Help me explain prenuptial...to her.
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Since you asked... I must say that these are my own opinions. I do not wish to hurt, insult, or otherwise malign anyone else. But this topic always bothers me at a fundamental level of what marriage is supposed to be about... so I'm responding. Sorry if it hurts, insults, or otherwise maligns, they're just my opinions, k? Thanks.
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First, right off the bat: If you're not ready to share your stuff, then you're not ready to marry, IMO. Time to call it off until you're really ready... and if she's not the one you wanna share stuff with, is she really the one to be with at all? Hm?
I don't know enough about you to really say anything about your financial and possessions status, but do you really have enough to truly worry about this? After the marriage has actually started, from that point forward, no matter, what, *everything you do* is 50% hers... and vice versa... so unless you're not going to make money, buy things, etc... you are SOL on that. That's proven by years of law. After that, it's a negotiations and desire to continue fighting for the things you desire... whether that's amicable or not is up to the two parties. Wars of the Roses happen. But right off, gearing up for the war before the battle is even begun?
Which is why I question contemplating prenups. You take your chances, and if it's something that's crossing the mind... you aren't in it for the right reasons. This is my opinion, naive as it may be, but seriously... if it's something you're going to be constantly worried about, then you are screwing it up from the first. It will hurt her, and always be in the back of her head too, and ultimately might wind up being such a sore point, or a suspiciousness issue, that the marriage is doomed. Again, just my opinion.
Reverse it... would you want to have her come up to you with this? And how would you feel? I know how I'd feel... I'd be done with the relationship. Nobody calls me a cheating bastard before the marriage even starts. I'd be insulted, hurt, and to be honest? Screw her, go away, you suspicious broad. I'll find someone who trust me and I can trust.
But then, I'm dumb like that... I'd rather have a best friend who wants to be with me and share everything than what would be akin to a business partner who I have to protect myself from from a potential situation that may or may not happen.
And that's my opinion. But it's your life. Do what you will, and good luck!
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Now, the final question to be answered... how to bring it up? Well, news like this has no way to make it pretty. You just do it, and hope she decides you're worth it, I suppose. No flowers, no gifts... this is a hurtful idea, I'm gonna guess, to talk to her about, and as such, trying to make it sugary and pretty is just not gonna happen.
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First, right off the bat: If you're not ready to share your stuff, then you're not ready to marry, IMO. Time to call it off until you're really ready... and if she's not the one you wanna share stuff with, is she really the one to be with at all? Hm?
I don't know enough about you to really say anything about your financial and possessions status, but do you really have enough to truly worry about this? After the marriage has actually started, from that point forward, no matter, what, *everything you do* is 50% hers... and vice versa... so unless you're not going to make money, buy things, etc... you are SOL on that. That's proven by years of law. After that, it's a negotiations and desire to continue fighting for the things you desire... whether that's amicable or not is up to the two parties. Wars of the Roses happen. But right off, gearing up for the war before the battle is even begun?
Which is why I question contemplating prenups. You take your chances, and if it's something that's crossing the mind... you aren't in it for the right reasons. This is my opinion, naive as it may be, but seriously... if it's something you're going to be constantly worried about, then you are screwing it up from the first. It will hurt her, and always be in the back of her head too, and ultimately might wind up being such a sore point, or a suspiciousness issue, that the marriage is doomed. Again, just my opinion.
Reverse it... would you want to have her come up to you with this? And how would you feel? I know how I'd feel... I'd be done with the relationship. Nobody calls me a cheating bastard before the marriage even starts. I'd be insulted, hurt, and to be honest? Screw her, go away, you suspicious broad. I'll find someone who trust me and I can trust.
But then, I'm dumb like that... I'd rather have a best friend who wants to be with me and share everything than what would be akin to a business partner who I have to protect myself from from a potential situation that may or may not happen.
And that's my opinion. But it's your life. Do what you will, and good luck!
---
Now, the final question to be answered... how to bring it up? Well, news like this has no way to make it pretty. You just do it, and hope she decides you're worth it, I suppose. No flowers, no gifts... this is a hurtful idea, I'm gonna guess, to talk to her about, and as such, trying to make it sugary and pretty is just not gonna happen.
Hi, sorry i was out all day yesterday, very good point. let me explain the flip side. ill get right to it.
As you know we live in an age where facebook, twitter, plentyoffish, craigslist all make it easier to find another partner. before when these didnt exist, marriage was all about sharing and caring and joining your lives together. however with the ease of infidelity why should i be the one to suffer?
im quoting from a site for reasons for prenups, and this one applies to me:
"1. You are much wealthier than your partner. A prenuptial agreement can ensure that your partner is marrying you for who you are, and not for your money." in that token if she's marrying ME, why should it matter? I believe I have done my part to get to know her and feel like this will give me the peace of mind, but if she doesnt want prenup after getting to know me, what does that tell you about her?
On that same token, lets mention "wills", the document that tells where belongings go after one passes away. we wouldnt need one either if people who loved each other talked about it verbally and knew where belongings would go after the fact, right? but we have them so that in some cases the belongings go to the right person incase someone decides to cheat the system!
heres another case in point, all marriages start out happy, exciting, passionate, horny, but later it dies down. "later" being the lose term here, could mean different time for anybody, and when things go bad both sides look into the money aspect, what can i have that will give ME more money, and restore my happiness. in some situations its "how can I screw the other one over more" in this day and age things are different my friend, relationships end real fast, cheating happens very easily, and when it comes to ending a marriage everyone knows its a pain in the ***.
its easy to get to the conclusion of "we love each other to share everything", but my difference with your opinion is that i think ahead before i take the first step.
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Joined: October 11, 2009
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That has nothing to do with the issue in today's American society.
Two people can be madly in love, open and honest, be true partners and all that good stuff. And the marriage can be a wonderful marriage and have every prospect of being one of those that lasts forever.
But in this day and age where 50% of marriages end - and particularly the increasing number that end quickly and badly these days - the fact remains that either or both partners retain the right to change their mind and become a-holes. Not just the cheating, lying, deserting kind; but the kind that then purposely tries to steal YOUR assets and wreck YOUR dream that they suddenly decided was no longer for them.
Had a great first marriage - 17 yrs. Loved and cherished each other and were best friends for a huge chunk of my life. Many good things about it - too many to go into here. Come home one day and she's gone. Then proceeded to refuse a 50% settlement and merely wanted to wreck my remaining dream - even tried to force the cutting of my trees just for spite.
In the end the judge awarded her only 1/3 and I kept my home/lifestyle here at the ranch.
5 yrs later I try again. But after the first experience, I vowed to myself before God that I would never risk my home, trees, ranch, horses that He has blessed me with... because of the hard learned life lesson that people can and do change their minds regardless of the love and vows expressed.
Since it was a second marriage for both of us, we both had assets and it was easier to explain a pre-nup than if only one of us had assets and it looked like a pre-nup was just being selfish and not willing to share with the less prosperous partner. Besides, I'll share all my stuff - they just can't have it if they split. My explanation to her was as clear cut (though more thorough) as I just described above. And I explained that what if I were to be the one that changed my mind - a pre-nup would protect her from me becoming an a-hole and trying to steal her stuff.
So the pre-nup was written "should we divorce, you take your stuff (that you brought into the marriage), I keep my stuff, and we split anything we jointly acquire/build from the date of marriage forward 50/50". She seemed rational about it until the week before the marriage, then starting making a scene. (Obviously some of her "Ms Independent" friends were talking in her ear.) And I reminded her of the vow I made to myself and she could cancel the wedding if she wants to renege on her agreeing to a pre-nup previously, that I would not put my home and my kids (horses) at risk should she decide to quit someday.
Its a good thing I held my ground because she unfolded as a true whacko nutcase, argued about everything, tried to pull a gun on me at one point (and I was too stupid to make a police report and have her spend a night in the can because I was 'trying to repair our relationship' thru counseling with dumb **** elders in a church), and she was gone in 6 mos. Wow... And it didn't stop her from trying to screw me after she walked away and went home to mama. But thankfully I insisted on the pre-nup and today, I have my home, trees, ranch, and horses though it still cost me plenty in legal fees (had I called the cops it would have helped me tremendously from a legal standpoint. And now I know to put the splitting of legal fees 50/50 into the contract too! LOL Otherwise the guy always gets screwed for it even though the chick splits.
). You just never truly know another person until you have been together for quite some time - and even then you can wake up one day and they quit being the person you knew. Plain and ugly truth.
And I will never marry again. No more lawyers no more crap. I am a loyal monogamous man and if a live in situation were to present itself with some lady I loved and cared for I would honor the arrangement as if I were married - and expect her to do the same or no reason to be together. But no more legal ties, no more lawyers - ever again! I'm out!!
But for anyone else that wants to marry, if you are bringing a chunk of assets into the marriage, I highly recommend a "marriage contract" / pre-nup. If you are both starting out with very little, probably not as important, although based on my life experience from my first marriage...
I think only an unreasonable person - or greedy/crafty person - would reject an advance contract that covers the 'what if' where it simply returns assets to each respective partner and clearly states that joint stuff is split 50/50. No arguing should a break-up occur. As much as marriage is a commitment based on love (and spirituality for many of us), anytime you co-mingle assets it becomes partly a business type relationship too.
In my hard earned opinion.
Good luck!
Two people can be madly in love, open and honest, be true partners and all that good stuff. And the marriage can be a wonderful marriage and have every prospect of being one of those that lasts forever.
But in this day and age where 50% of marriages end - and particularly the increasing number that end quickly and badly these days - the fact remains that either or both partners retain the right to change their mind and become a-holes. Not just the cheating, lying, deserting kind; but the kind that then purposely tries to steal YOUR assets and wreck YOUR dream that they suddenly decided was no longer for them.
Had a great first marriage - 17 yrs. Loved and cherished each other and were best friends for a huge chunk of my life. Many good things about it - too many to go into here. Come home one day and she's gone. Then proceeded to refuse a 50% settlement and merely wanted to wreck my remaining dream - even tried to force the cutting of my trees just for spite.
In the end the judge awarded her only 1/3 and I kept my home/lifestyle here at the ranch.5 yrs later I try again. But after the first experience, I vowed to myself before God that I would never risk my home, trees, ranch, horses that He has blessed me with... because of the hard learned life lesson that people can and do change their minds regardless of the love and vows expressed.
Since it was a second marriage for both of us, we both had assets and it was easier to explain a pre-nup than if only one of us had assets and it looked like a pre-nup was just being selfish and not willing to share with the less prosperous partner. Besides, I'll share all my stuff - they just can't have it if they split. My explanation to her was as clear cut (though more thorough) as I just described above. And I explained that what if I were to be the one that changed my mind - a pre-nup would protect her from me becoming an a-hole and trying to steal her stuff.
So the pre-nup was written "should we divorce, you take your stuff (that you brought into the marriage), I keep my stuff, and we split anything we jointly acquire/build from the date of marriage forward 50/50". She seemed rational about it until the week before the marriage, then starting making a scene. (Obviously some of her "Ms Independent" friends were talking in her ear.) And I reminded her of the vow I made to myself and she could cancel the wedding if she wants to renege on her agreeing to a pre-nup previously, that I would not put my home and my kids (horses) at risk should she decide to quit someday.
Its a good thing I held my ground because she unfolded as a true whacko nutcase, argued about everything, tried to pull a gun on me at one point (and I was too stupid to make a police report and have her spend a night in the can because I was 'trying to repair our relationship' thru counseling with dumb **** elders in a church), and she was gone in 6 mos. Wow... And it didn't stop her from trying to screw me after she walked away and went home to mama. But thankfully I insisted on the pre-nup and today, I have my home, trees, ranch, and horses though it still cost me plenty in legal fees (had I called the cops it would have helped me tremendously from a legal standpoint. And now I know to put the splitting of legal fees 50/50 into the contract too! LOL Otherwise the guy always gets screwed for it even though the chick splits.
). You just never truly know another person until you have been together for quite some time - and even then you can wake up one day and they quit being the person you knew. Plain and ugly truth.And I will never marry again. No more lawyers no more crap. I am a loyal monogamous man and if a live in situation were to present itself with some lady I loved and cared for I would honor the arrangement as if I were married - and expect her to do the same or no reason to be together. But no more legal ties, no more lawyers - ever again! I'm out!!
But for anyone else that wants to marry, if you are bringing a chunk of assets into the marriage, I highly recommend a "marriage contract" / pre-nup. If you are both starting out with very little, probably not as important, although based on my life experience from my first marriage...
I think only an unreasonable person - or greedy/crafty person - would reject an advance contract that covers the 'what if' where it simply returns assets to each respective partner and clearly states that joint stuff is split 50/50. No arguing should a break-up occur. As much as marriage is a commitment based on love (and spirituality for many of us), anytime you co-mingle assets it becomes partly a business type relationship too.
In my hard earned opinion.
Good luck!
may I say...I LOVE YOU?...
you just described how I was thinking but with an actual experience, im thinking of those BEFORE they happen.
Legacy TMS Member
Joined: February 2, 2004
Posts: 7,648
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From: Insane
Hi, sorry i was out all day yesterday, very good point. let me explain the flip side. ill get right to it.
As you know we live in an age where facebook, twitter, plentyoffish, craigslist all make it easier to find another partner. before when these didnt exist, marriage was all about sharing and caring and joining your lives together. however with the ease of infidelity why should i be the one to suffer?
im quoting from a site for reasons for prenups, and this one applies to me:
"1. You are much wealthier than your partner. A prenuptial agreement can ensure that your partner is marrying you for who you are, and not for your money." in that token if she's marrying ME, why should it matter? I believe I have done my part to get to know her and feel like this will give me the peace of mind, but if she doesnt want prenup after getting to know me, what does that tell you about her?
On that same token, lets mention "wills", the document that tells where belongings go after one passes away. we wouldnt need one either if people who loved each other talked about it verbally and knew where belongings would go after the fact, right? but we have them so that in some cases the belongings go to the right person incase someone decides to cheat the system!
heres another case in point, all marriages start out happy, exciting, passionate, horny, but later it dies down. "later" being the lose term here, could mean different time for anybody, and when things go bad both sides look into the money aspect, what can i have that will give ME more money, and restore my happiness. in some situations its "how can I screw the other one over more" in this day and age things are different my friend, relationships end real fast, cheating happens very easily, and when it comes to ending a marriage everyone knows its a pain in the ***.
its easy to get to the conclusion of "we love each other to share everything", but my difference with your opinion is that i think ahead before i take the first step.
As you know we live in an age where facebook, twitter, plentyoffish, craigslist all make it easier to find another partner. before when these didnt exist, marriage was all about sharing and caring and joining your lives together. however with the ease of infidelity why should i be the one to suffer?
im quoting from a site for reasons for prenups, and this one applies to me:
"1. You are much wealthier than your partner. A prenuptial agreement can ensure that your partner is marrying you for who you are, and not for your money." in that token if she's marrying ME, why should it matter? I believe I have done my part to get to know her and feel like this will give me the peace of mind, but if she doesnt want prenup after getting to know me, what does that tell you about her?
On that same token, lets mention "wills", the document that tells where belongings go after one passes away. we wouldnt need one either if people who loved each other talked about it verbally and knew where belongings would go after the fact, right? but we have them so that in some cases the belongings go to the right person incase someone decides to cheat the system!
heres another case in point, all marriages start out happy, exciting, passionate, horny, but later it dies down. "later" being the lose term here, could mean different time for anybody, and when things go bad both sides look into the money aspect, what can i have that will give ME more money, and restore my happiness. in some situations its "how can I screw the other one over more" in this day and age things are different my friend, relationships end real fast, cheating happens very easily, and when it comes to ending a marriage everyone knows its a pain in the ***.
its easy to get to the conclusion of "we love each other to share everything", but my difference with your opinion is that i think ahead before i take the first step.
Well, in any case, you should do what you feel is best, of course, because when it comes down to it, you must live your life. None of us can. Good luck with it, and I do wish ya the best on this.
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Yeah, well, call me an idiot romantic. It just seems so cynical that everyone almost from the start has their suspicions that the marriage won't last.
Well, in any case, you should do what you feel is best, of course, because when it comes down to it, you must live your life. None of us can. Good luck with it, and I do wish ya the best on this.
Well, in any case, you should do what you feel is best, of course, because when it comes down to it, you must live your life. None of us can. Good luck with it, and I do wish ya the best on this.
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Joined: April 28, 2010
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From: Los Angeles
Hi, sorry i was out all day yesterday, very good point. let me explain the flip side. ill get right to it.
As you know we live in an age where facebook, twitter, plentyoffish, craigslist all make it easier to find another partner. before when these didnt exist, marriage was all about sharing and caring and joining your lives together. however with the ease of infidelity why should i be the one to suffer?
As you know we live in an age where facebook, twitter, plentyoffish, craigslist all make it easier to find another partner. before when these didnt exist, marriage was all about sharing and caring and joining your lives together. however with the ease of infidelity why should i be the one to suffer?
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Charliehorse, I have read your extensive reasoning on this subject that you have written and must say that I never believed that I could agree more with you!!! I mean 100% agree, right down to the bible evidence! GOOD WRITING!! The only thing I might add to what you said thus far is that before lawyers and judges got their greedy hands into the divorce business, and that is what it is .. a business, people WORKED at their marriage! Divorce wasn't an option! Now, if we look at what a marriage is based on .. TRUST... we see a vantage point where lawyers FEED on ! In BUSINESS law, trust is a liability! Lawyers have changed marriage from an institution of trust into a business institution! Unfortunately, in this world we live in, the one who loves the least ,seems to have the most control in a relationship! So now in order to gain some form of "solvency" in a venture that has no guarantee of success, an "Insurance policy" must be put in place! Banks do it all the time! Why shouldn't YOU?! Banks call it colateral! We call it a prenup! They don't want to lose anything, and neither do we! Prenups stop the proliferation of marriage being an opportunity to get rich by people acting in a heartless and ruthless manner! FACE IT! YOU CAN'T READ ANOTHER PERSON'S HEART! A person can change over night! Just like a bank protects iself from financial disaster due to "default", it protects you from the "quitters"! If they want your stuff, they need to stay with you to have it! Now they have to weigh out what they really want... is it really worth it to them? Now they have to work things out! If they manifest a "You Bastard!" attitude about a prenup, they never had honerable intentions!!
Mach 1 Member
Joined: February 23, 2008
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From: new castle, pa
Actually her emotional ways rubbed off on me! One of those exclamation points is probably hers! When she first left , I probably used 4 exclamation points! Just be patient with me and some day I might get down to just 1 per sentence.... maybe. 
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From: State of Jefferson Mountains USA
Absolutely... right up until one quits. You can't push a rope.
My father and mother raised me to take pride in what I've earned by myself. So the concept of taking anything that's not rightfully mine is completely foreign, marriage or no marriage. There's no honor or pride in hoodwinking someone out of what is rightfully theirs, no matter what hurt they've possibly inflicted on me. I don't change who I am because of someone else.
So I question if someone who tries to grub all of the joint assets was ever really the person their spouse believed them to be in the first place.
So I question if someone who tries to grub all of the joint assets was ever really the person their spouse believed them to be in the first place.
As for grubbing stuff - all those good intentions go right out the window when they decide to become traitors. Then regardless of their words, their actions reveal the "get all you can - you deserve it" attitude against you. It is unbelievable what that person becomes once they quit.
Everyone's views on marriage are different, but mine are pretty extreme by society's standards today. For my wife and I divorce is not an option. The word isn't even in our vocabulary in any conversation that pertains to our relationship. We've been married for over 16 years, and didn't live together or sleep together before we were married, I guess we were pretty old-fashioned in that regard.
I understand. All of that.
As for "Not an option", we spoke those words out loud to each other in the early years. Didn't need to mention as the years went by because it was obvious by how close we were on so many levels. It worked well right up to the day she quit and left. Then the scheming really started.
And if there isn't two people who both want it to work, there is no longer anything to work at. I believe just about anything can be overcome and time does heal most wounds. But both have to want many of the same things - like they used to.
Its really not about that. NO ONE goes thru all the stress & junk of courting, telling friends & relatives, planning wedding, getting married, moving, merging, joint dreams, fun dreams, excitement, etc., and plans on divorcing, or even having an easy escape valve, or thinking it won't last. Especially the 2nd time around.
I would have liked nothing better in my life than never being deserted. It is a mind bender. And the heart scars heal in time, but never completely. Your whole paradigm of past, present & future was based around "us". Now You're thrown back into "I", "me". And if adjustments were needed, then one has to communicate that - not quit and split. But sadly that happens all the time, everyday.
So like many lessons in life, one learns to plan and dream for the best, but simultaneously have a plan for the reality of the worst that can happen.
True. And that's sad. They become so wound up on their imaginary monsters that if you really didn't give them anything much to be vengeful about, they manufacture crap like Dreamworks!
Not without a Pre-nup baby!
***********
btw, be prepared for the chores of the Pre-nup (assuming you get past the explanation and agreement with your soon to be fiance). You both have to prepare a thorough and complete balance sheet of ALL of your assets and ALL of your liabilities. Skipping anything puts one in the position of potentially having the Marriage Contract overturned during any divorce proceedings. And both parties have to have separate attorney's - so they both know you and your fiance's assets and liabilities. AND - it needs to be done well in advance of the wedding. If you are within weeks or 30 days, some attorney's object because it may appear you are "springing it" on your partner right before the wedding where backing out would be difficult.
"Hi Babe... we need to have a talk pretty soon, our relationship is getting more serious all the time. And as much as moving forward with sharing our lives is based on love and commitment, there's also a business side of blending assets......."
Good luck!!
Last edited by cdynaco; Jul 13, 2010 at 11:39 PM.
Team Mustang Source
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From: Bauhston
Does anyone think that the process is ironic? So you sign a (prenep) contract that states when the marriage fails; then you sign a marriage license; then you VOW to be together forever.
Whatever you guys decide, may I be the first to congratulate you, and hope that no one ever pulls out the other contract.
The most two important words in a successful marriage are “yes dear”.
(then do what you want anywho)
Whatever you guys decide, may I be the first to congratulate you, and hope that no one ever pulls out the other contract.
The most two important words in a successful marriage are “yes dear”.
(then do what you want anywho)
but seriously
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