fascists who want to completely strip the Consitution didn't hold any serious measure of power here. And even if they did the system would almost certainly bring their little 'experiments' to a screeching hault as it always has before. Of course, the fact that the second is still here as the ultimate indicator and end game defender of our rights is appreciated too.

Is Hillary in office already and I was caught unaware? When she has jack-booted thugs kicking in our doors I'll prop an eyebrow. Thus far most of the talk attempting to strip our rights has been grandstanding by radical leftists like Diane Feinstein. There has never been a serious, lasting threat to infringe on the rights of the American populace. Arguably the closest we came to this was under Bill Clinton, but as I indicated above the system did it's job (primarily via the DOJ and the court system in general) and his little expeditions were nipped in the bud. Unfortunately he wasn't held accountable for the murder of American citizens under color of authority by people under his direct control. But as indicated above the system did it's job as it has for centuries which is all I can ask of it.

The Bush administration suits me just fine. I don't approve of everything in the Patriot Act but at least it is being done because of a foreign threat. The difference between this administration and the last is that this one doesn't seem to feel as though conservative southerners are somehow the enemy. Can't really say that about the last one.

In fact, I don't expect that any serious attempt to curtail gun rights will ever succeed here. Too many people place too much value on knowing that the power here still rests with the people, and the second was and always will be the ultimate indication that this is the case.

Ironically enough crime went down drastically in Florida following the introduction of seriously relaxed right to carry laws in that state. And while we both have indicated we have a problem with a stats based argument there are no stats to indicate otherwise in this instance.....making this pretty difficult to refute.

Put really plainly, criminals become a bit less enthusiastic if they think they might end up on a slab somewhere for their trouble. I have personally cut short two attempts to break into my home (one when I lived in Florida and one in Tennessee) simply by showing the potential offender the wrong end of a large caliber handgun. Both were considerably more fleet of foot than I expected, and I can't ask for a better result than that.

I'm still waiting for you to prove why it shouldn't be a right.

 

That tells me everything I need to know. That said, this was a discussion about handgun ownership, not partisan politics, or "Lefties vs. Righties."

Personally, I consider myself a centrist - and not everything is about liberal values vs. conservative values, though it's often packaged and sold that way for what is perceived to be a stupid populace. In the real world, life is a thousand shades of gray. I myself am VERY [small 'c'] conservative about some things and yet quite liberal about others. I make my choices based upon common sense and my own moral compass, not what is dictated to me by a polarized "system" that, while technically free and democratic, employs subtle tactics all through our society to tell me what I should think and feel, whether it's right OR left.

Again, is being granted a driver's license a "right"? No. Is carrying around a can of concealed Mace a right in many states? No. Why should carrying around a deadly weapon designed for only one purpose - killing people - be a "right"? How do you jump the logic barricade into that kind of ethical intransigence?

While it's true that seasoned criminals will likely find access to firearms even if further restrictions were imposed (that's the nature of all contraband, after all), we're not talking about repeat offenders in cases like Virginia Tech or Columbine. We're talking about nutjobs who can purchase handguns legally with very little effort or scrutiny placed upon them, then go out on a bender and kill dozens of people. Usually, it's their first and last crime, so you're not likely going to get much warning.

So I ask you, is your right to possess and publicly carry around a deadly handgun worth the lives of the dozens of people who have been slaughtered because of that right?

You said it yourself: guns are a tool like any other. Why should your right to carry around such a "tool" supersede a person's right to live? Cause that's what we're really talking about after you strip away all the philosophical arguments - people's lives. In the singular nature of the handgun debate - unlike almost any other - a tool has been elevated above the sanctity of people's lives.

But as you said before, neither of us are going to change the other's mind, so let's just agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

 

So now the argument has degraded to the point where I am accused of not having an opinion because my viewpoint on government can be described as generally conservative? You don't really think you are the first leftist/modern liberal to break that one out do you? In my experience during any debate with a liberal sooner or later they declare themselves a centrist and the argument slides into thinly veiled insults directed toward anyone who has an opinion contrary to theirs, under the guise of free thought or the lack thereof of course. (in fact I think I've met two admitted leftists in my life at this point and possibly a couple thousand centrists) Since we can more or less put a check in both of those columns now I think we can say you've told me everything I need to know as well.

 

we can settle this like " gentlemen "

 

LOL. Hoss, I think you've been taking lessons from 1BULLITT.

 

 

I don't understand why the first thing that comes out of peoples mouth after a tragedy like this is some type of gun control. There are a lot more people killed by vehicles and drunk drivers I don't here people talking about prohibition. I have a gun safe next to me with about 30 guns in it some military most not but all semi-auto. I grew up hunting with guns and respect them. A lot of blue states just will never understand what the second amendment means to us and I would also not expect a Canadian to understand either where your right has already been taken away. We have had a terrible thing happen in my state by a crazy nut. Just pray for the victims and the families.

 

A-men brother

P.S. Tell me about the Locomotive in your avatar
My pictures on rp.net
http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=8982

 

This guy was crazy since childhood. Grandfather in korea even said so. We have a family who is not responsible enough by commiting their kid in some sort of controlled environment or institution. The end result 32 dead. Gun control or not it won't make any difference.

 

One thing that has not been mentioned it praying for Cho Seung-Hui the gunman. I do not wish for any person to suffer in hell for any reason, god makes it clear that all sins can be forgiven unconditionaly. So I beleive in his finals instant between shooting himself and passing to whereeve,r he is given a choice to join god or not. I only pray that in that instant after his death he gave his life to god. that is all.

 

There ain't no forgiving. Anyone being a SOB here by choice doesn't get the luxury of picking the penthouse suite later. Besides, anyone who enjoys inflicting pain so much should not be denied the opportunity to experiencing and enjoying it himself.

 

Because there's no other deadly weapon that is so widely available, easily acquired, and capable of killing so many people in quick succession.

The Second Amendment doesn't apply to the world we live in now, and I really have to question whether large weapons arsenals are what the Founding Fathers had in mind. Same notation for private citizens carrying around concealed handguns in public.

The truth is, gun ownership is a vice for most owners, but it's hardly a necessity. And a vice ought not to be a "right." If John Doe is allowed to pack a deadly firearm under his armpit and carry it around in public, then why shouldn't I be allowed to smoke a joint in peace while sitting under a tree in the park? My vice won't kill anyone.

 

this is needing to be put to bed now ( lock it please )

 

A sin is a sin. I have sinned before in life, which makes me equal to the gunman in terms of not being worthy of heaven. God does not judge on a sliding scale. you are either perfect or not. and so far eveyone but jesus is on the not perfect side. And any person can be forgiven by god to be as worthy as jesus christ himself.

 

i AGREE hoss 429.

Lo Que Paso paso

 

I guess you haven't read Dante's Inferno then