TMSBrad

As a Mustang enthusiast, I suppose I should welcome competition in the Muscle Car market. Competition improves products, right?

But Mustang doesn't need the Chevy Camaro or the Dodge Challenger to drive quality and performance. The best Mustangs in decades--2003 Mach 1, 2003 SVT Cobra, 2007 Shelby GT500, 2008 Shelby GT500KR--were released after the 2002 deaths of Camaro and Firebird. Five hundred horsepower, unimaginable for a showroom stock Mustang just 10 years ago, is now the minumum to be considered "high performance". Shelby and Saleen offer models with more than 700 horsepower.

Rumors have been swirling for weeks, but GM made it official today: The Camaro has been delayed. Again.

To 95% of Americans, the production Camaro will be identical to the concept that debuted three years ago. GM announced today that the 10,000 preorders taken since October 2008 won't be filled until after October 2009--almost 4 years after the unveiling. Based on standard vehicle lifecycles, the Camaro will be due for a redesign three months after the first one sells. What's worse, the Camaro convertible has been delayed until 2011.

Gas is finally affordable again, but unemployment is as high as it's ever been. Muscle cars aren't selling. Search eBay for Mustangs today, then search in a week and again in a month. You'll see the same ones, regardless of model year, pop up week after week. Ford sold fewer Mustangs in November 2008 than in any month ever. Even the Mustang II, with its 88-horsepower base engine, posted better November sales than the current model.

GM failed to capitalize on the Camaro's placement in the 2007 Transformers movie and NBC's My Own Worst Enemy, and they'll miss the boat again when Transformers 2 opens in July. That's tens of millions in wasted ad money.

I can't recall being so tired of a car before it arrived in showrooms. The Chevy Volt is supposed to save GM, but it'll never see the light of day if Camaro bankrupts the manufacturer.

Dougxox

I have been wondering the same thing. With the Govt. bail out restrictions limiting what should be built, my thought was the Camaro would be one of the first things on the chopping block. sad, its a great looking car and would'nt mind owning one with the stang.

Knight

Great post brad.


GM is really missing the boat. The camaro is going to have to face the 2011 mustang at this point, when they could have been beating up on the 2010 in comparisions with its 100hp advantage.

jsaylor

Knight is right on the money. GM has effectively blown any possibility of a first year power advantage on the V8 model since the 5.0L will likely be debuting right on the heels of the Camaro. Heck, at this rate the 5.0L might debut before the Camaro does. GM just keeps looking more and more incompetent.

Worth mentioning. Camaro production has been pushed back beyond the date when GM's restructuring proposal is due to be revealed to Congress. That may just be a coincidence, and then again..... If Congress raises objections to GM bringing another gas swilling muscle-car to the fore there may be no Camaro at all.

CalStang'07

Way back in the day, I really thought I loved my Camaros. But one test drive in a brand new Mustang GT fastback and all the magic with Chevy was suddenly gone. And I have never looked back!! Its a Mustang!! CalStang

max2000jp

We don't know the final specs of the 5.0L as of yet. 400hp right now is just a number in the air . Also HP is a nice selling point, but the power under the curve is what counts. GM’s small blocks have a nice flat power curve. We will have to see what the final output is for the 5.0L. 400hp sounds great, but I need to see it to believe it!

What I see as an advantage for the Camaro is vehicle dynamics. I look forward to a comparison of the SS vs 11’ GT, so the Mustang faithful can get a glimpse of what a modern suspension and braking system is capable of. Ford had an opportunity to improve the brakes & suspension, but came up short from the reviews in the major journals. Maybe in 2011 we will see a Watts Link and upgraded brakes, but I haven’t heard anything.

The Camaro is coming:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/09/chevrolet-camaro-production-delayed-one-month-convertible-lives/

Dougxox

This is exactly what I mean!

I don't think it will be Mustang vs Camaro vs Challanger etc. it will be what muscle cars are out there now and then the end of them... 1973 all over again......

MBK

late timing plus slim or zero when you look at the PNL for the camaro might be a bad scenario. i bet the challenger has a better PNL

ferrarimanf355

jsaylor has a point here. What if Ford needs a bailout? We need to write letters to our congresscritters and ensure that the Greenpeace fanatics don't have the final say on this.

Hollywood_North GT

I'm not entirely sure I agree with that. If you break down many of the new features being offered by the 2010 Mustang, it's possible to see how they were driven by the arrival of the new Challenger, and the expected arrival of a new Camaro.

Your initial reaction is correct...competition drives improvement.

All true...and a big problem for GM. I have my doubts about whether this car will ever arrive now, frankly. It will be the biggest and longest promotion by a car maker for a model that "almost was, but ultimately flopped."

Yep, and this is going to hurt the 2010 Mustang's numbers, too. The good news is that dealerships will have to kiss ADMs goodbye. I doubt any consumers will tolerate them now.

Well, I think GM's problems run deeper than just Camaro right now. They're out of money. The $4B will last them how long? A month? Maybe two? Then they'll be back for another handout. Whether there'll be money for that (willingness to give it to them notwithstanding) is anybody's guess.

Personally, I don't see how GM can survive the year without being broken up into pieces and sold off...or MASSIVELY downsizing.

Black GT500

I agree, today I give the Camaro a 50/50 chance or slightly less of ever hitting the showrooms.

Well I would bet it is even more. Here is a quote from Chrysler's CFO in a newspaper article today.I would have guessed GM burns a lot more money every month than Chrysler does?

jsaylor

Given how conservative Ford has been of late with their pre-production estimates I see no reason to doubt what we are hearing through typically reliable sources right now. As for the torque curve, the roller finger camshaft design and more advanced VVT on both intake and exhaust should make for a pretty flat power band. At this point 400 really isn't a stretch for an engine of these specs anyway.

I will be more than a little surprised if the 5.0L uses the same brakes the 4.6L does, if for no other reason than safety. Anything can happen, but I don't expect to see what we have now. As for the suspension, the 2011 Mustang has....by all accounts....been enormously improved in every way. Throw in the GT500 derived Handling package and a few hundred pounds less weight than the competition and the Mustang's IRS undersprung competition will likely have their work cut out for them. I have no doubt the Mustang will take some hits on the chin for 'rough road' refinement during reviews, but it could still easily be the faster car on the majority of roads and in a straight line as well, which is obviously not going to bode well for GM.

MARZ

I guess, in a way, I'm like you. You have to see the Ford 400hp 5.0L to believe its existence; I have to see a Camaro at a Chevrolet lot or on the streets in order to believe it actually exists. And while the Camaro has an IRS, it weighs much, much more than the Mustang GT. Like the Challenger, I would venture to say that, because of the weight penalty compared to the Mustang, the improvement in handling will be marginal (ride quality is subjective, I suppose, so I'm not going to even mention it). Finally, from all of the 2010 Mustang reviews I've read, it received almost universal praise in terms of handling and ride quality. In fact, I remember seeing in a couple of reviews quotes along the lines of, "this car doesn't need IRS." The brakes, on the other hand, are a different story. Let's hope those get addressed come MY 2011.

red pony

Today, my daughter,son-in-law and I , returned from an afternoon of casual car shopping. Naturally, we stopped at our favorite Ford store to sample test drive the Focus,Fusion and the Mustang for a future purchase date in the forseeable future. The salesman was very nice and bent over backwards to ready a Focus and Fusion test drive, but when it came to the Mustang, he was reluctant to even discuss the prospect stating it wasn't a good choice because it's not front wheel drive! You know, it doesn't help keep our pony car alive when you have salesmen steering prospective buyers away from the Mustang just because it's not in their eyes a good year-round car!

watchdevil

Same thing here dude. Back in 1982 when the Camaro and Firebird wowed me with style it made the then new Fox Mustang (which by then was in it's 4th model year) seem dull and inadequate in to me. For years I would design Mustangs that were sleeker and lower with actual Mustang styling cues to have the visual impact the same way Camaros and Firebirds did. I waited many years to see if Ford would make a Mustang that I would buy and it finally happened in 1994. I never lusted after a Camaro or Firebird again.

Ever since then, various Mustangs and Thunderbirds have remained close to my heart. I never want to own anything else again.

houtex

Saw this earlier: "GM just keeps looking more and more incompetent. "

And I have to say that this one statement is the exact reason that they, and Chrysler, for that matter, do not *deserve* to live. Look at Ford trying to be the competent, responsible one, in comparison. I couldn't be prouder of my choice in cars for this one reason.

I can't imagine *any* salesman steering anyone away from any prospective sale. That just seems weird to me. I do work at a dealership, and this would be a big slap on the wrist if caught. If it's a sale, you make it. Screw what they need.

CircuitBreaker

HENNESSEY PERFORMANCE ENGINEERING ANNOUNCES LIMITED EDITION 705 HP LS9 POWERPLANT FOR THE 2010 CAMARO

Extreme Performance Makeover Transforms the 2010 Camaro from Muscle Car to Super Car!

SEALY, TX – Hennessey Performance Engineering (HPE), well known for their extreme performance sports cars and muscle cars, announces their Limited Edition 2010 HPE700 Camaro.

At the heart of the beast is GM's new LS9 supercharged V8 tweaked as only HPE could to 705 horsepower and 717 lb-ft torque. To qualify as a supercar under the HPE banner it can't just go, it has to whoa. With optional 15 inch carbon brakes from the stunning new Corvette ZR1, light weight HRE wheels with Michelin PS2 tires and full suspension upgrades the HPE700 Camaro will be able to make full use of its new found power.

In addition to the power and handling upgrades., Hennessey will also be offering an exterior aerodynamics package to improve downforce at high speed. Penned by British designer, Steve Everitt, Hennessey's Cam-Aero ™ body upgrades include: Carbon fiber rear lip spoiler, carbon fiber side rocker panels, carbon fiber front splitter, front fascia with hideaway-look headlights and front billet grille. Completing the look of the HPE700 is a ZR1 inspired hood design with window showing off the Hennessey's tweaked LS9 powerplant.

"The HPE700 Camaro allows our customers to combine supercar power and performance with classic American muscle car looks in a modern, daily-drive usable sportscar with a backseat and a trunk!," said John Hennessey, President and CEO of Hennessey Performance Engineering. "We will be announcing other Hennessey turnkey vehicle packages for the 2010 Camaro in the near future along with an extensive list of aftermarket performance parts and accessories. But for now, the LS9-powered HPE700 Camaro, replete with ZR1 inspired looks and performance promises to be at the top of the American muscle car food chain later in 2009.

HPE700 buyers will also receive a 1-day performance driving course at Lonestar Motorsports Park – a ¼ mile dragstrip facility located adjacent to Hennessey's 24,000 square foot production facility and showroom.

Hennessey is offering the first HPE700 Camaros exclusively to registered bidders at the 2009 Barrett-Jackson auction in Scottsdale, AZ. Orders can be placed at the Hennessey display at the show or by phone or email beginning Tuesday, January 13 through Sunday, January 18, 2009. On Monday, January 19, 2009 the HPE700 Camaro will be available to the general public and can be ordered from select Chevrolet dealers as well as directly from Hennessey Performance Engineering.

Base price for the 2010 HPE700 Camaro is $109,500.

Located just west of Houston Texas at the Lonestar Motorsports Park complex, HPE has been building American supercars for nearly two decades with its Veyron-beating Venom Vipers, Ford GT's and recently released Dodge Challengers.

red pony

The only reason I can think of that makes sense to me is that the best time to buy a Mustang is now while it's winter while demands are low. But dealers really must hate to part with them at a lower price in this season in hopes to have stock for spring when demand and prices go up.

stangfoeva

I kind of knew this would happen to the camaro when they didn't even allow people to sit in it at the LA auto show. Like many others have said, its the Duke Nukem Forever of cars

RedCandy5.0

With all the problems with these dealers not selling cars they still do not want to deal on the Challengers. The best i have found is 1000 off sticker. You think they would deal more than they are.