MustangDan

Don’t be such elitist, (must be the same Mustang is only a Mustang if it’s a V8 crowd) freedom and democracy is very suitable for all people, I glad our elections made the Iraq’s elections possible. This doesn’t assure freedom and democracy; it does give it a chance, something some of you should do too!

GhostTX

Yup...the things we take for granted are truly amazing to see when someone gets it for the first time. 8 suicide bombers in the lines...44 people dead because of them. And guess what? The Iraqis got back in line after their countrymen got blown to smithereens by the terrorists.

That says something.

Devildog19

Let me give you some background on myself so you understand where I am coming from. I have been lurking the forums for some time but finally registered after the forums went down and I realized how much I missed them.
I am Prior active duty military, current active reserve and a civilian police officer.
My wife is also Prior active duty and currently in air national guard.
Both my wife and I have been deployed at different times since 9/11 for the war on terror. We are both home and doing fine, thanks.

As far as the inauguration security costs...I don't think the cost should be a point of contention with anyone...Mission accomplished.....It would have been more costly (possibly paid in human lives) to let even the slightest chance for an attack open. No attempted attack or proper and active security?...Who knows, Doesn't matter!

We were attacked by Muslim Extremists. Who were funded, harbored, trained, and welcomed in Afghanistan and Iraq(most likely other MidEast countries as well). That's a fact. The middle east has produced the most prolific terrorists for the past 20-30 years. It is, as they say a breeding ground, and had to be addressed before more small scale operations, in whetever other places are carried out, if needed. We have hopefully dealt a major blow to the "heart of the beast".

North Korea......Completely different situation and needs a unique approach. North Korea does not stand alone. Anyone who thinks that China would not be inclined to side with North Korea, to at least protect it's own border and interests, is mistaken(in MY opinion). North Korea does not stand as an exporter of terrorists, only weapons. Well we have taken out the majority of their customers. If we would have focused our efforts on the Korean peninsula, I believe we would have left ourselves open to the more active and hostile threat (Mideastern Muslim extremists). Typically an aggressor will attack you when you are focused elsewhere.

As far as our troops currently in OIF and OEF, ALL of the ones I know are homesick, sometimes scared, alot of times tired and bored. But they are also always aware of the importance of their respective missions. Are their living conditions comfortable?...No. Do they have everything they need?...Most likely, No. Will they overcome, adapt, succeed?...Definitely!!! I fully support our president and will again go anywhere in the world I am needed. I won't go blindly and I do not follow blindly, I just know that what this administration is doing is the right thing.

I understand people have their own views and I understand not everyone sees the world the same way. But I just wanted to voice my opinion(which I rarely see the need to do) and hopefully share my viewpoint maturely and without malice toward anyone......Having said that.... I won't be coerced into a flamefest. but please share your views if you feel the need and I'll give an honest try to understand your views.

Thanks for reading.

BeeTLe

As someone who is currently in Ramadi, Iraq, and who recently left Fallujah, (where I was able to order a new 2005 MUSTANG GT at the Camp Fallujah Exchange through the military's overseas buying program prior to the battle!!!) and who just yesterday was a witness to history as people all over the country, including the Sunni Triangle, came out to vote even though it might cost them their lives because of freaking cowardly terrorists .....I just want to say.....THAT IN 6 to 8 WEEKS I AM GOING TO BE HOME DRVING MY SUPER-BAD MUSTANG GT ALL OVER THE FREAKING PLACE!!! WOOOOO HOOOO!!!!! LOOK OUT NORTHERN VA...HERE I COME!!!! :drive:

Now...top that.


:bowdown:

Devildog19

OHH RAH!!!!!!!!!! :usa:

Zastava_101

Since I'm not an American I see things differently than most of the people here. I'm not gonna judge anyone, but this situation in Iraq is a lot similar what happened in my country few years ago.
Back in 1999 Americans weren't happy with Serbian president. So they did everything they could (including bombing) to sent him in prison for "war crimes." Now, 5 years latter Serbia have new president and situation is 10 times worse now than it was back in 1999. Situation was bad before, but its 10 times worse now. There are less jobs, more criminal, economy is bad, everything is more expensive, paycheck are always late (up to 7 months late) ...
What makes you think that same thing won't happen in Iraq?

Shea

Devil Dog, I agree with everything you said (I have a sister who is going to Iraq soon, so this whole thing does affect me to some extent).

Red Star, it is interesting, I have a good friend who is a Bosnian refugee, and while she would never say America's foreign policy is perfect, she said her life became much better once Americans got involved in Bosnia/Serbia a few years back...

Zastava_101

Life for us who had a chance to move to USA or Canada or Australia or some better European country (such as Germany or Austria or Switzerland or Sweden) did get better. I was talking about people that are still left in Serbia/Bosnia/Croatia.
I do have a family friends that live in Lansing, we were neighbors back in Knin, Croatia. That is your friends last name (if you don't wanna say it here you can sent me PM).

hootie51

For those of you opposed to Presidnet Bush let me ask....how do you think the elections (which we are all in agreement is a good thing) would have happened without him?? I guarantee you if Kerry had been elected the Iraqi elections would never have taken place. History will remember Bush as being a president who actually followed through with his plans on ridding the world of terror and not just being all talk. God Bless Predient Bush!!!

Grantsdale

For those of you opposed to Presidnet Bush let me ask....how do you think the elections (which we are all in agreement is a good thing) would have happened without him?? I guarantee you if Kerry had been elected the Iraqi elections would never have taken place. History will remember Bush as being a president who actually followed through with his plans on ridding the world of terror and not just being all talk. God Bless Predient Bush!!!
[/b][/quote]


Not only that, but would Gore have done anything after 9/11? Not a darn chance. Don't try Bush bashing, I'll ram you all through the ringer.

MilStang

I also do not usually give my opinion, but having recently returned from overseas I want to add to Devildog19's statement.

None of us who have served, are serving, or will serve over there want to go there; however, we know that what we are doing is providing for the Iraq/Afghanistan people's freedom and security. I had the opportunity to talk to many people over there and all say the situation is far better than what it was previously.

That said, myself and almost all the military personnel I talk with are far happier to be over there fighting than sitting in our country waiting for the next attack or the war to be brought to our land. There is no perfect defense and I would rather take the fight to them than sit back and let them come to us. Just my 2 cents there as well.

I will refrain from talking about the previous regime or about President Bush, although I will say that everyone I know overseas was very happy when he was re-elected.

pilot1129

Not only that, but would Gore have done anything after 9/11? Not a darn chance. Don't try Bush bashing, I'll ram you all through the ringer.

[/b][/quote]

Quite frankly, your guarantee means little to me, unless you are Kerry himself. Point being, no one can speculate what would've/could've happened without the powers of Ms Cleo. Same goes for you Grantsdale, please use facts to support an argument instead of "i dont think gore would have done this or that..."

Now, about following through on his actions, IMO, Iraq was the equivalent to throwing a child in a pool to teach him to swim. Jump headfirst and see what happens. But, no use dwelling in the past, whats done is done.

Now, about him ridding the world of terror. Funny, there are more dangerous countries out there waiting to be invaded than Iraq. I wont get into the whole oil debate/conspiracy because again, thats all "I think X and I think Y..."

Fact: The most successful democracies in this world are those which were led from within. IE: the US, France, England, India... All inspired from within. I darest thou anyone to name a democracy where the people led the revolution that is doing poorly. Except Russia, thats a different scenario.

Now, lets take Germany for example which had democracy forced upon them. Now, I like Germany, studied the language for 8 years now. love the food. But look at the unemployment there. Mercedes is not doing so well, BMW, VW, Opel, and other companies are having to withdraw jobs because labor costs are too much, budget deficiet has surpassed for a couple years now the amount of deficiet the EU allows Germany to have. Worst symptoms are in East Germany which had Democracy forced upon them after the cold war. Not exactly a breeding ground for terrorists or extremists, but its still not as well off as it could be considering the enormous resources they have with their automotive skills.
Through my researches at school, its clear that countries once led by an autocratic govt need to revolt themselves for results that are much better than if democracy was set by a 3rd party.

Last and most important point. I am currently Air Force ROTC, always wanted to be in the military, since I was 4 years old. This is my dream in life. I dont like using past, current, or future service to validate a point. Yes, military experience give people different insights towards a topic, but using it to preface a point is like saying "Because I was in the military and went through this, I think that." Now, while it may not be intended, it gives the impression that the Air Force and all people in it feel the one way that follows the "I served... " statement.

So far, Beetle's statement relating military experience, Mustangs, and current politics is BY FAR the best one I have read so far. props to you.

So, lets see what degree burns I get after this one. :flame2:



PS: cheers to all past, current, and future brethren in arms :flag2:

pilot1129

Beetle, where in Northern VA are you coming to? I'm in Springfield, Fairfax. Its a wintery mess here today. black ice everywhere. Although, i presume that may be a welcome sight after the warmer temperatures in Iraq?

hootie51

[/quote}
Quite frankly, your guarantee means little to me, unless you are Kerry himself. Point being, no one can speculate what would've/could've happened without the powers of Ms Cleo. Same goes for you Grantsdale, please use facts to support an argument instead of "i dont think gore would have done this or that..."

Here are the facts: Based on intelligence at the time of the invasion, Saddam had WMD (everyone, even Kerry said based on the intelligence Saddam needed to be removed and that he posed a viable threat to the world). It was only after we invaded and found no WMDs that people began to oppose the war...I speculate that Saddam had plenty of time to hide his weapons or even destroy them but I want to state only facts. Fact: Diplomacy did not work with Saddam. The U.S. has been trying since the first Gulf War to disarm Iraq to no avail. Alas, talking can only go on for so long before action is needed and IMO 13 years is plenty of time to talk and negotiate. As far as which country proves the greater threat there is no way to measure and tell for sure so here is my opinion. A democratic Iraq will help lead the way for a more peaceful and stable middle east. The middle east is the breeding ground for terrorism...NOT North Korea which is why it makes more sense to stabalize Iraq and drive out terrorism in that area. Yes North Korea is a potential threat and they should be dealt with (and I believe the President is doing that) but it is in the best interest of the world to see that Iraq becomes a successful working democracy. We cant just talk about getting rid of terrorism and having a peaceful middle east...it takes action and with all action there is risk, but you accept the risk and pray to God that you are successful and I believe that through the work of our military and our president we will succeed!

pilot1129

not only places like north korea, but how about pakistan? if i am correct, they do have nuclear weapons, are led by a puppet democracy controlled mainly by the military general musharraf, and have the vast majority of the populace opposed to musharraf for supporting the US, as well as the US itself. Pakistan DEFINATELY has nuclear weapons they have tested. But i guess that can be overlooked.

Action is only needed after a direct threat is made. Saddam made no such threats.
About a democratic iraq leading to a stable middle east... lets consider Africa. There have been over 40, 42 I believe, countries which have held "elections" under foreign influence. These have all come to succumb to majority rule again.

Dont get me wrong, this election was spectacular. that story of voters getting back in line after an attack is powerful. My only gripe is that one day of success does not cover a year and a half of mistakes. If it does, that is buying into Machiavelli's theory of the end justifies the means, atleast in this scenario.

hootie51

Saddam became a threat when it was discovered he had deep ties with Al-Quida and WMDs that he could potentially give to them. As far as the last year and a half being a mistake...how was it a mistake when we successfullly ousted Saddam and put the country on the right path. A majority of Iraqis are very greatful Saddam is gone and that the coalition is there. Its only a small group of insurgents that are opposed to democracy and unfortunantly the administration underestimated them but to say the last year and a half is a mistake after all that has been accomplished is a mistake IMO.

Zastava_101

Once again, I'm gonna use my country as an example. We were really happy when Milosevic left. Now, 5 years later, we wish he stayed as a president. He was a jerk, but this other guy is even bigger jerk.

But enough about politics. Lets talk about something more fun, like cars for example.

Devildog19

But enough about politics. Lets talk about something more fun, like cars for example.
[/quote]

Agreed!

pilot1129

was it ever officially discovered saddam had ties with al quaeda? must have missed that one. as far as I know, bin Laden does not like saddam.

also, i didnt say all of the last year and a half has been a mistake. I said one success does not cover up for all the mistakes made in the last year and a half. abu ghraib, armor availability (i have an interesting story about that from a friend who loaded up his humvee with sandbags as a substitute for armor down in Iraq), the prisoners in Cuba (hear about the interrogators using sexual actions by women to lure answers out of the men and coloring on them with fake menstrual blood?)

anyway how about we close this thread? i'm sure we all have better things to do than bicker over this. GO P-51s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

a little historical air force lingo for you all there. which is coincidentally part of my license plate. wooo hooo

pilot1129

also, one yay to bush from me for proposing to raise the amount given to family members of those who die in service. woo hoo