Lalo

I gotta watch it imax 3D,
both times i watched it on standard screens (my wife isn't a fan of 3D)

Moustang

I feel that Rey's abilities using the Force is a serious breach of canon. We're told throughout the first 6 films that it takes YEARS to master the force. Luke could barely use it to shoot a single missile in A New Hope, and was only just learning the basics in The Empire Strikes Back, and that was with the help of Yoda.

Then here comes Rey. She knows nothing about the force, and then one old crone in a bar tells her to close her eyes and suddenly she can read minds and overpower a direct descendant of the Skywalker family who has spent years training in the use of the force. In the span of just a day or two she goes from thinking the Force is just a fable to being able to use the force so well that she can force pull the lightsaber away despite Kylo's efforts to retrieve it. Virtual mastery with no previous experience and no training whatsoever.

What does she need Luke for? At the rate she's going she should be the most powerful being in the universe in another month. I mean, even with all of their training neither Luke nor Vader could read minds, but she can the very first day without any training at all.


And that was just the beginning of the plot holes and breaks in canon in this movie. Lucas wasn't the best writer or director, but at least he knew how to keep his franchise consistent.


That aside I enjoyed the movie, despite the fact that it was little more than a remake of A New Hope.

Moustang

He's hardly intimidating when he can get his butt kicked by a girl who has had absolutely no training whatsoever in a lightsaber dual.

It doesn't make any sense at all and is a massive breach in Star Wars canon. Even the greatest Jedi of all time had to spend years of training to become masters. She goes from zero to virtual mastery in 2 days with no training at all?

Kylo is powerful enough to wipe out an entire school of Jedi in training and force his Jedi Master uncle into hiding, he can stop a blaster bolt in mid-air, he can read minds, and he can practically crush a person's skull with just a thought, but he can't handle one untrained girl who has never held a lightsaber in her life?

There's no logical explanation for that. NONE.

GottaHaveIt

How about the Death Star they never learned & made the mega weapon just as cheesy

Moustang

Oh, I could spend a few days going through all of the plot holes.


Apparently the entire Republic is 6 planets, all in the same star system.

The First Order has only existed for a few years, but they already have the resources to turn an entire planet into a weapon. Conveniently this planet just happens to be in the same star system as The Republic, but they knew nothing about it.

The First Order took Fin away from his family as a child, but they weren't formed until after Kylo turned on to the Dark Side.

Luke was running a school to train Jedi until Kylo turned and killed them all, but everyone who is roughly the same age as Kylo thinks it's all a myth from the distant past.

The Republic supports the resistance against the First Order, but the resistance only has a single base while the First Order apparently has limitless resources despite having no territorial control beyond their super death star.

Despite developing the technology to turn an entire planet into a giant weapon, the First Order still uses old Tie Fighters and the resistance still uses old X-Wings, but apparently the resistance has lost all of their B and Y wing fighters as well as their giant armada of larger ships.

And on and on and on and on.

2011 Kona Blue

You sir are a genius! Couldn't agree with your more. #Bringbackgeogelucas

Lalo

Luke, with no proper lightsaber training (that little bit on the millennium falcon) and barely any training with Yoda, was able to withstand a lot from his father, who had been extensively trained from a child and was a grizzled veteran, in The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. Rey had experience with makeshift weapons and was pretty agile what with having to scavenge through large downed spacecraft her whole life, a very unsheltered childhood compared to Luke's. Add some Force to the mix and that's what you get. Kylo's expertise and mastery of the force is nowhere close to where his grandfather's level was at the beginning of the Original Trilogy, so him not annihialting Rey isn't so far fetch.

Again, her being able to use the force so willingly so quickly goes back to her being the chosen one (and probably that balance of good/evil theory I had), the one to bring balance to the Force, which was talked about so much in Episodes 1-3. Anikin failed and obviously Luke failed. Rey is the one.

As to why Rey is able to perform Jedi mind tricks, I think that's what you meant by "read minds," so quickly while the Skywalkers have been unable to, well, I think that has to do with my other theory that can be totally wrong, but I think she is Obi-Wan Kenobi's granddaughter.

Now hear me out... both Rey and Obi-Wan are the only protagonists to have British accents. The Skywalkers have been unable to bring balance to the universe because they are so unbalanced themselves, being highly emotional and bringing lots of baggage. Obi-Wan on the other hand was able to keep his emotions in check, even after Anikin betrayed him, and didn't go out looking for blood. What was Obi-Wan doing on Tatooine for 20some years? Who did Yoda mean when he said, "There is another"? We obviously know it wasn't Leia now, since the universe still has not seen peace (although Leia was probably who Lucas meant originally). Or perhaps Rey was conceived by the Will of the Force, a la Anikin, or she's Luke's Daughter (all signs point to), or she's Rylo's twin.

I love Star Wars

Lalo

And plot holes is what the Star Wars universe is made out of (one of the reasons it's so fun). Papa George isn't a complete saint. Suspension of disbelief is a must when watching any of the Episodes.
http://www.movieplotholes.com/index.html

Lalo

FORCE KICK!

2k7gtcs

People see what they want to see

I see holes and ridiculousness

But I just saw it a second time and had to fight off sleep during it this time

Joeywhat

He got shot in the gut with a freaking bowcaster and you expect him to still just kick *** like nothing is wrong? That same shot KILLED literally everyone else in the movie who got hit by it.

Also, let's remember that it's a movie and not a **** documentary.

Joeywhat

"omg there's plot holes" yeah like literally EVERY OTHER MOVIE EVER. It's sci-fi/fantasy. Use your imagination, next you're gonna start telling us how Harry Potter wasn't realistic...

2011 Kona Blue

Omg, so funny you say about fighting to fall asleep. I was practually falling asleep when I saw the movie and that was just once.

2011 Kona Blue

Yeah, the same bowcaster that throws everyone else like 25 feet but not him. He just kneels down.

GrnT

Same. Still enjoyed it but had to try harder to stay awake.

Mickstang

Meh, it's a Disney movie. As such, it's merely a vehicle for them to rake in billions in merchandising and licensing rights like soup and fast food. They're all a bunch of hoors; it's a requirement to get a job there.

houtex

And I, for what it matters, can spend those days sewing a lot of them up.

Untrue. This is like saying the entirety of the United States is in Washington DC. The Hosnian system, more importantly Hosnian Prime, is the seat of the Republic. The Republic is a whole lot of systems, but the First Order just decided to nuke the head (Washington DC) because arrogant and cunning at the same time. The Republic is likely to be in chaos as the power vacuum that is left behind by the destruction of the ENTIRE government offices (with a few exceptions... think Battlestar Galactica and the Secretary of Education being moved up to President of the Colonies.)

The First Order is the remnants, and that is large, of the Empire, mostly 'centered', if you will, in the outer rim of systems, out of the way, out of the notice of the Republic. It's not surprising that a large portion of them would have the resources and time, after 30 years, to hollow out portions of a small planet and construct the third of a series of technological terrors. That they made it so much larger, they could install superior shields. These were better than either the first Death Star, which couldn't withstand small fighters at all, or the second Death Star, which had yet to have *any* shields, and depended on the ONE SINGULAR station on the Moon of Endor. That they didn't have two speaks of monetary issues... or arrogance.

Anyway, back to Starkiller. If it weren't for the weakness (intentionally or not) of Phasma, Starkiller Base would still be around. Period. There might have been one or two other bad *** pilots in the vein of Han Solo to hyperspace under the shields, and they wouldn't have been enough at all.

They learned *plenty*... just didn't plan on Han Solo rejoining the fight is all. Or Phasma fangirling at the very sight of the Traitor named Finn aka FN-2187, and lowering the shield for him. **** near swoons at his being in the room with her. I swear, they're gonna wind up married, watch.

As to why... well, this thing can decimate an entire *system*. Not just one planet. It takes out a sun, then fires the energy into the planets. Even if it just ate the sun, your system is dead. Just a matter of if they let you survive the sun being eaten or not at that point.

As far as it being in the same system... hyperdrives, yo. Yavin isn't anywhere near Alderaan. And Endor is really far away from any of the systems that the Empire would need to hit. These things come with big *** hyperdrives. Starkiller wouldn't be any different. We just haven't been witness on the screens of this action, it's always smaller capital ships doing it. But they build that thing elsewhere, and moved it into position with hyperdrive.

Again, First Order is the new name of the Empire. It's NOT new. It's just... different. Like WWI Germany vs WWII, as an example. Which was the point, actually.

You have to understand this correctly. Timelines are *60* years from the time that Jedi were around, and then only 10,000 strong. They were already mystical and sparse, except on Coruscant. When Anakin turned to Vader, and destroyed the Order, along with the Clone troopers, leaving only a handful, if that, of Jedi... and those went into hiding... That the Jedi went into obscurity.

Secondly, the Emperor played it perfectly. He *intentionally* got disfigured. You don't beat three out of four *Jedi Council Masters* and leave Mace around without being able to dispatch Mace just as easily. Palpatine had to play two cards... the sympathy/anguish card for Anakin, for fear that Mace would end his chance to save Padme, and the sympathy/anger card for the Senate and Populace, the evil Jedi were taking over, and it was the barest of margins he didn't get taken out.

He did that on purpose. He had to. That VERY moment was the pivotal one. Either Anakin turned on his Jedi brethren, or he didn't, at that point, Palpatine was dead. He was all in on this gambit, the penultimate payoff point of the entire decades long plot to become Emperor.

Anyway, with the Empire happening, and the way the Jedi 'turned' against it, of course nobody knows the Jedi story anymore. The Victors rewrote the books, and the populace went along with it. Didn't help that the Jedi were the *peacekeepers* of the galaxy... read cops. Enforcers.

The people, by then, before they knew the Empire was what is was, were ready to forget the Jedi and move on, the war had gotten tiresome. Further, let's be honest... Joe Schmo of 123 Anywhere Street, Thatcity, Thisprovice, Middle Class Planet, Median System, The Empire, isn't likely to even care about the Empire as he's probably got a steady job and a house and stuff. Whatever.

So it's no surprise the Jedi aren't but legends and folklore by the time Rey and Finn become characters we watch.

Yeah, this does bug me. I'm gonna leave it alone, except to say that perhaps the primary base they had was on Hosnia Prime, and, well, whoops. But even that's not likely, see below. Overall, though, that'd be like the US being destroyed, and what other bases are in range of the remaining bases? They had to defend THAT one, and that right now, or run and lose the resource. You defend your resources if possible.

Besides, we had to save Rey, so.. (Plot device alert! )

These aren't your father's Tie Fighters. They're upgraded, two seaters, rear and front cannons, independently targetable, and sensors that see past those big... whatever they are. Radiators, solar collectors. I'll never understand their use, to be honest. But they aren't the same old same old. They're faster, more maneuverable, and very deadly in the right hands.

Also, think Korea or Vietnam. 100 little planes flown acceptably is a lot worse than 10 very well flown planes in combat. That's the idea. Overwhelming numbers. No need to change that, and some of those TIE fighter pilots are **** good.

As far as the A, B, and Y fighters. The A fighter is the equivalent of the F104 Starfighter. Fast, lightly armed, difficult to fly. Missile with a man in it. They're not good except for intercepting, and even then, you'd rather have something else.

The B wing and Y wing are both bombers, with some fighting capability for defense. They are not the best fighters to do the mission either, both being poor atmospheric performers. The B Wing, with its rotating cockpit, was exceedingly difficult to fly correctly. The Y wing is just straight forward. B wing would be, oh, a Canberra maybe, and the Y wing a nice B25 Mitchell.

As far as the X Wings... look again. They are the upgraded Incom models, T-70 fighters, not the T-65 Incoms of old. They are very similar, but the T-70 is a slightly smaller, more maneuverable fighter than the T-65s.

But you are correct in that they're hand me downs. Here's why:

The Resistance is not FORMERLY part of the Republic.

The Resistance is a grass roots campaign, much like the Rebellion was in the previous years, being supplied surreptitiously by certain worlds of the Republic. The Rebellion can't be seen as being officially part of the Republic.

Or at least, that's what the crawl basically told us.

The First Order, being all pissed off that was going on, decided that the Republic's head had to come off, so boom, 'bye Hosnia.

---

But that's ok. Just what I know to be the case/can guess by reading between the lines. Plot devices, all of them.

One thing to keep in mind regarding anything about Star Wars, folks, is this:

We can debate, discuss, postulate, guess, etc, ad nauseum. We can come up with grandiose plans and theories, and argue semantics and 'facts', but when push comes to shove, at the end of the day... This stuff ain't real.

But it's kinda fun to talk about.

houtex

Shut your face, all that stuff happened exactly as told.

Lalo

houtex, i wish i could string together such coherent sentences in a row like that

AlsCobra

Oh my god this thread right here! See what happens when I take a TMS break!

I am a huge Star Wars fan. I was there for the very first movie. It was amazing. As were all the rest thereafter.

But this thread.......

I'm just gonna leave this here from another movie.