Took a spin in an M3...
Took a spin in an M3...
...boy, what a sublime ride!
The engine was very impressive. Quite different than a Stang in how it makes its power of course, relying on Nth degree engineering and revs (7900rpm power peak, 8K redline), but was sooo smooth, eager and unstrained in the higher registers that it was a joy and invitation to rev her up, not a chore. Torque down low, what with the 11:1 CR and VANOS variable cam timing, was very good too, if not quite up to big V8 standards.
Steering and suspension were fantastic and anybody who doubts the performance benefits of a good IRS should take one of these for a spin on a back road. Ride was quite firm, yet with a refined suppleness whose grip was not shaken by bumps and lumps. Steering was beautifully weighted and full of feedback. Brakes were excellent too, firm and powerful.
Interior was beautifully done too, with spot on ergonomics and materials that would embarrass a similarly priced GT500, which basically is that of a tarted-up $19K price-leader base Stang.
While the GT500 offers a bigger motor, for the same or less money (factoring in ADMs on the GT500s), the M3 is far superior everywhere else IMHO with the possible exception of the big Brembos on the GT500..
This black on black 2001 only has 28K on the clock and the guys asking $30 or so, and its in immaculate condition. I've been trying to hold out for a good six speed, IRS, big brake Stang GT, but this is going to be hard to resist, though the wifey is helping out with that....
The engine was very impressive. Quite different than a Stang in how it makes its power of course, relying on Nth degree engineering and revs (7900rpm power peak, 8K redline), but was sooo smooth, eager and unstrained in the higher registers that it was a joy and invitation to rev her up, not a chore. Torque down low, what with the 11:1 CR and VANOS variable cam timing, was very good too, if not quite up to big V8 standards.
Steering and suspension were fantastic and anybody who doubts the performance benefits of a good IRS should take one of these for a spin on a back road. Ride was quite firm, yet with a refined suppleness whose grip was not shaken by bumps and lumps. Steering was beautifully weighted and full of feedback. Brakes were excellent too, firm and powerful.
Interior was beautifully done too, with spot on ergonomics and materials that would embarrass a similarly priced GT500, which basically is that of a tarted-up $19K price-leader base Stang.
While the GT500 offers a bigger motor, for the same or less money (factoring in ADMs on the GT500s), the M3 is far superior everywhere else IMHO with the possible exception of the big Brembos on the GT500..
This black on black 2001 only has 28K on the clock and the guys asking $30 or so, and its in immaculate condition. I've been trying to hold out for a good six speed, IRS, big brake Stang GT, but this is going to be hard to resist, though the wifey is helping out with that....
Team Mustang Source
Joined: June 19, 2004
Posts: 6,840
Likes: 2
From: Phoenixville, PA
Thanks for the test result. The only thing with the M3 is the cost when new (in the $50K), and the cost of ownership, once the warranty and free mantanience expires. I for one, couldn't afford one of these even if I tried! The Mustang GT was perfect for my price range (and many, many others I am sure). Plus, as you just said, this fellow wants $30K for a 2001, while you can get a brand new GT for under that today. The only good thing, is it holds its value very well. Yes, these 2 cars are totally different, but look at how much the cost is new. All that technology adds up to a big sticker price. 
And have you driven a GT500?
Post *****
Joined: February 3, 2004
Posts: 14,160
Likes: 73
I like M3's, but I enjoy beating them at the drag strip even more. 
I hope to find some at a HPDE course next season . . . . we'll see if my suspension modifications aid in the corners. M3's are fine automobiles.
I hope to find some at a HPDE course next season . . . . we'll see if my suspension modifications aid in the corners. M3's are fine automobiles.
Team Mustang Source
Joined: August 12, 2005
Posts: 2,126
Likes: 1
From: CT
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=173863
Team Mustang Source
Joined: January 29, 2004
Posts: 2,358
Likes: 1
I've driven a couple of M3's and the car as a whole is superb. That said I do have an issue or two with the car. First, the good. I love the interior, everything about it in fact. If Ford copied the design wholesale for the Mustang but for the obligatory Mustang dash humps I wouldn't complain. Handling is nice, brakes work well.....sounds like the perfect weapon, even for me, until you get to the engine.
Yes, I can hear the gasps now, but despite it's smooth and rev-happy nature there are downsides. First issue for me would be, well, the fact that it is so rev happy. Rhumb may feel like torque was fine but frankly it just didn't cut it for me. Vanos obviously makes a difference, but IMO, and contrary to how rhumb sees it, Vanos likely takes what would otherwise be a totally rev-consumed, one dimensional motor and gives it liveable low end torque. It certainly isn't ideal for those like me who aren't enamored with constantly driving around at 5k rpm plus to go quickly.
That said I could live with the M3's bottom end torque if I had to, likely thanks to Vanos, but it would always irritate me. In fact, I walked away from a fantastic deal on a 98 Mustang Cobra because I felt that car was weak on torque, and compared to the M3 it was virtually a brute so that may give you some idea. The whole concept of having to 'flog her til she screams for mercy' to go fast just gets tiresome for me. I much prefer a true, dual personality mill if given the choice.
My other problem with the M3 is that, for the money required, it just isn't that fast whatever rpm you may be driving at. Yeah, I know people have turned low 13's in them, but it never feels that fast and unlike more powerful cars like the GT500, which can turn low 12's once properly broken in and when driven well, low 13's are about as good as it gets for the Bimmer. That is hardly stellar for a 50k car.
If you like the concept behind the M3's L-6 you'll love the car, and for some it is a very good fit indeed. But for others you'll likely love the car, but be less enamored with how the engine makes it's power.
Yes, I can hear the gasps now, but despite it's smooth and rev-happy nature there are downsides. First issue for me would be, well, the fact that it is so rev happy. Rhumb may feel like torque was fine but frankly it just didn't cut it for me. Vanos obviously makes a difference, but IMO, and contrary to how rhumb sees it, Vanos likely takes what would otherwise be a totally rev-consumed, one dimensional motor and gives it liveable low end torque. It certainly isn't ideal for those like me who aren't enamored with constantly driving around at 5k rpm plus to go quickly.
That said I could live with the M3's bottom end torque if I had to, likely thanks to Vanos, but it would always irritate me. In fact, I walked away from a fantastic deal on a 98 Mustang Cobra because I felt that car was weak on torque, and compared to the M3 it was virtually a brute so that may give you some idea. The whole concept of having to 'flog her til she screams for mercy' to go fast just gets tiresome for me. I much prefer a true, dual personality mill if given the choice.
My other problem with the M3 is that, for the money required, it just isn't that fast whatever rpm you may be driving at. Yeah, I know people have turned low 13's in them, but it never feels that fast and unlike more powerful cars like the GT500, which can turn low 12's once properly broken in and when driven well, low 13's are about as good as it gets for the Bimmer. That is hardly stellar for a 50k car.
If you like the concept behind the M3's L-6 you'll love the car, and for some it is a very good fit indeed. But for others you'll likely love the car, but be less enamored with how the engine makes it's power.
Yeah, definitely, if humongous low-end torque is your top of the list, must have item, a GT500 will definitely be a better fit, especially if you pretty much limit your performance driving/criteria to straight line acceleration. Hard to beat a big, supercharged 5.4 liter on a long, smooth straight.
But the S54 M3 motor is an impressive bit of performance engineering with all sorts of juicy technical bits like: all forged internals, fully machined combustion chambers, lightweight mechanical lifters, semi-dry sump lubrication, individuals throttle bodies. Interestingly, it too has an iron block like the GT500, though is nearly a quarter ton lighter.
Basically I'd like to see Ford do more of an equivalent to the M3 to complement the more straight line, muscle car GT500. Put in a highly tuned version of the DOHC 4.6 (I'll settle for a 7K or something redline rather than 8K) with about 375-400hp, a tight six speed, streal the Brembos off the GT500 and finally put in that IRS so it won't get bucked off a lumpy back road. Price it around $35-$40K, i.e., $10K under the M3 and I think Ford would have a real winner and something to inject fresh blood into the Stang to counter the Camaro and Challenger, and perhaps snag a few potential M3 sales.
But the S54 M3 motor is an impressive bit of performance engineering with all sorts of juicy technical bits like: all forged internals, fully machined combustion chambers, lightweight mechanical lifters, semi-dry sump lubrication, individuals throttle bodies. Interestingly, it too has an iron block like the GT500, though is nearly a quarter ton lighter.
Basically I'd like to see Ford do more of an equivalent to the M3 to complement the more straight line, muscle car GT500. Put in a highly tuned version of the DOHC 4.6 (I'll settle for a 7K or something redline rather than 8K) with about 375-400hp, a tight six speed, streal the Brembos off the GT500 and finally put in that IRS so it won't get bucked off a lumpy back road. Price it around $35-$40K, i.e., $10K under the M3 and I think Ford would have a real winner and something to inject fresh blood into the Stang to counter the Camaro and Challenger, and perhaps snag a few potential M3 sales.
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Basically I'd like to see Ford do more of an equivalent to the M3 to complement the more straight line, muscle car GT500. Put in a highly tuned version of the DOHC 4.6 (I'll settle for a 7K or something redline rather than 8K) with about 375-400hp, a tight six speed, streal the Brembos off the GT500 and finally put in that IRS so it won't get bucked off a lumpy back road. Price it around $35-$40K, i.e., $10K under the M3 and I think Ford would have a real winner and something to inject fresh blood into the Stang to counter the Camaro and Challenger, and perhaps snag a few potential M3 sales.
Apples to oranges.
FR500 Member
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 3,084
Likes: 0
From: Honolulu
Personally don't like the sound (current) M3's make when accelerating hard. It has a very metallic raspy kind of noise that make it sound like the engine is working too hard. The new turbo version of the 3-series coupe is supposed to be a pretty good car - close to the M3 without the hard edges, from what I hear.
Motor is a bit raspy from the outside, sounds nice from the drivers seat. Aftermarket exhaust and, especially, midpipe really cures that rasp. Despite sound, L6 is butter smooth and feels very unstrained, though quite eager, regardless of rpm and throttle, quite obviously a purpose-built performance engine.
Terminator Cobra (SN95) as were the Coletti era SVTs in general, were supposed to be more world-class all around performance cars rather than the more narrowly focused, broad-axe American muscle car approach. The S197 espcecially was being touted as a BMW 3-series beater for the common man but alas, overlong development, development cost contstraints and resulting penny pinching resulted in something less, especially noticable in the HTT developed GT500 which is very much an American big-motored dreadnought vs. Coletti's more balanced efforts. Drag racers and muscle car fans welcomed this backslide while others expecting a more world class effort did not.
Terminator Cobra (SN95) as were the Coletti era SVTs in general, were supposed to be more world-class all around performance cars rather than the more narrowly focused, broad-axe American muscle car approach. The S197 espcecially was being touted as a BMW 3-series beater for the common man but alas, overlong development, development cost contstraints and resulting penny pinching resulted in something less, especially noticable in the HTT developed GT500 which is very much an American big-motored dreadnought vs. Coletti's more balanced efforts. Drag racers and muscle car fans welcomed this backslide while others expecting a more world class effort did not.
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Motor is a bit raspy from the outside, sounds nice from the drivers seat. Aftermarket exhaust and, especially, midpipe really cures that rasp. Despite sound, L6 is butter smooth and feels very unstrained, though quite eager, regardless of rpm and throttle, quite obviously a purpose-built performance engine.
Terminator Cobra (SN95) as were the Coletti era SVTs in general, were supposed to be more world-class all around performance cars rather than the more narrowly focused, broad-axe American muscle car approach. The S197 espcecially was being touted as a BMW 3-series beater for the common man but alas, overlong development, development cost contstraints and resulting penny pinching resulted in something less, especially noticable in the HTT developed GT500 which is very much an American big-motored dreadnought vs. Coletti's more balanced efforts. Drag racers and muscle car fans welcomed this backslide while others expecting a more world class effort did not.
Terminator Cobra (SN95) as were the Coletti era SVTs in general, were supposed to be more world-class all around performance cars rather than the more narrowly focused, broad-axe American muscle car approach. The S197 espcecially was being touted as a BMW 3-series beater for the common man but alas, overlong development, development cost contstraints and resulting penny pinching resulted in something less, especially noticable in the HTT developed GT500 which is very much an American big-motored dreadnought vs. Coletti's more balanced efforts. Drag racers and muscle car fans welcomed this backslide while others expecting a more world class effort did not.
That being said, I remember well what Road & Track said about the new Mustang GT when they tested it: "With modest clutch effort you're off to discover how shockingly good the Mustang's dynamics are." They went on to say that the SRA does a remarkable job of keeping the car planted in the turns, barring any severe upsets in the pavement, and that it was quite capable of embarrassing some of its IRS competitors. In fact, most automotive journalists feel that overall the GT is a better dance partner in the twisties than the GT500 because of not only the weight difference, but the weight distribution - which is far more balanced in the GT.
I'm far less concerned about the Mustang's dynamics - which I think are quite good overall, and exceptional for the price - and more concerned about all the little negative ways that cost cutting has affected the car.
Team Mustang Source
Joined: August 12, 2005
Posts: 2,126
Likes: 1
From: CT
Talk about cost cutting. At least the Mustang Coupe and Vert are the same body, not some left over parts. BMW re uses old body styles for different versions of the same car. Like these two, 06 BMW 325i vert E46 same old body, and this 06 325i sedan and the coupe have the new body. I guess they had a ton of parts left over.
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Talk about cost cutting. At least the Mustang Coupe and Vert are the same body, not some left over parts. BMW re uses old body styles for different versions of the same car. Like these two, 06 BMW 325i vert E46 same old body, and this 06 325i sedan and the coupe have the new body. I guess they had a ton of parts left over.
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Grand Am GS Top 5
Daytona Jan 27, 2006
1. Team Sahlen/ Porsche 996
2. Turner Motorsports/ BMW M3
3. Finlay Motorsports/ Mustang GT
4. JBS Motorsports/ Mustang GT
5. Black Forest Motorsports/ Mustang GT
Virginia International Apr 22, 2006 Top Ten
1. PlayBoy Racing/ Nissan 350Z
2. Black Forest Racing/ Mustang GT
3. Marcus Motorsports/ Porsche 997
4. BGB Motorsports/ Porsche Carrera
5. Turner Motorsports/ BMW M3
Laguna Seca May 6, 2006
1. Bernheim racing/ Porsche 996
2. Synergy Racing/ Porsche 997
3. Automatic Racing/ BMW M3
4. Blackforest Motorsports/ Mustang GT
5. Blackforest Motorsports/ Mustang GT
Phoenix Int'l Raceway May 13, 2006
1. Marcus Motorsports/ Porsce 997
2. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
3. Turner Motorsports/ BMW M3
4. Synergy Racing/ Porsce 997
5. Playboy Racing/ Mustang GT
Lime Rock
1. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
2. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
3. Marcus Motorsports/ Porsche 997
4. Blackforest Motorsports/ Mustang GT
5. Synergy Racing/ Porsche 997
Mid-Ohio June 25, 2006
1. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
2. BGB Motorsports/ Porsche Carrera
3. Automatic Racing/ BMW M3
4. Synergy Racing/ Porsche 997
5. Turner Motorsports/ BMW M3
Barber Motorsports Park (Finally a win for a Mustang) July 29, 2006
1. Playboy Racing/ Mustang GT
2. Rehagen Racing/ Mustang GT
3. Automatic Racing/ BMW M3
4. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
5. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
Le Circuit du Trois- Rivieres August 6, 2006
1. Wheel Enhancement/ Synergy Racing/ Porsche 997
2. Playboy Racing/ Mustang GT
3. Marcus Motorsport/ Porsche 997
4. Rehagen Racing/ Mustang GT
5. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
Miller Motorsport Park September 1, 2006
1. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
2. Tafle Racing/ Porsche 911
3. Playboy Racing/ Nissan 350Z
4. Automatic Racing/ BMW M3
5. Hyper Sport/ Mustang GT
Virginia Int'l Raceway Ocotber 7, 2006
1. BGB Motorsports/ Porsche Carrera
2. Automatic Racing/ BMW M3
3. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
4. Automatic Racing/ BMW M3
5. Marcus Motorsports/ Porsche 997
Manufacturers Point Standings
1. Porsche
2. BMW
3. Ford
4. Nissan
5. Pontiac
6. Cadillac
While the Mustang is obviously a competitor on the track, the only victory that went to a Mustang was on a track that has long straights, few tight corners, and more broad sweepers, where the track allows the Mustang to rely more on the power of the engine, instead of the suspension.
Post *****
Joined: February 3, 2004
Posts: 14,160
Likes: 73
Looks to me like they already did >>
Grand Am GS Top 5
Daytona Jan 27, 2006
1. Team Sahlen/ Porsche 996
2. Turner Motorsports/ BMW M3
3. Finlay Motorsports/ Mustang GT
4. JBS Motorsports/ Mustang GT
5. Black Forest Motorsports/ Mustang GT
Virginia International Apr 22, 2006 Top Ten
1. PlayBoy Racing/ Nissan 350Z
2. Black Forest Racing/ Mustang GT
3. Marcus Motorsports/ Porsche 997
4. BGB Motorsports/ Porsche Carrera
5. Turner Motorsports/ BMW M3
Laguna Seca May 6, 2006
1. Bernheim racing/ Porsche 996
2. Synergy Racing/ Porsche 997
3. Automatic Racing/ BMW M3
4. Blackforest Motorsports/ Mustang GT
5. Blackforest Motorsports/ Mustang GT
Phoenix Int'l Raceway May 13, 2006
1. Marcus Motorsports/ Porsce 997
2. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
3. Turner Motorsports/ BMW M3
4. Synergy Racing/ Porsce 997
5. Playboy Racing/ Mustang GT
Lime Rock
1. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
2. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
3. Marcus Motorsports/ Porsche 997
4. Blackforest Motorsports/ Mustang GT
5. Synergy Racing/ Porsche 997
Mid-Ohio June 25, 2006
1. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
2. BGB Motorsports/ Porsche Carrera
3. Automatic Racing/ BMW M3
4. Synergy Racing/ Porsche 997
5. Turner Motorsports/ BMW M3
Barber Motorsports Park (Finally a win for a Mustang) July 29, 2006
1. Playboy Racing/ Mustang GT
2. Rehagen Racing/ Mustang GT
3. Automatic Racing/ BMW M3
4. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
5. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
Le Circuit du Trois- Rivieres August 6, 2006
1. Wheel Enhancement/ Synergy Racing/ Porsche 997
2. Playboy Racing/ Mustang GT
3. Marcus Motorsport/ Porsche 997
4. Rehagen Racing/ Mustang GT
5. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
Miller Motorsport Park September 1, 2006
1. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
2. Tafle Racing/ Porsche 911
3. Playboy Racing/ Nissan 350Z
4. Automatic Racing/ BMW M3
5. Hyper Sport/ Mustang GT
Virginia Int'l Raceway Ocotber 7, 2006
1. BGB Motorsports/ Porsche Carrera
2. Automatic Racing/ BMW M3
3. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
4. Automatic Racing/ BMW M3
5. Marcus Motorsports/ Porsche 997
Manufacturers Point Standings
1. Porsche
2. BMW
3. Ford
4. Nissan
5. Pontiac
6. Cadillac
While the Mustang is obviously a competitor on the track, the only victory that went to a Mustang was on a track that has long straights, few tight corners, and more broad sweepers, where the track allows the Mustang to rely more on the power of the engine, instead of the suspension.
Grand Am GS Top 5
Daytona Jan 27, 2006
1. Team Sahlen/ Porsche 996
2. Turner Motorsports/ BMW M3
3. Finlay Motorsports/ Mustang GT
4. JBS Motorsports/ Mustang GT
5. Black Forest Motorsports/ Mustang GT
Virginia International Apr 22, 2006 Top Ten
1. PlayBoy Racing/ Nissan 350Z
2. Black Forest Racing/ Mustang GT
3. Marcus Motorsports/ Porsche 997
4. BGB Motorsports/ Porsche Carrera
5. Turner Motorsports/ BMW M3
Laguna Seca May 6, 2006
1. Bernheim racing/ Porsche 996
2. Synergy Racing/ Porsche 997
3. Automatic Racing/ BMW M3
4. Blackforest Motorsports/ Mustang GT
5. Blackforest Motorsports/ Mustang GT
Phoenix Int'l Raceway May 13, 2006
1. Marcus Motorsports/ Porsce 997
2. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
3. Turner Motorsports/ BMW M3
4. Synergy Racing/ Porsce 997
5. Playboy Racing/ Mustang GT
Lime Rock
1. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
2. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
3. Marcus Motorsports/ Porsche 997
4. Blackforest Motorsports/ Mustang GT
5. Synergy Racing/ Porsche 997
Mid-Ohio June 25, 2006
1. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
2. BGB Motorsports/ Porsche Carrera
3. Automatic Racing/ BMW M3
4. Synergy Racing/ Porsche 997
5. Turner Motorsports/ BMW M3
Barber Motorsports Park (Finally a win for a Mustang) July 29, 2006
1. Playboy Racing/ Mustang GT
2. Rehagen Racing/ Mustang GT
3. Automatic Racing/ BMW M3
4. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
5. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
Le Circuit du Trois- Rivieres August 6, 2006
1. Wheel Enhancement/ Synergy Racing/ Porsche 997
2. Playboy Racing/ Mustang GT
3. Marcus Motorsport/ Porsche 997
4. Rehagen Racing/ Mustang GT
5. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
Miller Motorsport Park September 1, 2006
1. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
2. Tafle Racing/ Porsche 911
3. Playboy Racing/ Nissan 350Z
4. Automatic Racing/ BMW M3
5. Hyper Sport/ Mustang GT
Virginia Int'l Raceway Ocotber 7, 2006
1. BGB Motorsports/ Porsche Carrera
2. Automatic Racing/ BMW M3
3. Turner Motorsport/ BMW M3
4. Automatic Racing/ BMW M3
5. Marcus Motorsports/ Porsche 997
Manufacturers Point Standings
1. Porsche
2. BMW
3. Ford
4. Nissan
5. Pontiac
6. Cadillac
While the Mustang is obviously a competitor on the track, the only victory that went to a Mustang was on a track that has long straights, few tight corners, and more broad sweepers, where the track allows the Mustang to rely more on the power of the engine, instead of the suspension.
And BC . . . quit copying stuff from others off of the FreshAlloy forum!
Cobra Member
Joined: May 16, 2006
Posts: 1,322
Likes: 0
From: NV
If I recall correctly, the Mustangs were penalized to carry the most weight and were always the heaviest cars in the field this year. Management obviously didn't want the Mustangs taking the championship again this year.
It's interesting how BC's position over there on FreshAlloy is the opposite of what he posted here in this thread.... He likes stirring the pot I guess?
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Yeah! I like how BC copied and pasted on the FreshAlloy.com forum my post from way back in June about what the MTC Tech director said about the Grand Am Cup Mustang's handling. It even still has my red highlighting in it.
Among import lovers, I'm much more inclined to defend the Mustang against ignorant, sweeping attacks, of which I'm sure you've noticed there are many.
See...and you thought I hated Ford and Mustangs. Now you know better.
Hope you're having a very Happy Holiday Season!