Some good news from Iraq
5/16/04, 11:34 PM
#22
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This way you increase next attack.
See man, I came to USA because I'm sick and tired of wars, because since I was 8 until recently I always lived in the country that was in the war. Now, when I finally came here I thought that thing with war is finally over. Guess I was wrong.
See man, I came to USA because I'm sick and tired of wars, because since I was 8 until recently I always lived in the country that was in the war. Now, when I finally came here I thought that thing with war is finally over. Guess I was wrong.
5/16/04, 11:41 PM
#23
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Man, I dont know what it is like living in a warzone. I'm sure it's not fun. But that is why we have to defend ourselves. We have to try to prevent the next attack. If it means war, so be it. It is kill or be killed.
5/19/04, 01:49 AM
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Dude, we tried repetitively to end any and all conflicts peacefully! Under the Clinton administration, President Clinton gave Iraq and several other threatening dictatorships multiple opportunities to meet on common ground so that no blood had to be shed. Too many opportunities, IMO... But, Clinton didn't lay down as many peace-loving delusionals wished, and instead used force in the necessary situations. (One of the few things I like about Clinton) Milosevic was a murderer, and if you or anyone says that ousting a cruel and heartless dictator like that only makes a situation worse, it's because you don't see the whole picture. Maybe that country IS worse off now. But, how do you know that's because of the US bombing and new leadership? Maybe other social and political unrest caused instability in a country that otherwise could have been saved.
Sure, we went on the offensive after 3,000 of our innocent brothers lost their lives in a selfish act of violence. Any country that wouldn't do so either 1) doesn't have the resources/manpower to carry out an attack, or 2) simply does not care enough about its citizens to defend them from any outside threat. The difference between the World Trade Center attacks in 2001 and the Serbian attacks in 1999 is that nobody here truly deserved it. Milosevic did. Innocent lives were lost, true, but ample warnings were given to the citizens and even Milosevic himself.
If we ever went into a country the way the terrorists of 9/11 did to us, that country should have every right to attack us and any country aiding us in such operations. Saddam Hussein may have no direct ties to al-qaida or 9/11, but he is one of the most deplorable villains to ever walk the earth. Osama bin Laden is still alive, but we have him in constant fear of his life. We went in and overthrew the Taliban regime, and isolated the terrorists in that part of the world.
The peace-seeking mentality is the type that tells me I can't keep a gun next to my bed so I can protect my family at night from an intruder. They tell you that there is always a peaceful solution to situations like that. There is, to me... If that intruder is dead because I shot him in self-defense, I know he will not come back. Maybe he saw my wife and wants to come back and rape her another night. If I let him leave with a gun in his hand, how do I myself have peace. I am not the criminal. The US is NOT the criminal. We do police the world. We stepped into a dictatorship in Iraq, overthrew the dictator, and are leaving it up to the Iraqi people how they want their government run. A democracy was chosen, and it will be run by Iraqi citizens. Not a ruthless murderer. That alone is worth the cost of the war, as well as the lives of my friends and fellow citizens.
You are right, though... if someone came to America and bombed us, occupying our streets and setting up a new government, I would hate it... America is the greatest nation on earth, and is wonderful just how it is. Ask any Iraqi or Iraqi-American how life was like in Iraq when Saddam was in power, and 99 times out of 100, they'll say it wasn't life, but death.
:usa:
Sure, we went on the offensive after 3,000 of our innocent brothers lost their lives in a selfish act of violence. Any country that wouldn't do so either 1) doesn't have the resources/manpower to carry out an attack, or 2) simply does not care enough about its citizens to defend them from any outside threat. The difference between the World Trade Center attacks in 2001 and the Serbian attacks in 1999 is that nobody here truly deserved it. Milosevic did. Innocent lives were lost, true, but ample warnings were given to the citizens and even Milosevic himself.
If we ever went into a country the way the terrorists of 9/11 did to us, that country should have every right to attack us and any country aiding us in such operations. Saddam Hussein may have no direct ties to al-qaida or 9/11, but he is one of the most deplorable villains to ever walk the earth. Osama bin Laden is still alive, but we have him in constant fear of his life. We went in and overthrew the Taliban regime, and isolated the terrorists in that part of the world.
The peace-seeking mentality is the type that tells me I can't keep a gun next to my bed so I can protect my family at night from an intruder. They tell you that there is always a peaceful solution to situations like that. There is, to me... If that intruder is dead because I shot him in self-defense, I know he will not come back. Maybe he saw my wife and wants to come back and rape her another night. If I let him leave with a gun in his hand, how do I myself have peace. I am not the criminal. The US is NOT the criminal. We do police the world. We stepped into a dictatorship in Iraq, overthrew the dictator, and are leaving it up to the Iraqi people how they want their government run. A democracy was chosen, and it will be run by Iraqi citizens. Not a ruthless murderer. That alone is worth the cost of the war, as well as the lives of my friends and fellow citizens.
You are right, though... if someone came to America and bombed us, occupying our streets and setting up a new government, I would hate it... America is the greatest nation on earth, and is wonderful just how it is. Ask any Iraqi or Iraqi-American how life was like in Iraq when Saddam was in power, and 99 times out of 100, they'll say it wasn't life, but death.
:usa:
5/19/04, 02:44 AM
#27
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Originally posted by Stella Rossa / Red Star@May. 16th, 2004, 8:03 PM
I didn't want to offend anyone either, I'm not an American, so I think differently than you guys. I know what other people think of Americans, and I know what Americans think about other people. Now, I don't mean to offend you, but what I'm gonna tell you is 100% true. A lot of people don't like Americans. Why? Because you guys always think you're the best at everything. If someone have different thinking, or if someone runs things the way you don't like it, you're gonna do whatever is in your power to change that. Some examples are war in Iraq and bombing of my home country, Serbia in the summer of 1999. Like I said, you didn't like at that time president of Serbia, and you did everything you could to throw him out, including bombing. Now, Serbia got new president, but things are worse now for Serbia. But now you guys don't care about that, the important thing for USA is that Serbia have president who will do whatever USA told him to do.
You probably won't believe now, but that's the truth. I'm from Europe, I used to live there, and I still have a lot of friends there, and I know what's really going on.
Just out of curiosity, did you saw a movie called Behind Enemy Lines with Owen Wilson and Gene Hackman? If you did, I'm gonna give you few examples about that movie, what really happend and what American media says it happend.
I didn't want to offend anyone either, I'm not an American, so I think differently than you guys. I know what other people think of Americans, and I know what Americans think about other people. Now, I don't mean to offend you, but what I'm gonna tell you is 100% true. A lot of people don't like Americans. Why? Because you guys always think you're the best at everything. If someone have different thinking, or if someone runs things the way you don't like it, you're gonna do whatever is in your power to change that. Some examples are war in Iraq and bombing of my home country, Serbia in the summer of 1999. Like I said, you didn't like at that time president of Serbia, and you did everything you could to throw him out, including bombing. Now, Serbia got new president, but things are worse now for Serbia. But now you guys don't care about that, the important thing for USA is that Serbia have president who will do whatever USA told him to do.
You probably won't believe now, but that's the truth. I'm from Europe, I used to live there, and I still have a lot of friends there, and I know what's really going on.
Just out of curiosity, did you saw a movie called Behind Enemy Lines with Owen Wilson and Gene Hackman? If you did, I'm gonna give you few examples about that movie, what really happend and what American media says it happend.
) Everyone hates the rich. Everyone hates the powerful. Anyone on top is hated. We would be hated no matter what we do...Despite how much money has been given for foreign aid from America we are hated. They hate us because of the freedom, and our prosperity. Not because of anything we have done. Everything we do is to help other nations despite what you would LIKE to think.
Just like we are rebuilding Iraq, we REBUILT EUROPE after WWII. Don't you forget.
Personally I don't mind the hatred. It's not my problem. If they want to hate me fine.
Of course, many Americans want to put our nation in submission to the world, in an effort to appease the rest of the world which hates us because we are the most powerful. They want to put our armed forces under the command of foreigners.
That's exactly what Kerry wants to do. He calls himself a heroe, yet he promises to be a traitor if elected...To put our own Millitary under the power of the rest of the world. He wants to put us undersubmission.
Don't tell me how horrible my country is and say that is why we are hated. My country has been the opposite of hostile towards other nations. Instead of invading, we hand our military over to other countries authority. Is that hostile?
WE are hated because we are on top, and no one else can except it. :notnice:
Oh and BTW, it is not our responsibility to help you guys out. We are hated on princible, and then when we come to help you cut us some slack, but if we don't help enough we are hated even more.
When did we sign up as the official world Red Cross? "We the rest of the world Decalre you, the United States to provide finincial aid to the rest of the world when needed. If you Don't we hate you. Oh and BTW, we hate you anyway."
I'm sick and tired of us trying to please everyone...
How about our Nation have this policy? how would this be accepted?
"For now on, we couldn't care less if your nation dies of hunger, or you are invaded by another country or if an evil dictator starves and oppresses his people.
We'll just leave you alone and see how you like it. "
[/rant]
5/19/04, 05:07 AM
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Amen brother! Let's just take care of our own little part of the world and screw the rest. We can have fair trade and fair dealings with them but let's just keep it at that. If they don't like it, don't sell your goods to us and we won't sell ours to you. I don't remember signing on to be the world's peacekeeper and Red Cross. When did this happen.
5/19/04, 10:17 AM
#29
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Just to set the record straight, the Bosnia/Serbia campaign was STARTED by the United Nations. The US was there because we were fulfilling our UN duties. Don't for a minute blame Serbia's woes on the USA when in fact it was a UN response to the genocide. You're just blaming the USA because we had the biggest hammer. When are you going to point the finger at the UN for getting involved when it shouldn't have? Oh ya...you won't 'cause everything is the USA's fault.
Sorry...just a little sick of everyone always getting mad at the USA. No one seems to give a crap about the French shooting things up in the Ivory Coast, or the genocide of tribes in Africa. God forbid the USA moves in somewhere to defend itself from future attacks.
Sorry...just a little sick of everyone always getting mad at the USA. No one seems to give a crap about the French shooting things up in the Ivory Coast, or the genocide of tribes in Africa. God forbid the USA moves in somewhere to defend itself from future attacks.
5/19/04, 11:06 AM
#30
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Originally posted by Dr Iven@May. 19th, 2004, 1:52 AM
Milosevic was a murderer, and if you or anyone says that ousting a cruel and heartless dictator like that only makes a situation worse, it's because you don't see the whole picture.
Milosevic was a murderer, and if you or anyone says that ousting a cruel and heartless dictator like that only makes a situation worse, it's because you don't see the whole picture.
I was in the war in former Yugoslavia, and I know what each nation did. I know what Croatia did to the Serbs (I'm Serb) just because so-called United Nations help them. United Nations were supposed to be there to keep peace, not to help each nation to win the war.
Read this:
In early August 1995, the Croatian invasion of Serbian Krajina precipitated the worst refugee crisis of the Yugoslav civil war. Within days, more than two hundred thousand Serbs, virtually the entire population of Krajina, fled their homes, and 14,000 Serbian civilians lost them lives. According to a UN official "Almost the only people remaining were the dead and the dying." The Clinton administration's support for the invasion was an important factor in creating this nightmare.
The previous month, Secretary of State Warren Christopher and German Foreign Minister Klaus Kinkel met with Croatian diplomat Miomir Zuzul in London. During this meeting, Christopher gave his approval for Croatian military action against Serbs in Bosnia and Krajina. Two days later, the U.S. ambassador to Croatia, Peter Galbright, also approved Croatia's invasion plan. Stipe Mesic, a prominent Croatian politician, stated that Croatian President Franjo Tudjman "received the go-ahead from the United States. Tudjman can do only what the Amecans allow him to do. Krajina is the reward for having accepted, under Washington's pressure, the federation between Croats and Muslims in Bosnia." Croatian assembly deputy Mate Mestrovic also claimed that the "United States gave us the green light to do whetever had to be done." (1)
As Croatian troops launched their assault on August 4, U.S. NATO aircraft destroyed Serbian radar and anti-aircraft defenses. American EA-6B electronic warfare aircraft patrolled the air in support of the invasion. Krajina foreign affairs advisor Slobodan Jarcevic stated that NATO "completely led and coordinated the entire Croat offensive by first destroying radar and anti-aircraft batteries. What NATO did most for the Croatian Army was to jam communications between [Serb] military commands...." (2)
Following the elimination of Serbian anti-aircraft defenses, Croatian planes carried out extensive attacks on Serbian towns and positions. The roads were clogged with refugees, and Croatian aircraft bombed and strafed refugee columns. Serbian refugees passing through the town of Sisak were met by a mob of Croatian extremists, who hurled rocks and concrete at them. A UN spokesman said, "The windows of almost every vehicle were smashed and almost every person was bleeding from being hit by some object." Serbian refugees were pulled from their vehicles and beaten. As fleeing Serbian civilians poured into Bosnia, a Red Cross representative in Banja Luka said, "I've never seen anything like it. People are arriving at a terrrifying rate." Bosnian Muslim troops crossed the border and cut off Serbian escape routes. Trapped refugees were massacred as they were pounded by Croatian and Muslim artillery. Nearly 1,700 refugees simply vanished. While Croatian and Muslim troops burned Serbian villages, President Clinton expressed his understanding for the invasion, and Christopher said events "could work to our advantage." (3)
The Croatian rampage through the region left a trail of devastation. Croatian special police units, operating under the Ministry of Internal Affairs, systematically looted abandoned Serbian villages. Everything of value - cars, stereos, televisions, furniture, farm animals - was plundered, and homes set afire. (4) A confidential European Union report stated that 73 percent of Serbian homes were destroyed. (5) Troops of the Croatian army also took part, and pro-**** graffiti could be seen on the walls of several burnt-out Serb buildings.(6)
Massacres continued for several weeks after the fall of Krajina, and UN patrols discovered numerous fresh unmarked graves and bodies of murdered civilians. (7) The European Union report states, "Evidence of atrocities, an average of six corpses per day, continues to emerge. The corpses, some fresh, some decomposed, are mainly of old men. Many have been shot in the back of the head or had throats slit, others have been mutilated... Serb lands continue to be torched and looted." (8)
Following a visit in the region a member of the Zagreb Helsinki Committee reported, "Virtually all Serb villages had been destroyed.... In a village near Knin, eleven bodies were found, some of them were massacred in such a way that it was not easy to see whether the body was male or female." (9)
UN spokesman Chris Gunness noted that UN personnel continued to discover bodies, many of whom had been decapitated. (10) British journalist Robert Fisk reported the murder of elderly Serbs, many of whom were burned alive in their homes. He adds, "At Golubic, UN officers have found the decomposing remains of five people... the head of one of the victims was found 150 feet from his body. Another UN team, meanwhile is investigating the killing of a man and a woman in the same area after villagers described how the man's ears and nose had been mutitated." (11)
After the fall of Krajina, Croatian chief of staff General Zvonimir Cervenko characterized Serbs as "medieval shepherds, troglodytes, destroyers of anything the culture of man has created." During a triumphalist train journey through Croatia and Krajina, Tudjman spoke at each railway station. To great applause, he announced, "There can be no return to the past, to the times when [Serbs] were spreading cancer in the heart of Croatia, a cancer that was destroying the Croatian national being." He then went on to speak of the "ignominious disappearance" of the Serbs from Krajina "so it is as if they have never lived here... They didn't even have time to take with them their filthy money or their filthy underwear!" American ambassador Peter Gaibraith dismissed claims that Croatia had engaged in "ethnie cleansing," since he defined this term as something Serbs do. (12)
U.S. representatives blocked Russian attempts to pass a UN Security Council resolution condemning the invasion. According to Croatian Foreign Minister Mate Granic, American officials gave advice on the conduct of the operation, and European and military experts and humanitarian aid workers reported shipments of U.S weapons to Croatia over the two months preceding the invasion. A French mercenary also witnessed the arrival of American and German weapons at a Croatian port, adding, "The best of the Croats' armaments were German- and Amencan-made." The U.S. "directly or indirectly," says French intelligence analyst Pierre Hassner, "rearmed the Croats." Analysts at Jane's Information Group say that Croatian troops were seen wearing American uniforms and carrying U S. communications equipment. (13)
The invasion of Krajina was preceded by a thorough CIA and DIA analysis of the region. (14) According to Balkan specialist Ivo Banac, this "tactical and intelligence support" was furnished to the Croatian Army at the beginning of its offensive. (15)
In November 1994, the United States and Croatia signed a military agreement. Immediately afterward, U.S. intelligence agents set up an operations center on the Adriatic island of Brac, from which reconnaissance aircraft were launched. Two months earlier, the Pentagon contracted Military Professional Resources, Inc (MPRI) to train the Croatian military.(16) According to a Croatian officer, MPRI advisors "lecture us on tactics and big war operations on the level of brigades, which is why we needed them for Operation Storm when we took the Krajina." Croatian sources claim that U.S. satellite intelligence was furnished to the Croatian military. (17) Following the invasion of Krajina, the U.S. rewarded Croatia with an agreement "broadening existing cooperation" between MPRI and the Croatian mititary. (18) U.S. advisors assisted in the reorganization of the Croatian Army. Referring to this reorganization in an interview with the newspaper Vecernji List, Croatian General Tihomir Blaskic said, "We are building the foundations of our organization on the traditions of the Croatian home guard" - pro-**** troops in World War II. (19)
It is worth examining the nature of what one UN official terms "America's newest ally." During World War II, Croatia was a **** puppet state in which the Croatian fascist Ustashe murdered as many as one million Serbs, Jews, and Roman (Gypsies). Disturbing signs emerged with the election of Franjo Tudjman to the Croatian presidency in 1990 Tudjman said, "I am glad my wife is neither Serb nor Jew," and wrote that accounts of the Holocaust were "exaggerated" and "one-sided." (20)
Much of Tudjman's financial backing was provided by Ustasha emigres and several Ustasha war criminals were invited to attend the first convention of Tudjman's political party, the Croatian Democratie Union. (21)
Tudjman presented a medal to a former Ustasha cormmander living in Argentina, Ivo Rojnica. After Rojnica was quoted as saying, "Everything I did in 1941 I would do again," international pressure prevented Tudjman from appointing him to the post of ambassador to Argentina. When former Ustasha official Vinko Nikolic returned to Croatia, Tudjman appointed him to a seat in parliament. Upon former Ustasha officer Mate Sarlija's return to Croatia, he was personally welcomed at the airport by Defense Minister Gojko Susak, and subsequently given the post of general in the Croatian Army. (22) On November 4, 1996, thirteen former Ustasha officers were presented with medals and ranks in the Croatian Army. (23)
Croatia adopted a new currency in 1994, the kuna, the same name as that used by the Ustasha state, and the new Croatian flag is a near-duplicate of the Ustasha flag. Streets and buildings have been renamed for Ustasha official Mile Budak, who signed the regime's auti-Semitic laws, and more than three thousand anti-fascist monuments have been demolished. In an open letter, the Croatian Jewish community protested the rehabilitation of the Ustasha state. In April 1994, the Croatian government demanded the removal of all "non-white" UN troops from its territory, claimiug that "only first-world troops" understood Croatia's "problems." (24)
On Croatian television in April 1996, Tudjman called for the return of the remains of Ante Pavelic, the leader of the Croatian pro-**** puppet state "After all, both reconciliation and recognition should be granted to those who deserve it," Tudjman said, adding, "We should recognize that Pavelic's ideas about the Croatian state were positive," but that Pavelic's only mistake was the murder of a few of his colleagues and nationalist allies. (25) Three months later, Tudjman said of the Serbs driven from Croatia "The fact that 90 percent of them left is their own problem... Naturally we are not going to allow them all to return." During the same speech, Tudjman referred to the pro-**** state as "a positive thing." (26)
During its violent secession from Yugoslavia in 1991, Croatia expelled more than three hundred thousand Serbs, and Serbs were eliminated from ten towns and 183 viilages. (27) In 1993, Helsinki Watch reported: "Since 1991 the Croatian authorities have blown up or razed ten thousand houses mostly of Serbs, but also houses of Croats. In some cases, they dynarnited homes with the families inside." Thousands of Serbs have been evicted from their homes. Croatian human-rights activist Ivan Zvonimir Cicak says beatings, plundering, and arrests were the usual eviction methods. (28)
Tomislav Mercep, until recently the advisor to the Interior minister and a member of Parliament, is a death-squad leader. Mercep's death squad murdered 2,500 Serbs in western Slavonia in 1991 and 1992, actions Mercep defends as "heroic deeds." (29) Death squad officer Miro Bajramovic's spectacular confession revealed details: "Nights were worst for [our prisoners]... burning prisoners with a flame, pouring vinegar over their wounds mostly on genitalia and on the eyes. Then there is that little inducton, field phone, you plug a Serb onto that... The most painfull is to stick little pins under the nails and to connect to the three phase current; nothing remains of a man but ashes... After all, we knew they would all be killed, so it did not matter if we hurt turn more today or tomorrow."
"Mercep knew everything," Bajramovic claimed. "He told us several times: 'Tonight you have to clean all these poos.' By this he meant all the prisoners should be executed." (30)
Sadly, the Clinton administration's embrace of Croatia follows a history of support for fascists when it suits American geopolitical interests: Chile's Augusto Pinochet, Indonesia's Suharto, Paraguay's Aifredo Stroessner, and a host of others. The consequences of this policy for the people affected have been devastating.
The previous month, Secretary of State Warren Christopher and German Foreign Minister Klaus Kinkel met with Croatian diplomat Miomir Zuzul in London. During this meeting, Christopher gave his approval for Croatian military action against Serbs in Bosnia and Krajina. Two days later, the U.S. ambassador to Croatia, Peter Galbright, also approved Croatia's invasion plan. Stipe Mesic, a prominent Croatian politician, stated that Croatian President Franjo Tudjman "received the go-ahead from the United States. Tudjman can do only what the Amecans allow him to do. Krajina is the reward for having accepted, under Washington's pressure, the federation between Croats and Muslims in Bosnia." Croatian assembly deputy Mate Mestrovic also claimed that the "United States gave us the green light to do whetever had to be done." (1)
As Croatian troops launched their assault on August 4, U.S. NATO aircraft destroyed Serbian radar and anti-aircraft defenses. American EA-6B electronic warfare aircraft patrolled the air in support of the invasion. Krajina foreign affairs advisor Slobodan Jarcevic stated that NATO "completely led and coordinated the entire Croat offensive by first destroying radar and anti-aircraft batteries. What NATO did most for the Croatian Army was to jam communications between [Serb] military commands...." (2)
Following the elimination of Serbian anti-aircraft defenses, Croatian planes carried out extensive attacks on Serbian towns and positions. The roads were clogged with refugees, and Croatian aircraft bombed and strafed refugee columns. Serbian refugees passing through the town of Sisak were met by a mob of Croatian extremists, who hurled rocks and concrete at them. A UN spokesman said, "The windows of almost every vehicle were smashed and almost every person was bleeding from being hit by some object." Serbian refugees were pulled from their vehicles and beaten. As fleeing Serbian civilians poured into Bosnia, a Red Cross representative in Banja Luka said, "I've never seen anything like it. People are arriving at a terrrifying rate." Bosnian Muslim troops crossed the border and cut off Serbian escape routes. Trapped refugees were massacred as they were pounded by Croatian and Muslim artillery. Nearly 1,700 refugees simply vanished. While Croatian and Muslim troops burned Serbian villages, President Clinton expressed his understanding for the invasion, and Christopher said events "could work to our advantage." (3)
The Croatian rampage through the region left a trail of devastation. Croatian special police units, operating under the Ministry of Internal Affairs, systematically looted abandoned Serbian villages. Everything of value - cars, stereos, televisions, furniture, farm animals - was plundered, and homes set afire. (4) A confidential European Union report stated that 73 percent of Serbian homes were destroyed. (5) Troops of the Croatian army also took part, and pro-**** graffiti could be seen on the walls of several burnt-out Serb buildings.(6)
Massacres continued for several weeks after the fall of Krajina, and UN patrols discovered numerous fresh unmarked graves and bodies of murdered civilians. (7) The European Union report states, "Evidence of atrocities, an average of six corpses per day, continues to emerge. The corpses, some fresh, some decomposed, are mainly of old men. Many have been shot in the back of the head or had throats slit, others have been mutilated... Serb lands continue to be torched and looted." (8)
Following a visit in the region a member of the Zagreb Helsinki Committee reported, "Virtually all Serb villages had been destroyed.... In a village near Knin, eleven bodies were found, some of them were massacred in such a way that it was not easy to see whether the body was male or female." (9)
UN spokesman Chris Gunness noted that UN personnel continued to discover bodies, many of whom had been decapitated. (10) British journalist Robert Fisk reported the murder of elderly Serbs, many of whom were burned alive in their homes. He adds, "At Golubic, UN officers have found the decomposing remains of five people... the head of one of the victims was found 150 feet from his body. Another UN team, meanwhile is investigating the killing of a man and a woman in the same area after villagers described how the man's ears and nose had been mutitated." (11)
After the fall of Krajina, Croatian chief of staff General Zvonimir Cervenko characterized Serbs as "medieval shepherds, troglodytes, destroyers of anything the culture of man has created." During a triumphalist train journey through Croatia and Krajina, Tudjman spoke at each railway station. To great applause, he announced, "There can be no return to the past, to the times when [Serbs] were spreading cancer in the heart of Croatia, a cancer that was destroying the Croatian national being." He then went on to speak of the "ignominious disappearance" of the Serbs from Krajina "so it is as if they have never lived here... They didn't even have time to take with them their filthy money or their filthy underwear!" American ambassador Peter Gaibraith dismissed claims that Croatia had engaged in "ethnie cleansing," since he defined this term as something Serbs do. (12)
U.S. representatives blocked Russian attempts to pass a UN Security Council resolution condemning the invasion. According to Croatian Foreign Minister Mate Granic, American officials gave advice on the conduct of the operation, and European and military experts and humanitarian aid workers reported shipments of U.S weapons to Croatia over the two months preceding the invasion. A French mercenary also witnessed the arrival of American and German weapons at a Croatian port, adding, "The best of the Croats' armaments were German- and Amencan-made." The U.S. "directly or indirectly," says French intelligence analyst Pierre Hassner, "rearmed the Croats." Analysts at Jane's Information Group say that Croatian troops were seen wearing American uniforms and carrying U S. communications equipment. (13)
The invasion of Krajina was preceded by a thorough CIA and DIA analysis of the region. (14) According to Balkan specialist Ivo Banac, this "tactical and intelligence support" was furnished to the Croatian Army at the beginning of its offensive. (15)
In November 1994, the United States and Croatia signed a military agreement. Immediately afterward, U.S. intelligence agents set up an operations center on the Adriatic island of Brac, from which reconnaissance aircraft were launched. Two months earlier, the Pentagon contracted Military Professional Resources, Inc (MPRI) to train the Croatian military.(16) According to a Croatian officer, MPRI advisors "lecture us on tactics and big war operations on the level of brigades, which is why we needed them for Operation Storm when we took the Krajina." Croatian sources claim that U.S. satellite intelligence was furnished to the Croatian military. (17) Following the invasion of Krajina, the U.S. rewarded Croatia with an agreement "broadening existing cooperation" between MPRI and the Croatian mititary. (18) U.S. advisors assisted in the reorganization of the Croatian Army. Referring to this reorganization in an interview with the newspaper Vecernji List, Croatian General Tihomir Blaskic said, "We are building the foundations of our organization on the traditions of the Croatian home guard" - pro-**** troops in World War II. (19)
It is worth examining the nature of what one UN official terms "America's newest ally." During World War II, Croatia was a **** puppet state in which the Croatian fascist Ustashe murdered as many as one million Serbs, Jews, and Roman (Gypsies). Disturbing signs emerged with the election of Franjo Tudjman to the Croatian presidency in 1990 Tudjman said, "I am glad my wife is neither Serb nor Jew," and wrote that accounts of the Holocaust were "exaggerated" and "one-sided." (20)
Much of Tudjman's financial backing was provided by Ustasha emigres and several Ustasha war criminals were invited to attend the first convention of Tudjman's political party, the Croatian Democratie Union. (21)
Tudjman presented a medal to a former Ustasha cormmander living in Argentina, Ivo Rojnica. After Rojnica was quoted as saying, "Everything I did in 1941 I would do again," international pressure prevented Tudjman from appointing him to the post of ambassador to Argentina. When former Ustasha official Vinko Nikolic returned to Croatia, Tudjman appointed him to a seat in parliament. Upon former Ustasha officer Mate Sarlija's return to Croatia, he was personally welcomed at the airport by Defense Minister Gojko Susak, and subsequently given the post of general in the Croatian Army. (22) On November 4, 1996, thirteen former Ustasha officers were presented with medals and ranks in the Croatian Army. (23)
Croatia adopted a new currency in 1994, the kuna, the same name as that used by the Ustasha state, and the new Croatian flag is a near-duplicate of the Ustasha flag. Streets and buildings have been renamed for Ustasha official Mile Budak, who signed the regime's auti-Semitic laws, and more than three thousand anti-fascist monuments have been demolished. In an open letter, the Croatian Jewish community protested the rehabilitation of the Ustasha state. In April 1994, the Croatian government demanded the removal of all "non-white" UN troops from its territory, claimiug that "only first-world troops" understood Croatia's "problems." (24)
On Croatian television in April 1996, Tudjman called for the return of the remains of Ante Pavelic, the leader of the Croatian pro-**** puppet state "After all, both reconciliation and recognition should be granted to those who deserve it," Tudjman said, adding, "We should recognize that Pavelic's ideas about the Croatian state were positive," but that Pavelic's only mistake was the murder of a few of his colleagues and nationalist allies. (25) Three months later, Tudjman said of the Serbs driven from Croatia "The fact that 90 percent of them left is their own problem... Naturally we are not going to allow them all to return." During the same speech, Tudjman referred to the pro-**** state as "a positive thing." (26)
During its violent secession from Yugoslavia in 1991, Croatia expelled more than three hundred thousand Serbs, and Serbs were eliminated from ten towns and 183 viilages. (27) In 1993, Helsinki Watch reported: "Since 1991 the Croatian authorities have blown up or razed ten thousand houses mostly of Serbs, but also houses of Croats. In some cases, they dynarnited homes with the families inside." Thousands of Serbs have been evicted from their homes. Croatian human-rights activist Ivan Zvonimir Cicak says beatings, plundering, and arrests were the usual eviction methods. (28)
Tomislav Mercep, until recently the advisor to the Interior minister and a member of Parliament, is a death-squad leader. Mercep's death squad murdered 2,500 Serbs in western Slavonia in 1991 and 1992, actions Mercep defends as "heroic deeds." (29) Death squad officer Miro Bajramovic's spectacular confession revealed details: "Nights were worst for [our prisoners]... burning prisoners with a flame, pouring vinegar over their wounds mostly on genitalia and on the eyes. Then there is that little inducton, field phone, you plug a Serb onto that... The most painfull is to stick little pins under the nails and to connect to the three phase current; nothing remains of a man but ashes... After all, we knew they would all be killed, so it did not matter if we hurt turn more today or tomorrow."
"Mercep knew everything," Bajramovic claimed. "He told us several times: 'Tonight you have to clean all these poos.' By this he meant all the prisoners should be executed." (30)
Sadly, the Clinton administration's embrace of Croatia follows a history of support for fascists when it suits American geopolitical interests: Chile's Augusto Pinochet, Indonesia's Suharto, Paraguay's Aifredo Stroessner, and a host of others. The consequences of this policy for the people affected have been devastating.
5/19/04, 11:13 AM
#31
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Originally posted by 428CJ@May. 19th, 2004, 2:47 AM
Oh and BTW, it is not our responsibility to help you guys out. We are hated on princible, and then when we come to help you cut us some slack, but if we don't help enough we are hated even more.
Oh and BTW, it is not our responsibility to help you guys out. We are hated on princible, and then when we come to help you cut us some slack, but if we don't help enough we are hated even more.
5/19/04, 11:15 AM
#32
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Originally posted by GhostTX@May. 19th, 2004, 10:20 AM
You're just blaming the USA because we had the biggest hammer. When are you going to point the finger at the UN for getting involved when it shouldn't have? Oh ya...you won't 'cause everything is the USA's fault.
You're just blaming the USA because we had the biggest hammer. When are you going to point the finger at the UN for getting involved when it shouldn't have? Oh ya...you won't 'cause everything is the USA's fault.
Then you'll understand.
5/19/04, 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by Dr Iven@May. 19th, 2004, 1:52 AM
America is the greatest nation on earth, and is wonderful just how it is.
America is the greatest nation on earth, and is wonderful just how it is.
5/19/04, 12:09 PM
#34
Shelby GT500 Member
Originally posted by Stella Rossa / Red Star@May. 19th, 2004, 12:18 PM
Read that long quote man.
Then you'll understand.
Read that long quote man.
Then you'll understand.
And just curious, if things are so bad over there...why are you here in the USA instead of in Serbia helping out your fellow countrymen? Too busy enjoying the freedoms here that you don't have over there?
The USA contributes more in medical, food and financial assistance than any other country in the world. I'd guess the world would be more happy if we withdrew all the humanitarian aid and kept it home, too.
5/19/04, 12:17 PM
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Originally posted by GhostTX+May. 19th, 2004, 12:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (GhostTX @ May. 19th, 2004, 12:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Stella Rossa / Red Star@May. 19th, 2004, 12:18 PM
Read that long quote man.
Then you'll understand.
Read that long quote man.
Then you'll understand.
And just curious, if things are so bad over there...why are you here in the USA instead of in Serbia helping out your fellow countrymen? Too busy enjoying the freedoms here that you don't have over there?
The USA contributes more in medical, food and financial assistance than any other country in the world. I'd guess the world would be more happy if we withdrew all the humanitarian aid and kept it home, too. [/b][/quote]
I came here because war is over there, there is nothing to fight for.
And trust me man, I had a lot more freedom there than I have here. You call this freedom? Like in this topic, I disagreed with you guys, and now everybody is against me. What happend to freedom of speech?
By the way, I meant this long quote. Everything is explain really good, USA, United Nations, war in former Yugoslavia ... Read it all.
In early August 1995, the Croatian invasion of Serbian Krajina precipitated the worst refugee crisis of the Yugoslav civil war. Within days, more than two hundred thousand Serbs, virtually the entire population of Krajina, fled their homes, and 14,000 Serbian civilians lost them lives. According to a UN official "Almost the only people remaining were the dead and the dying." The Clinton administration's support for the invasion was an important factor in creating this nightmare.
The previous month, Secretary of State Warren Christopher and German Foreign Minister Klaus Kinkel met with Croatian diplomat Miomir Zuzul in London. During this meeting, Christopher gave his approval for Croatian military action against Serbs in Bosnia and Krajina. Two days later, the U.S. ambassador to Croatia, Peter Galbright, also approved Croatia's invasion plan. Stipe Mesic, a prominent Croatian politician, stated that Croatian President Franjo Tudjman "received the go-ahead from the United States. Tudjman can do only what the Amecans allow him to do. Krajina is the reward for having accepted, under Washington's pressure, the federation between Croats and Muslims in Bosnia." Croatian assembly deputy Mate Mestrovic also claimed that the "United States gave us the green light to do whetever had to be done." (1)
As Croatian troops launched their assault on August 4, U.S. NATO aircraft destroyed Serbian radar and anti-aircraft defenses. American EA-6B electronic warfare aircraft patrolled the air in support of the invasion. Krajina foreign affairs advisor Slobodan Jarcevic stated that NATO "completely led and coordinated the entire Croat offensive by first destroying radar and anti-aircraft batteries. What NATO did most for the Croatian Army was to jam communications between [Serb] military commands...." (2)
Following the elimination of Serbian anti-aircraft defenses, Croatian planes carried out extensive attacks on Serbian towns and positions. The roads were clogged with refugees, and Croatian aircraft bombed and strafed refugee columns. Serbian refugees passing through the town of Sisak were met by a mob of Croatian extremists, who hurled rocks and concrete at them. A UN spokesman said, "The windows of almost every vehicle were smashed and almost every person was bleeding from being hit by some object." Serbian refugees were pulled from their vehicles and beaten. As fleeing Serbian civilians poured into Bosnia, a Red Cross representative in Banja Luka said, "I've never seen anything like it. People are arriving at a terrrifying rate." Bosnian Muslim troops crossed the border and cut off Serbian escape routes. Trapped refugees were massacred as they were pounded by Croatian and Muslim artillery. Nearly 1,700 refugees simply vanished. While Croatian and Muslim troops burned Serbian villages, President Clinton expressed his understanding for the invasion, and Christopher said events "could work to our advantage." (3)
The Croatian rampage through the region left a trail of devastation. Croatian special police units, operating under the Ministry of Internal Affairs, systematically looted abandoned Serbian villages. Everything of value - cars, stereos, televisions, furniture, farm animals - was plundered, and homes set afire. (4) A confidential European Union report stated that 73 percent of Serbian homes were destroyed. (5) Troops of the Croatian army also took part, and pro-**** graffiti could be seen on the walls of several burnt-out Serb buildings.(6)
Massacres continued for several weeks after the fall of Krajina, and UN patrols discovered numerous fresh unmarked graves and bodies of murdered civilians. (7) The European Union report states, "Evidence of atrocities, an average of six corpses per day, continues to emerge. The corpses, some fresh, some decomposed, are mainly of old men. Many have been shot in the back of the head or had throats slit, others have been mutilated... Serb lands continue to be torched and looted." (8)
Following a visit in the region a member of the Zagreb Helsinki Committee reported, "Virtually all Serb villages had been destroyed.... In a village near Knin, eleven bodies were found, some of them were massacred in such a way that it was not easy to see whether the body was male or female." (9)
UN spokesman Chris Gunness noted that UN personnel continued to discover bodies, many of whom had been decapitated. (10) British journalist Robert Fisk reported the murder of elderly Serbs, many of whom were burned alive in their homes. He adds, "At Golubic, UN officers have found the decomposing remains of five people... the head of one of the victims was found 150 feet from his body. Another UN team, meanwhile is investigating the killing of a man and a woman in the same area after villagers described how the man's ears and nose had been mutitated." (11)
After the fall of Krajina, Croatian chief of staff General Zvonimir Cervenko characterized Serbs as "medieval shepherds, troglodytes, destroyers of anything the culture of man has created." During a triumphalist train journey through Croatia and Krajina, Tudjman spoke at each railway station. To great applause, he announced, "There can be no return to the past, to the times when [Serbs] were spreading cancer in the heart of Croatia, a cancer that was destroying the Croatian national being." He then went on to speak of the "ignominious disappearance" of the Serbs from Krajina "so it is as if they have never lived here... They didn't even have time to take with them their filthy money or their filthy underwear!" American ambassador Peter Gaibraith dismissed claims that Croatia had engaged in "ethnie cleansing," since he defined this term as something Serbs do. (12)
U.S. representatives blocked Russian attempts to pass a UN Security Council resolution condemning the invasion. According to Croatian Foreign Minister Mate Granic, American officials gave advice on the conduct of the operation, and European and military experts and humanitarian aid workers reported shipments of U.S weapons to Croatia over the two months preceding the invasion. A French mercenary also witnessed the arrival of American and German weapons at a Croatian port, adding, "The best of the Croats' armaments were German- and Amencan-made." The U.S. "directly or indirectly," says French intelligence analyst Pierre Hassner, "rearmed the Croats." Analysts at Jane's Information Group say that Croatian troops were seen wearing American uniforms and carrying U S. communications equipment. (13)
The invasion of Krajina was preceded by a thorough CIA and DIA analysis of the region. (14) According to Balkan specialist Ivo Banac, this "tactical and intelligence support" was furnished to the Croatian Army at the beginning of its offensive. (15)
In November 1994, the United States and Croatia signed a military agreement. Immediately afterward, U.S. intelligence agents set up an operations center on the Adriatic island of Brac, from which reconnaissance aircraft were launched. Two months earlier, the Pentagon contracted Military Professional Resources, Inc (MPRI) to train the Croatian military.(16) According to a Croatian officer, MPRI advisors "lecture us on tactics and big war operations on the level of brigades, which is why we needed them for Operation Storm when we took the Krajina." Croatian sources claim that U.S. satellite intelligence was furnished to the Croatian military. (17) Following the invasion of Krajina, the U.S. rewarded Croatia with an agreement "broadening existing cooperation" between MPRI and the Croatian mititary. (18) U.S. advisors assisted in the reorganization of the Croatian Army. Referring to this reorganization in an interview with the newspaper Vecernji List, Croatian General Tihomir Blaskic said, "We are building the foundations of our organization on the traditions of the Croatian home guard" - pro-**** troops in World War II. (19)
It is worth examining the nature of what one UN official terms "America's newest ally." During World War II, Croatia was a **** puppet state in which the Croatian fascist Ustashe murdered as many as one million Serbs, Jews, and Roman (Gypsies). Disturbing signs emerged with the election of Franjo Tudjman to the Croatian presidency in 1990 Tudjman said, "I am glad my wife is neither Serb nor Jew," and wrote that accounts of the Holocaust were "exaggerated" and "one-sided." (20)
Much of Tudjman's financial backing was provided by Ustasha emigres and several Ustasha war criminals were invited to attend the first convention of Tudjman's political party, the Croatian Democratie Union. (21)
Tudjman presented a medal to a former Ustasha cormmander living in Argentina, Ivo Rojnica. After Rojnica was quoted as saying, "Everything I did in 1941 I would do again," international pressure prevented Tudjman from appointing him to the post of ambassador to Argentina. When former Ustasha official Vinko Nikolic returned to Croatia, Tudjman appointed him to a seat in parliament. Upon former Ustasha officer Mate Sarlija's return to Croatia, he was personally welcomed at the airport by Defense Minister Gojko Susak, and subsequently given the post of general in the Croatian Army. (22) On November 4, 1996, thirteen former Ustasha officers were presented with medals and ranks in the Croatian Army. (23)
Croatia adopted a new currency in 1994, the kuna, the same name as that used by the Ustasha state, and the new Croatian flag is a near-duplicate of the Ustasha flag. Streets and buildings have been renamed for Ustasha official Mile Budak, who signed the regime's auti-Semitic laws, and more than three thousand anti-fascist monuments have been demolished. In an open letter, the Croatian Jewish community protested the rehabilitation of the Ustasha state. In April 1994, the Croatian government demanded the removal of all "non-white" UN troops from its territory, claimiug that "only first-world troops" understood Croatia's "problems." (24)
On Croatian television in April 1996, Tudjman called for the return of the remains of Ante Pavelic, the leader of the Croatian pro-**** puppet state "After all, both reconciliation and recognition should be granted to those who deserve it," Tudjman said, adding, "We should recognize that Pavelic's ideas about the Croatian state were positive," but that Pavelic's only mistake was the murder of a few of his colleagues and nationalist allies. (25) Three months later, Tudjman said of the Serbs driven from Croatia "The fact that 90 percent of them left is their own problem... Naturally we are not going to allow them all to return." During the same speech, Tudjman referred to the pro-**** state as "a positive thing." (26)
During its violent secession from Yugoslavia in 1991, Croatia expelled more than three hundred thousand Serbs, and Serbs were eliminated from ten towns and 183 viilages. (27) In 1993, Helsinki Watch reported: "Since 1991 the Croatian authorities have blown up or razed ten thousand houses mostly of Serbs, but also houses of Croats. In some cases, they dynarnited homes with the families inside." Thousands of Serbs have been evicted from their homes. Croatian human-rights activist Ivan Zvonimir Cicak says beatings, plundering, and arrests were the usual eviction methods. (28)
Tomislav Mercep, until recently the advisor to the Interior minister and a member of Parliament, is a death-squad leader. Mercep's death squad murdered 2,500 Serbs in western Slavonia in 1991 and 1992, actions Mercep defends as "heroic deeds." (29) Death squad officer Miro Bajramovic's spectacular confession revealed details: "Nights were worst for [our prisoners]... burning prisoners with a flame, pouring vinegar over their wounds mostly on genitalia and on the eyes. Then there is that little inducton, field phone, you plug a Serb onto that... The most painfull is to stick little pins under the nails and to connect to the three phase current; nothing remains of a man but ashes... After all, we knew they would all be killed, so it did not matter if we hurt turn more today or tomorrow."
"Mercep knew everything," Bajramovic claimed. "He told us several times: 'Tonight you have to clean all these poos.' By this he meant all the prisoners should be executed." (30)
Sadly, the Clinton administration's embrace of Croatia follows a history of support for fascists when it suits American geopolitical interests: Chile's Augusto Pinochet, Indonesia's Suharto, Paraguay's Aifredo Stroessner, and a host of others. The consequences of this policy for the people affected have been devastating.
The previous month, Secretary of State Warren Christopher and German Foreign Minister Klaus Kinkel met with Croatian diplomat Miomir Zuzul in London. During this meeting, Christopher gave his approval for Croatian military action against Serbs in Bosnia and Krajina. Two days later, the U.S. ambassador to Croatia, Peter Galbright, also approved Croatia's invasion plan. Stipe Mesic, a prominent Croatian politician, stated that Croatian President Franjo Tudjman "received the go-ahead from the United States. Tudjman can do only what the Amecans allow him to do. Krajina is the reward for having accepted, under Washington's pressure, the federation between Croats and Muslims in Bosnia." Croatian assembly deputy Mate Mestrovic also claimed that the "United States gave us the green light to do whetever had to be done." (1)
As Croatian troops launched their assault on August 4, U.S. NATO aircraft destroyed Serbian radar and anti-aircraft defenses. American EA-6B electronic warfare aircraft patrolled the air in support of the invasion. Krajina foreign affairs advisor Slobodan Jarcevic stated that NATO "completely led and coordinated the entire Croat offensive by first destroying radar and anti-aircraft batteries. What NATO did most for the Croatian Army was to jam communications between [Serb] military commands...." (2)
Following the elimination of Serbian anti-aircraft defenses, Croatian planes carried out extensive attacks on Serbian towns and positions. The roads were clogged with refugees, and Croatian aircraft bombed and strafed refugee columns. Serbian refugees passing through the town of Sisak were met by a mob of Croatian extremists, who hurled rocks and concrete at them. A UN spokesman said, "The windows of almost every vehicle were smashed and almost every person was bleeding from being hit by some object." Serbian refugees were pulled from their vehicles and beaten. As fleeing Serbian civilians poured into Bosnia, a Red Cross representative in Banja Luka said, "I've never seen anything like it. People are arriving at a terrrifying rate." Bosnian Muslim troops crossed the border and cut off Serbian escape routes. Trapped refugees were massacred as they were pounded by Croatian and Muslim artillery. Nearly 1,700 refugees simply vanished. While Croatian and Muslim troops burned Serbian villages, President Clinton expressed his understanding for the invasion, and Christopher said events "could work to our advantage." (3)
The Croatian rampage through the region left a trail of devastation. Croatian special police units, operating under the Ministry of Internal Affairs, systematically looted abandoned Serbian villages. Everything of value - cars, stereos, televisions, furniture, farm animals - was plundered, and homes set afire. (4) A confidential European Union report stated that 73 percent of Serbian homes were destroyed. (5) Troops of the Croatian army also took part, and pro-**** graffiti could be seen on the walls of several burnt-out Serb buildings.(6)
Massacres continued for several weeks after the fall of Krajina, and UN patrols discovered numerous fresh unmarked graves and bodies of murdered civilians. (7) The European Union report states, "Evidence of atrocities, an average of six corpses per day, continues to emerge. The corpses, some fresh, some decomposed, are mainly of old men. Many have been shot in the back of the head or had throats slit, others have been mutilated... Serb lands continue to be torched and looted." (8)
Following a visit in the region a member of the Zagreb Helsinki Committee reported, "Virtually all Serb villages had been destroyed.... In a village near Knin, eleven bodies were found, some of them were massacred in such a way that it was not easy to see whether the body was male or female." (9)
UN spokesman Chris Gunness noted that UN personnel continued to discover bodies, many of whom had been decapitated. (10) British journalist Robert Fisk reported the murder of elderly Serbs, many of whom were burned alive in their homes. He adds, "At Golubic, UN officers have found the decomposing remains of five people... the head of one of the victims was found 150 feet from his body. Another UN team, meanwhile is investigating the killing of a man and a woman in the same area after villagers described how the man's ears and nose had been mutitated." (11)
After the fall of Krajina, Croatian chief of staff General Zvonimir Cervenko characterized Serbs as "medieval shepherds, troglodytes, destroyers of anything the culture of man has created." During a triumphalist train journey through Croatia and Krajina, Tudjman spoke at each railway station. To great applause, he announced, "There can be no return to the past, to the times when [Serbs] were spreading cancer in the heart of Croatia, a cancer that was destroying the Croatian national being." He then went on to speak of the "ignominious disappearance" of the Serbs from Krajina "so it is as if they have never lived here... They didn't even have time to take with them their filthy money or their filthy underwear!" American ambassador Peter Gaibraith dismissed claims that Croatia had engaged in "ethnie cleansing," since he defined this term as something Serbs do. (12)
U.S. representatives blocked Russian attempts to pass a UN Security Council resolution condemning the invasion. According to Croatian Foreign Minister Mate Granic, American officials gave advice on the conduct of the operation, and European and military experts and humanitarian aid workers reported shipments of U.S weapons to Croatia over the two months preceding the invasion. A French mercenary also witnessed the arrival of American and German weapons at a Croatian port, adding, "The best of the Croats' armaments were German- and Amencan-made." The U.S. "directly or indirectly," says French intelligence analyst Pierre Hassner, "rearmed the Croats." Analysts at Jane's Information Group say that Croatian troops were seen wearing American uniforms and carrying U S. communications equipment. (13)
The invasion of Krajina was preceded by a thorough CIA and DIA analysis of the region. (14) According to Balkan specialist Ivo Banac, this "tactical and intelligence support" was furnished to the Croatian Army at the beginning of its offensive. (15)
In November 1994, the United States and Croatia signed a military agreement. Immediately afterward, U.S. intelligence agents set up an operations center on the Adriatic island of Brac, from which reconnaissance aircraft were launched. Two months earlier, the Pentagon contracted Military Professional Resources, Inc (MPRI) to train the Croatian military.(16) According to a Croatian officer, MPRI advisors "lecture us on tactics and big war operations on the level of brigades, which is why we needed them for Operation Storm when we took the Krajina." Croatian sources claim that U.S. satellite intelligence was furnished to the Croatian military. (17) Following the invasion of Krajina, the U.S. rewarded Croatia with an agreement "broadening existing cooperation" between MPRI and the Croatian mititary. (18) U.S. advisors assisted in the reorganization of the Croatian Army. Referring to this reorganization in an interview with the newspaper Vecernji List, Croatian General Tihomir Blaskic said, "We are building the foundations of our organization on the traditions of the Croatian home guard" - pro-**** troops in World War II. (19)
It is worth examining the nature of what one UN official terms "America's newest ally." During World War II, Croatia was a **** puppet state in which the Croatian fascist Ustashe murdered as many as one million Serbs, Jews, and Roman (Gypsies). Disturbing signs emerged with the election of Franjo Tudjman to the Croatian presidency in 1990 Tudjman said, "I am glad my wife is neither Serb nor Jew," and wrote that accounts of the Holocaust were "exaggerated" and "one-sided." (20)
Much of Tudjman's financial backing was provided by Ustasha emigres and several Ustasha war criminals were invited to attend the first convention of Tudjman's political party, the Croatian Democratie Union. (21)
Tudjman presented a medal to a former Ustasha cormmander living in Argentina, Ivo Rojnica. After Rojnica was quoted as saying, "Everything I did in 1941 I would do again," international pressure prevented Tudjman from appointing him to the post of ambassador to Argentina. When former Ustasha official Vinko Nikolic returned to Croatia, Tudjman appointed him to a seat in parliament. Upon former Ustasha officer Mate Sarlija's return to Croatia, he was personally welcomed at the airport by Defense Minister Gojko Susak, and subsequently given the post of general in the Croatian Army. (22) On November 4, 1996, thirteen former Ustasha officers were presented with medals and ranks in the Croatian Army. (23)
Croatia adopted a new currency in 1994, the kuna, the same name as that used by the Ustasha state, and the new Croatian flag is a near-duplicate of the Ustasha flag. Streets and buildings have been renamed for Ustasha official Mile Budak, who signed the regime's auti-Semitic laws, and more than three thousand anti-fascist monuments have been demolished. In an open letter, the Croatian Jewish community protested the rehabilitation of the Ustasha state. In April 1994, the Croatian government demanded the removal of all "non-white" UN troops from its territory, claimiug that "only first-world troops" understood Croatia's "problems." (24)
On Croatian television in April 1996, Tudjman called for the return of the remains of Ante Pavelic, the leader of the Croatian pro-**** puppet state "After all, both reconciliation and recognition should be granted to those who deserve it," Tudjman said, adding, "We should recognize that Pavelic's ideas about the Croatian state were positive," but that Pavelic's only mistake was the murder of a few of his colleagues and nationalist allies. (25) Three months later, Tudjman said of the Serbs driven from Croatia "The fact that 90 percent of them left is their own problem... Naturally we are not going to allow them all to return." During the same speech, Tudjman referred to the pro-**** state as "a positive thing." (26)
During its violent secession from Yugoslavia in 1991, Croatia expelled more than three hundred thousand Serbs, and Serbs were eliminated from ten towns and 183 viilages. (27) In 1993, Helsinki Watch reported: "Since 1991 the Croatian authorities have blown up or razed ten thousand houses mostly of Serbs, but also houses of Croats. In some cases, they dynarnited homes with the families inside." Thousands of Serbs have been evicted from their homes. Croatian human-rights activist Ivan Zvonimir Cicak says beatings, plundering, and arrests were the usual eviction methods. (28)
Tomislav Mercep, until recently the advisor to the Interior minister and a member of Parliament, is a death-squad leader. Mercep's death squad murdered 2,500 Serbs in western Slavonia in 1991 and 1992, actions Mercep defends as "heroic deeds." (29) Death squad officer Miro Bajramovic's spectacular confession revealed details: "Nights were worst for [our prisoners]... burning prisoners with a flame, pouring vinegar over their wounds mostly on genitalia and on the eyes. Then there is that little inducton, field phone, you plug a Serb onto that... The most painfull is to stick little pins under the nails and to connect to the three phase current; nothing remains of a man but ashes... After all, we knew they would all be killed, so it did not matter if we hurt turn more today or tomorrow."
"Mercep knew everything," Bajramovic claimed. "He told us several times: 'Tonight you have to clean all these poos.' By this he meant all the prisoners should be executed." (30)
Sadly, the Clinton administration's embrace of Croatia follows a history of support for fascists when it suits American geopolitical interests: Chile's Augusto Pinochet, Indonesia's Suharto, Paraguay's Aifredo Stroessner, and a host of others. The consequences of this policy for the people affected have been devastating.
5/19/04, 01:30 PM
#36
Shelby GT500 Member
Originally posted by Stella Rossa / Red Star+May. 19th, 2004, 1:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Stella Rossa / Red Star @ May. 19th, 2004, 1:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I came here because war is over there, there is nothing to fight for. [/b]
Really? So the only reason to go live in YOUR country is to fight? All the jobs are in the USA, huh?
Originally posted by Stella Rossa / Red Star@
And trust me man, I had a lot more freedom there than I have here.
And trust me man, I had a lot more freedom there than I have here.
<!--QuoteBegin-Stella Rossa / Red Star
You call this freedom? Like in this topic, I disagreed with you guys, and now everybody is against me. What happend to freedom of speech?[/quote]
And you do have freedom of speech. If you did NOT have freedom of speech you COULDN'T speak your piece of mind. I am allowed to disagree with you, THAT is what freedom of speech is about. <_< When are people going to learn that freedom of speech is being able to say anything, even if its something that offends you? *Gasp*...you mean your opinion is different from mine? How horrid!
By the way, I did read your entire copy of text. I guess you missed the part that said Croatian planes carried out extensive attacks on Serbian towns and positions, Croatian aircraft bombed and strafed refugee columns, Croatian rampage through the region left a trail of devastation, Croatian and Muslim troops burned Serbian villages and NATO aircraft destroyed Serbian radar and anti-aircraft defenses. NATO (where the USA would lie) only hit military targets. NATO is comprised of mostly EUROPEAN countries...the USA being one of 26 nations. But there you go...its ALL the USA's fault.
Ya...its pretty crappy that Serbia got pounded and alot of people got killed, but I fail to see how you exclusively blame the USA. Take your misguided anger elsewhere.
5/19/04, 01:42 PM
#37
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Jobs may be better paid here, but they're not easier. Difference is, you will always get paid here, but in my country, a lot of times people woudn't get their pay-check when they're supposed to.
But see man, in richer countries in Europe, such as Germany, Austria, or Switzerland, each year people have month or so of paid vacation, which means that you can take time off from your work, travel somewhere, and still get paid. There are other things, such as after women give birth to the baby, she have almost a year time off from work with paid.
By the way, I guess you forgot to read this part
As Croatian troops launched their assault on August 4, U.S. NATO aircraft destroyed Serbian radar and anti-aircraft defenses. American EA-6B electronic warfare aircraft patrolled the air in support of the invasion. Krajina foreign affairs advisor Slobodan Jarcevic stated that NATO "completely led and coordinated the entire Croat offensive by first destroying radar and anti-aircraft batteries.
But see man, in richer countries in Europe, such as Germany, Austria, or Switzerland, each year people have month or so of paid vacation, which means that you can take time off from your work, travel somewhere, and still get paid. There are other things, such as after women give birth to the baby, she have almost a year time off from work with paid.
By the way, I guess you forgot to read this part
As Croatian troops launched their assault on August 4, U.S. NATO aircraft destroyed Serbian radar and anti-aircraft defenses. American EA-6B electronic warfare aircraft patrolled the air in support of the invasion. Krajina foreign affairs advisor Slobodan Jarcevic stated that NATO "completely led and coordinated the entire Croat offensive by first destroying radar and anti-aircraft batteries.
5/19/04, 02:07 PM
#38
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Umm....I did read that. Please re-read mine. I noted that NATO hit military targets, where the Croatians hit civilian. <_<
Further, Serbian hands aren't the cleanest either.
Source
Kind of the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it? I guess the only difference is Serbia did it on its own, while the Croatians had cover from a non-combat electronic warfare airplane. <_<
By the way, those aren't freedoms (vacations and maternity leave). Those are tax subsidies as part of a socialist enconomy.
By the way, you need a new job. I currently have 4 weeks of paid vacation and 12 paid holidays...and its in the USA.
Further, Serbian hands aren't the cleanest either.
Originally posted by New Zealand Herald
Up to 15,000 Muslim men and boys tried to flee the Serb forces, but many were captured and killed. Many of the men who stayed were separated from women and children and bussed away to be shot. Others were decapitated on the spot.
Up to 15,000 Muslim men and boys tried to flee the Serb forces, but many were captured and killed. Many of the men who stayed were separated from women and children and bussed away to be shot. Others were decapitated on the spot.
Kind of the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it? I guess the only difference is Serbia did it on its own, while the Croatians had cover from a non-combat electronic warfare airplane. <_<
By the way, those aren't freedoms (vacations and maternity leave). Those are tax subsidies as part of a socialist enconomy.
By the way, you need a new job. I currently have 4 weeks of paid vacation and 12 paid holidays...and its in the USA.
5/19/04, 02:18 PM
#39
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Thing is man, NATO destroyed all weapons that Serbs used for defence.
On one side you have Croatian army with weapons attacking, and on other side you have Serbian civilians with no weapons because NATO destroyed them.
I'm not saying that Serbs didn't some bad things, but what Croats did was a 100 worse than what Serbs did. And at the end, Serbs are one to blame. I was a Serb living in Croatia man, and I know what happend in August 1995, even though I was only 11 years old then. I know what NATO did, I know what Croatia did, and I know though what I had to go through just to survive.
It started bombing around 5 a.m. on August 4th. We spent next 7-10 days trying to reach Serbia, just to surivive. My mom, my at that time 4-year old brother and me. My dad had to stay, because older men were not allowed to move. For those 7-10 days, I didn't even know if my dad was alive. We reached Serbia after 7 days, only thing we had was 2 bags of clothes. I know you woudn't understand all this, because you never had to go though that. But then don't tell me that we are bad guys, and that USA and NATO are not responsible for all that. Don't tell me that. I been there and I saw everything. You didn't.
On one side you have Croatian army with weapons attacking, and on other side you have Serbian civilians with no weapons because NATO destroyed them.
I'm not saying that Serbs didn't some bad things, but what Croats did was a 100 worse than what Serbs did. And at the end, Serbs are one to blame. I was a Serb living in Croatia man, and I know what happend in August 1995, even though I was only 11 years old then. I know what NATO did, I know what Croatia did, and I know though what I had to go through just to survive.
It started bombing around 5 a.m. on August 4th. We spent next 7-10 days trying to reach Serbia, just to surivive. My mom, my at that time 4-year old brother and me. My dad had to stay, because older men were not allowed to move. For those 7-10 days, I didn't even know if my dad was alive. We reached Serbia after 7 days, only thing we had was 2 bags of clothes. I know you woudn't understand all this, because you never had to go though that. But then don't tell me that we are bad guys, and that USA and NATO are not responsible for all that. Don't tell me that. I been there and I saw everything. You didn't.
5/19/04, 02:56 PM
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Ok, I have to respond as I have a kinda unique perspective. My last girlfriend was a Muslim Bosnian. She lived in Bosnia until she was 14. Her father is a Bosnian Muslim but her mom was a Serbian Orthodox. When Serbia invaded Bosnia from what she tells me the Serbs began killing anyone that was of mixed blood, or was involved in a mixed marrige. So basically they were going house to house looking for people just like my girlfriend and they were looking for her to Kill her. So her and her father fled. He ended up hiding in her Aunts house (he didn't leave the house for 1.5 years) and she was sent to Italy to go to school. From Italy she went to Germany, from Germany she went to Switzerland. When she was 18 she came to America and went to college. She now has a college degree in Electrical Engineering.
And you know what.... she is still in the US, living in Atlanta; her parents are here, her brother is here (they live in Houston). And you want to know why she is still in the US. Because as per her words "there is no better place in the world to live". Her perpective was all I needed to draw my conclusions about that. I have no personal experience with it, so I cannot begin to judge anyone on what I think should be done with their lives.
And if you are a follower of history is was not until after Bosnia that the United states and NATO got involved in this war. So things were messed up way before we got there. What the US did not want to happen was another Bosnia to happen in Kosovo as well. So that is when the US and NATO got involved in this war.
The United States is the greatest country in the world, partly because we know we are. If people as a whole aspire to be the best then that is where you will eventually end up. My final comment on this is if you don't like it here I am quite sure that France, Germany, or Russia would welcome you with open arms.
The United States rocks. And will for year and years to come. We will overcome even if it takes us forever, mostly for the main reason that the majority of people hate us..... because we are stubborn SOB's and hate to lose.
Thanks for your time.
And you know what.... she is still in the US, living in Atlanta; her parents are here, her brother is here (they live in Houston). And you want to know why she is still in the US. Because as per her words "there is no better place in the world to live". Her perpective was all I needed to draw my conclusions about that. I have no personal experience with it, so I cannot begin to judge anyone on what I think should be done with their lives.
And if you are a follower of history is was not until after Bosnia that the United states and NATO got involved in this war. So things were messed up way before we got there. What the US did not want to happen was another Bosnia to happen in Kosovo as well. So that is when the US and NATO got involved in this war.
The United States is the greatest country in the world, partly because we know we are. If people as a whole aspire to be the best then that is where you will eventually end up. My final comment on this is if you don't like it here I am quite sure that France, Germany, or Russia would welcome you with open arms.
The United States rocks. And will for year and years to come. We will overcome even if it takes us forever, mostly for the main reason that the majority of people hate us..... because we are stubborn SOB's and hate to lose.
Thanks for your time.