18 Yr Old PA Teen Kills 14 Yr Old Parents
11/19/05, 08:57 AM
#21
Needs to be more Astony
Originally posted by 1 BULLITT@November 18, 2005, 7:04 PM
I know for a fact no one has been given that right.
Those who have no regard or respect for other persons' right to live and decide to ends someone's life along with their joys, hopes, and dreams, for whatever reason, can't expect civility with regard to their lives. It's a bit of a contradiction for someone to kill and enjoy it with all the pain it causes and then say "sorry, I made a mistake, be compassionate and spare my life".
Every assurance should be offered to perpetrator of the benefits of his pending reincarnation and rehabilitation. In that order.
I know for a fact no one has been given that right.
Those who have no regard or respect for other persons' right to live and decide to ends someone's life along with their joys, hopes, and dreams, for whatever reason, can't expect civility with regard to their lives. It's a bit of a contradiction for someone to kill and enjoy it with all the pain it causes and then say "sorry, I made a mistake, be compassionate and spare my life".
Every assurance should be offered to perpetrator of the benefits of his pending reincarnation and rehabilitation. In that order.
11/19/05, 09:34 AM
#22
AKA 1 BULLITT------------ Legacy TMS Member
We would be no better if we caused or rejoiced someone's death. Those who respect the value of others' lives are better. Turning the cheek just provides a second chance to be slapped again. Face it, there are a lot of mean people in the world who would end your life or one of your loved ones in a flash. There is no negotiating or reasoning with that type.
Civility works with those who practice it.
The source of the problem here it the acceptance of lower moral standards and the indifference we have for those who die needlessly ignoring the pain and suffering they endured on the way to their deaths. By contrast, countries which enforce capital punishment have a lower rate of violent crimes, therefore a lot less families are destroyed. Its not just persuasive, it is a factual deterrent.
Civility works with those who practice it.
The source of the problem here it the acceptance of lower moral standards and the indifference we have for those who die needlessly ignoring the pain and suffering they endured on the way to their deaths. By contrast, countries which enforce capital punishment have a lower rate of violent crimes, therefore a lot less families are destroyed. Its not just persuasive, it is a factual deterrent.
11/19/05, 10:32 AM
#24
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I see inmates almost every day and I can tell you that I support the death penalty. Some of these guys get used to this life to the point of it's not punishment anymore. A/c, fed well, recreation programs, movies, the gym, hangin' with their boys, TV, and people in place to hear their grips and make sure they get what they want without getting treated too bad. To some, it's a harsh punishment. To others, it's a quite livable situation.
11/19/05, 10:42 AM
#25
GTR Member
Originally posted by 6505pony@November 18, 2005, 8:12 PM
I live less than an hours drive from where this happened. I can tell you for as long as I've lived in PA (16 years) there have been no executions that I can remember hearing of.
I live less than an hours drive from where this happened. I can tell you for as long as I've lived in PA (16 years) there have been no executions that I can remember hearing of.
August 1995 Leon Moser
July 1999 Gary Heidnick
I really wonder though when george banks is gonna get his day. He murdered 12 people in 1982. 23 years on death row! This kid will be getting medicare by the time he gets his turn.
11/19/05, 11:22 AM
#27
Needs to be more Astony
Originally posted by 1 BULLITT@November 19, 2005, 10:37 AM
We would be no better if we caused or rejoiced someone's death. Those who respect the value of others' lives are better. Turning the cheek just provides a second chance to be slapped again. Face it, there are a lot of mean people in the world who would end your life or one of your loved ones in a flash. There is no negotiating or reasoning with that type.
Civility works with those who practice it.
The source of the problem here it the acceptance of lower moral standards and the indifference we have for those who die needlessly ignoring the pain and suffering they endured on the way to their deaths. By contrast, countries which enforce capital punishment have a lower rate of violent crimes, therefore a lot less families are destroyed. Its not just persuasive, it is a factual deterrent.
We would be no better if we caused or rejoiced someone's death. Those who respect the value of others' lives are better. Turning the cheek just provides a second chance to be slapped again. Face it, there are a lot of mean people in the world who would end your life or one of your loved ones in a flash. There is no negotiating or reasoning with that type.
Civility works with those who practice it.
The source of the problem here it the acceptance of lower moral standards and the indifference we have for those who die needlessly ignoring the pain and suffering they endured on the way to their deaths. By contrast, countries which enforce capital punishment have a lower rate of violent crimes, therefore a lot less families are destroyed. Its not just persuasive, it is a factual deterrent.
Countries that use the death penelty are trying to use fear to keep order.
:scratch: If i'm not mistaken thats what Hitler did to maintain order.
11/19/05, 11:38 AM
#28
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while i can definately see your point Chris, im going to play devil's advocate here.
what about the people that wont change, because they are out there, no matter how many chances you give them? there are some people out there, who are so evil that perhaps entirley eliminateing them from the face of the earth is the best way to go. becuase if they keep on living, they'll cause more grief, pain, and suffering to the resto of the world than the rest of the world will ever feel by losing someone such as he.
not taking any side personaly, im still a bit split, but just something to think about.
what about the people that wont change, because they are out there, no matter how many chances you give them? there are some people out there, who are so evil that perhaps entirley eliminateing them from the face of the earth is the best way to go. becuase if they keep on living, they'll cause more grief, pain, and suffering to the resto of the world than the rest of the world will ever feel by losing someone such as he.
not taking any side personaly, im still a bit split, but just something to think about.
11/19/05, 12:10 PM
#29
AKA 1 BULLITT------------ Legacy TMS Member
Originally posted by Knight@November 19, 2005, 2:25 PM
:scratch: If i'm not mistaken thats what Hitler did to maintain order.
:scratch: If i'm not mistaken thats what Hitler did to maintain order.
You proved my arguments without even trying.
11/19/05, 12:25 PM
#30
Needs to be more Astony
Originally posted by 1 BULLITT@November 19, 2005, 1:13 PM
Adolph Hitler did exactly what the 18 year old did, to a lot larger scale of course. He enjoyed the every second of anguish he caused as well. There is one thing killers have in common, they like it.
You proved my arguments without even trying.
Adolph Hitler did exactly what the 18 year old did, to a lot larger scale of course. He enjoyed the every second of anguish he caused as well. There is one thing killers have in common, they like it.
You proved my arguments without even trying.
11/19/05, 01:31 PM
#31
AKA 1 BULLITT------------ Legacy TMS Member
Originally posted by Knight@November 19, 2005, 3:28 PM
That doesn't really back any argument about the death sentence.
That doesn't really back any argument about the death sentence.
What kind of sentence do you think the 18 year old carried out on the parents of the 14 year old? I can guarantee you it wasn't probation, nor did he give them a second chance. The jury of one reached the verdict.
I am willing to bet that at least one of those parents either tried to defend themselves or pleaded for their lives, pleaded for a second chance. They received none. The prosecution rested and the court adjourned without the defendants presenting their side. There was no mercy for them. And they won't be getting the benefit of any appeals either.
11/19/05, 01:58 PM
#32
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Originally posted by future9er24@November 19, 2005, 1:41 PM
what about the people that wont change, because they are out there, no matter how many chances you give them? there are some people out there, who are so evil that perhaps entirley eliminateing them from the face of the earth is the best way to go. becuase if they keep on living, they'll cause more grief, pain, and suffering to the resto of the world than the rest of the world will ever feel by losing someone such as he.
what about the people that wont change, because they are out there, no matter how many chances you give them? there are some people out there, who are so evil that perhaps entirley eliminateing them from the face of the earth is the best way to go. becuase if they keep on living, they'll cause more grief, pain, and suffering to the resto of the world than the rest of the world will ever feel by losing someone such as he.
Never let them out of prison. Make such study a part of their sentence.
Keep in mind in the US states which implement capital punishment have higher violent crime rates than those that do not. It would be a mistake to imply a causation there as it could simply be those states with more crime have more punishment and more executions. But there's little evidence that capital punishment is a deterrent, and there could be a gain to society by keeping such criminals alive.
interesting viewpoint..
11/19/05, 02:42 PM
#34
Needs to be more Astony
Originally posted by 1 BULLITT@November 19, 2005, 2:34 PM
It most certainly does.
What kind of sentence do you think the 18 year old carried out on the parents of the 14 year old? I can guarantee you it wasn't probation, nor did he give them a second chance. The jury of one reached the verdict.
I am willing to bet that at least one of those parents either tried to defend themselves or pleaded for their lives, pleaded for a second chance. They received none. The prosecution rested and the court adjourned without the defendants presenting their side. There was no mercy for them. And they won't be getting the benefit of any appeals either.
It most certainly does.
What kind of sentence do you think the 18 year old carried out on the parents of the 14 year old? I can guarantee you it wasn't probation, nor did he give them a second chance. The jury of one reached the verdict.
I am willing to bet that at least one of those parents either tried to defend themselves or pleaded for their lives, pleaded for a second chance. They received none. The prosecution rested and the court adjourned without the defendants presenting their side. There was no mercy for them. And they won't be getting the benefit of any appeals either.
If you are doing the same thing as them...The only difference you are saying is that one person doesn't care about killing people and one does.
But if you are doing the same thing then it is no different reguardless of your feelings.
11/19/05, 03:06 PM
#35
AKA 1 BULLITT------------ Legacy TMS Member
There's quite a bit of evidence that being weak, compassionate, giving criminals a second chance provides additional opportunities for additional gruesome crimes.
Obviously, most around here are familiar with Hitler's background. How many around here know that Cuba's premier, Fidle Castro was in jail for murder in the early 1950's and his mother pleaded for clemency and a second chance? I acknowledge this example is one of extremes, but every murderer starts somewhere. In Castro's case the murder of an adversary was viewed as insignificant but his progressive desire for death could have been stopped by a justified execution.
Obviously, most around here are familiar with Hitler's background. How many around here know that Cuba's premier, Fidle Castro was in jail for murder in the early 1950's and his mother pleaded for clemency and a second chance? I acknowledge this example is one of extremes, but every murderer starts somewhere. In Castro's case the murder of an adversary was viewed as insignificant but his progressive desire for death could have been stopped by a justified execution.
11/19/05, 03:14 PM
#36
Needs to be more Astony
You are using examples of people that weren't killed that did bad things after but how many countless people would have changed for the better if they weren't killed.
Somehting we will never know. You are saying to kill everyone based a a few bad examples.
But rather they should let everyone have a chance for the few good examples.
Somehting we will never know. You are saying to kill everyone based a a few bad examples.
But rather they should let everyone have a chance for the few good examples.
11/19/05, 04:14 PM
#37
AKA 1 BULLITT------------ Legacy TMS Member
The bottom line is we all are taught right from wrong. Those who elect not to be productive citizens and deprive others of their basic human rights should be given the same considerations they afford others and be judged as such.
Your viewpoint is based on hope, trust, and good will, which are excellent qualities in a person. In a perfect world those would be standards by which all people could enjoy a great life. Since Utopia is a principle impossible to achieve we have to deal with the reality of those who do not allow that accomplishment.
You appear to be a person of good virtues with a conscience. Unfortunately criminals appeal and count on those very virtues they ignore to escape their due punishment and many times succeed at it. Criminals are nothing but bullies who never stop their actions until someone stands up to them with equal fury. If the two dead people would have been your parents and you would have been present at the time of the crime your choices and actions would likely have been a lot different, as well as your present perception.
A Reagan concept of economics applies in this topic as well: "... recession is when your neighbor loses his job, depression is when you lose yours".
Your viewpoint is based on hope, trust, and good will, which are excellent qualities in a person. In a perfect world those would be standards by which all people could enjoy a great life. Since Utopia is a principle impossible to achieve we have to deal with the reality of those who do not allow that accomplishment.
You appear to be a person of good virtues with a conscience. Unfortunately criminals appeal and count on those very virtues they ignore to escape their due punishment and many times succeed at it. Criminals are nothing but bullies who never stop their actions until someone stands up to them with equal fury. If the two dead people would have been your parents and you would have been present at the time of the crime your choices and actions would likely have been a lot different, as well as your present perception.
A Reagan concept of economics applies in this topic as well: "... recession is when your neighbor loses his job, depression is when you lose yours".
11/19/05, 07:57 PM
#38
Needs to be more Astony
Originally posted by 1 BULLITT@November 19, 2005, 5:17 PM
The bottom line is we all are taught right from wrong. Those who elect not to be productive citizens and deprive others of their basic human rights should be given the same considerations they afford others and be judged as such.
Your viewpoint is based on hope, trust, and good will, which are excellent qualities in a person. In a perfect world those would be standards by which all people could enjoy a great life. Since Utopia is a principle impossible to achieve we have to deal with the reality of those who do not allow that accomplishment.
You appear to be a person of good virtues with a conscience. Unfortunately criminals appeal and count on those very virtues they ignore to escape their due punishment and many times succeed at it. Criminals are nothing but bullies who never stop their actions until someone stands up to them with equal fury. If the two dead people would have been your parents and you would have been present at the time of the crime your choices and actions would likely have been a lot different, as well as your present perception.
A Reagan concept of economics applies in this topic as well: "... recession is when your neighbor loses his job, depression is when you lose yours".
The bottom line is we all are taught right from wrong. Those who elect not to be productive citizens and deprive others of their basic human rights should be given the same considerations they afford others and be judged as such.
Your viewpoint is based on hope, trust, and good will, which are excellent qualities in a person. In a perfect world those would be standards by which all people could enjoy a great life. Since Utopia is a principle impossible to achieve we have to deal with the reality of those who do not allow that accomplishment.
You appear to be a person of good virtues with a conscience. Unfortunately criminals appeal and count on those very virtues they ignore to escape their due punishment and many times succeed at it. Criminals are nothing but bullies who never stop their actions until someone stands up to them with equal fury. If the two dead people would have been your parents and you would have been present at the time of the crime your choices and actions would likely have been a lot different, as well as your present perception.
A Reagan concept of economics applies in this topic as well: "... recession is when your neighbor loses his job, depression is when you lose yours".
11/20/05, 12:56 AM
#39
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Originally posted by DiamondBlue@November 19, 2005, 3:01 PM
There's even reason to those people alive. Study them. Get into their heads. Find out what made them into what they are. Everything from psychological to physical tests. After they're dead, cut them up and study their brains as well.
Never let them out of prison. Make such study a part of their sentence.
Keep in mind in the US states which implement capital punishment have higher violent crime rates than those that do not. It would be a mistake to imply a causation there as it could simply be those states with more crime have more punishment and more executions. But there's little evidence that capital punishment is a deterrent, and there could be a gain to society by keeping such criminals alive.
There's even reason to those people alive. Study them. Get into their heads. Find out what made them into what they are. Everything from psychological to physical tests. After they're dead, cut them up and study their brains as well.
Never let them out of prison. Make such study a part of their sentence.
Keep in mind in the US states which implement capital punishment have higher violent crime rates than those that do not. It would be a mistake to imply a causation there as it could simply be those states with more crime have more punishment and more executions. But there's little evidence that capital punishment is a deterrent, and there could be a gain to society by keeping such criminals alive.
But you make a good point about studying violent criminals and if a life sentence without possiblity of parole were an option in their cases I'd favor going this route. But all too often the life or life w/out parole sentence leaves the door open to eventual release, and the rate of recidivism is extremely high.
That's not surprising when you realize how few options there are to an ex-con. As a country we need to reexamine this issue. At the moment I have no ideas on the subject and it's evident that no one in authority does either.
11/20/05, 09:49 AM
#40
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Here's a current case in California of whether a Killer should be executed. This is probably the ultimate scenario of the discussion on this topic.
Man killed four people and was a founder of one of the most notorious gangs in California. In prison he renounced his gang past, began writting children's books, and was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. Should he be executed?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051118/ts_al...on_051118051207
Man killed four people and was a founder of one of the most notorious gangs in California. In prison he renounced his gang past, began writting children's books, and was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. Should he be executed?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051118/ts_al...on_051118051207