Saw this from another thread...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/idealbb/...&searchstring=

Um....Ford?

 

Saleen: Oh dear, if there's any truth to this, and it does sound plausible, Ford's really going to have to get "Bold" and step it up a few notches with the Stang in '09.

 

problem is that Camaro never really claimed to be one "for the masses" like the Mustang has always been, and I could easily bet the 480 hp Maro mentioned here will easily be priced high 40k which gives it a good 15k above the GT which it will likely be compared to.

Sad that Saleen is going to the dark side... Can't even start to imagine having a LS in the S7

Peter Hatch

 

interesting...

 

Important point to remember, Mr Saleen does not own the company anymore.
He's still the title of CEO/President, but must answer to the money people of Hancock Park Associates,
the actual owners of Saleen.

If working with GM will make them more money, thats what they will do.

 

If you read last month's Hotrod Magazine you will see that Saleen built the 2007 Camaro that is being used in the Transformers movie. They talk about the "close relationship" the company had with GM

It seems as though Saleen Corp is trying to broaden their horizons. If you think about it though, it would be cool to have 2 Saleen Extremes that are completely different cars.

 

maybe the chebby boys will know what it's like to be infested by the gill squad now

 

B) :P

 

Amen. And as a result they won't be selling nearly as many Camaros as Ford is selling Mustangs. But I think Ford will have to step up the numbers on any SE's coming out (5.4L NA ~ 450HP maybe?).

 

Not quite sure what that means as I always thought the Camaro going for pretty much the very same market and demographics as the Stang.

That the Camaro will be priced significantly higher than the Stang is, IMO, doubtful. While it might have more content (IRS, six speed vs five, etc.) it will also benefit, by dint of sharing most of its basic Zeta componentry, greater economies of scale than the bespoke Mustang chassis. Also, with the Stang and the Challenger in the fray, there really won't be much ability to stray far, pricewise. I would imagine the Camaro will stay within a grand or two of a comparable Stang. GM managed to keep the Solstice/Sky in the low to mid twenties, despite a higher level of engineering content than the Stang, so it looks like GM has the will and capability to be bullish on price.

It is also fallacy to automatically equate lower price with higher value. If the Camaro does come to be with significanly higher engineering and other content, then it may well represent a superior value even at a somewhat higher price.

 

I think the biggest hole in your argument here is your assumption that a more impressive spec sheet will inherently make for a better car. Example? You cite the low price point of the Kappa twins despite their level of engineering....backbone frames, etc. On paper this all looks great. In the real world the Miata, which is a far more conventional design in terms of chassis layout, is easily the better car and better sports car. Heck, it's even the the lighter sports car despite the above-mentioned frame design the Kappa's use, which is generally touted as a weight saver.

The Kappa's are good looking, cheap, and decent sports cars if a bit on the porky side to employ the design that they do. In most real-world respect they are fairly compromised cars. They possess way too much mass as I just mentioned, no room for luggage despite their size and weight, prices that aren't as much good as they initially appear (cheap Solstices are strippers plain and simple), and a suspension that is promising on paper and at 8/10ths, but doesn't seem quite sorted out when pushed. Put more simply all the advantages the Kappa's "wow factor" engineering are supposed to provide exist almost soley on those spec sheets when compared to their primary competitor.

Sounds pretty much like what GM has been doing for some time now...if in a bit more attractive and innovative package this go-round. GM may bring more hp and a greater wow-factor to the Camaro's spec sheet initially, but in my experience they virtually always make you pay for those benefits somewhere else. And frankly, I see nothing which GM currently produces that would indicate those days are gone.

 

And everyone thinks Roush just does work for Ford too right?
and SLP was GM only?

<buzzer> WRONG....

 

I certainly won't argue that the Kappa cars are anywhere near perfect, especially in the fine points of their execution, but the basic engineering content is certainly there awaiting a defter hand of the engineers in their final tuning, which really is critical in determining how well a car goes fast vs simply how fast a car will go. The Miata is a great example of this. The basic engineering is certainly very good, but it is the finesse and sophistication of the final tuning that really sets it apart.

Unfortunately, this is an area where domestic manufacturs often are rather ham-handed and tone deaf. Once they get good test numbers, and a reasonable level of finesse, they sort of say good enough -- "more fussing won't make the quatifyable numbers any better, so why waste more time and money...". Mazda with the Miata, on the other hand, take an almost metaphysical approach to getting everything to work together just so and giving the driver such a rewarding drive that transcends the hard numbers. BMW is also very good at this with the engineers spending a huge amount of time tuning the cars, resulting in cars that are sublime to drive, even if the numbers aren't any better than much cheaper cars.

Basically, the GM and DC challengers look like they'll have the engineering potential to be supurb cars, but as with every vehicle, the actuality will depend greatly on the final execution. And Ford will have a big chance to polish the Stang's rough edges, fill in its weak points and further enhance its capabilities to meet that challenge -- the potential is certainly there too.

In any case, all this will be a boon for us car nuts!

 

Additionally, the new Camaro's engineering is being undertaken by Holden in Australia. They provided the new Zeta architecture, and they're working on the engineering of the car, too. Make no mistake about it, Holden builds some impressive performance cars Down Under.

Apparently, GM also has key design staff in Australia helping to make sure the production Camaro looks as good as the concept.

And given Bob Lutz's current obsession with interior quality and design, look for the Camaro to be an improvement in this regard, too.

Ford will need to up their game significantly or they'll be caught flat-footed, and if they're smart, they'd be wise not to wait until 2009. The next SE should get there first in '08, IMHO.

And yes, I'm shamelessly pushing for a 400 HP Bullitt again with improved suspension and handling dynamics that would turn it into a true "canyon carver," giving it a different raison d'etre than that of its big brother, the GT500.

 

While Australia working on the car is promising dynamically this makes me wonder about price again. When discussing the idea of a LS2-powered Camaro based on Zeta what you really end up talking about is a newer version of what the Monaro/GTO was....and that was a 34k car despite it's agre. Yes it was imported from Australia, but MX5's manage to make it all the way from Japan without getting the pricing jacked so the pricing issue involved more than simply country of origin.

I just find it hard to believe that the Camaro is going to be the rolling equivelant of judgement day some think it will be. GM has always delivered speed at a cost, wether the buyer paid for it in money, quality, or both. Striking a balance between cost, performance, and quality/usability has never been GM's strongpoint with even the Vette and new Kappa twins suffering from that inability in their own ways.

The previously mentioned, updated 400hp GTO was about as close as GM ever got to finding that magical compromise..and even it missed the mark with a botched launch and incredibly non-descript styling. The Camaro may be the car that proves GM can accomplish this feat...but I ain't calling it 'til I see it.

 

Folks at GM have stated that the Gen 5 F bod has to/will beat mustang at every level/point for a few bucks more.

 

Yes, but my point is that the above is what GM always says. Maybe this time they really will accomplish this feat, but like I said above...I'll believe it when I see it.