As some of you know, I just got a 1969 Olds Cutlass.

I'm having problems with the brakes.

The pedal goes all the way to the floor, all the time, hence the brakes no worky. I've been troubleshooting and "throwing" parts at it all week. but NOTHING is working.

Any advice or ideas as to the problem would be greatly appreciated.

Here's some history:

(Power brake system)

Bled the brakes - it didn't help.

Pads/rotors on front are good. Shoes/drums on rear are good. Plenty of pad/shoe wear left.

Replaced front brake lines (they were wearing out).

Adjusted rear brake shoes (the drums came off too easily, so I snugged them up).

Replaced Master Cylinder - Bench bled the cylinder as per instructions, R & R'd it, bled the brakes again - it didn't work.

Only thing left I can think of is the Power Booster assy - I have one on the way. Vacuum line to Booster is fine and suction is there.

Anybody have any ideas of what it could be? Or what's causing it?

I don't see any leaks in the system anywhere.

HELP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Clutch Slave cylinder?

 

when you pump the pedal, does it still go to the floor.

 

Yes, the pedal goes all the way to the floor.

I pump 3 x times and on the 4th I hold it, but it goes all the way down on the hold pump too. Although the pedal goes all the way down and I hold it there, there is still pressure in the system for bleeding out the air and old fluid.

I'm racking my brain on this. Something doesn't make sense. And it takes for ever for the pedal to come back up after I release my foot from it.

 

Just checkin... you're not losing fluid at all, right?

Ok, that means that the pressure's being lost somewhere, but the system is still sealed.

Let's think about this:

Pedal
Brake Lever
Rod
Booster
Master Cylinder
*Proportion valve
Lines to various calipers/master cylinders

Front brakes:
Lines to brake hose
caliper or master cylinder

Rear brakes
Lines to master cylinder or caliper

In order of likelihood. the * means 'maybe' on that valve.

Now.. in that chain... what would *possibly* lose the pressure.

Booster, if it's a diaphragm issue, maybe.

Master cylinder... leaky valve assembly. Also, proportioning valve in it (if equipped) could be shoved one way or the other... may have to recenter it, but the brake light would be on...right?

Hard lines are unlikely to flex, but the brake hose might be bulging... have you checked that? I saw you replaced lines... I'm assuming that's what you meant, but bein' sure.

Caliper or master cylinder issue.

Not much else, but I'm not a brake specialist. Still, if all is well, there's really no reason for this to be the case.

Are you testing with the car off or on? If it's off, it should get a hard pedal pretty quickly.

Ah... here's some info from a Blazer site.. google is mah friendzor:

"The pedal going to the floor is air in the system or a faulty hydraulic component.
To test booster function start the car and pump the pedal a couple of times,shut the car off,pump the pedal again,you should get 2-3 pedal pumps before the pedal gets hard,with your foot still on the pedal start the vehicle and the pedal will drop,if all of this happens the booster is good.
Note : A master cylinder that is leaking from the rear will allow brake fluid to enter the booster and will damage the booster diapram."

So... that's what I can do... talk a lot, plagerize others, and be on my way, hoping I did something to help in some way... even if it's to sympathize.

Oh, and may I say, what a pretty car that is!

 

I say rebleed the system. You replaced a few parts and probably have more air in there than you think. How are you bleeding your brakes?

 

Thanks, I'll try the Booster Check and then do another Bleed of it all.

For bleeding, my Son pumps 3 x and holds - then I crack the valve and close, repeat about 5-8 times on each wheel until I get clear/steady fluid (clear tube connected so I can see).

Started at farthest away. Refilling with fluid after every wheel.

I have a new Booster w/Master cylinder enroute from Auto zone, but it will be next week bedore it arrives (Military in Germany, takes forever to get parts shipped).

I just did notice some brake fluid "trickling" out the bottom of the master cylinder where it attaches to the booster. I'll pull it off and check that it's seated properly and try again.

Thanks for your time in providing this info for me - back to the car for another try.

Tom

 

good luck man its half the fun just werking on them

 

Brakes aside, that Cutlass looks dang near mint.

Very nice find!

 

Thanks - Conditon-wise, it's great?

Here's an engine pic.

Once I break the code on fixing the brakes, I can start working off the little issues: Everything is leaking. Transmission pan, oil filter, differential, water pump to thermostat hose, power steering, etc.

 

Yeah, I guess these sorts of glitches are to be expected, given the car's age.

BTW, I just came across this. What do you think?

 

Whoa! - Where'd you find those pics?

That's awesome!

The only difference is: I have a rollbar and round mirrors, he has square mirrors (I wonder which is correct).

Do you have any link or POC info on the person or website?

I would love to speak with him/her about the car.

Tom

 

Disregard the POC info, I saw your link after I hit sent.

After looking it over there's a Whole lot of differences.

Too many to mention. I'm curious what it will sell at?

I'm guessing $15K at least.

I also noticed he has Manual brakes (no power booster).

Thanks for the heads up!

 

The square mirrors would be period correct for that car, though your round ones look WAY better, I have to say.

I'm pretty sure ALL of those GM midsize cars from that period automatically came with power brakes. Plus they would have been too big and heavy to operate without power steering and brakes.

Your car looks nice, though!

I dunno what this WI car will go for. I think $15K is a bit steep. Doubt it will sell for past $10K, but I could be wrong.

I'm a bit tempted myself...

 

I had a 1970 Pontiac wagon with manual steering and brakes.
So they weren't all power equipped.
Yeah, it wasn't easy to steer and stop.

 

Hmmm...didn't know that.

Well, I wouldn't even consider a car of that size and weight without power steering and brakes. Not with today's traffic volumes.

 

UPDATE -

I got the new Power Booster (with new Master Cylinder).

Put it on, bled everything - the brake pedal felt better/stronger, but still not to standard.

Did some hard looking - found "seepage" from the two front brake hoses (installed new last week).
Figured out that if routed through the normal "bracketed" area of the caliper, it wasn't seating right.
So repositioned them about 90 deg. - that didn't work, now they are leaking more than before.

It's getting too dark now, so I'll tackle it in the morning.

Figure a good nights sleep, daylight, I'll pull the front tires to get better access. Then try to figure out the mystery of the leaking (brand-new) brake hoses.

Any more advice on dealing with the front brake hoses? The lower attachment at caliper? Any rule of thumb for positioning? I know the hose has alittle hole that runs smack into the mounting bolt and theres a copper looking washer on top and bottom of the fitting. It just doesn't make sense to me that the hoses would be leaking when everything looks flush and tight and lined up correctly.

Wish me luck in the morning.

Tom

 

Back to that eBay Cutlass again for a sec (sorry to change the subject from your mechanical issue)...

So I spoke to the guy who is selling that '69 Cutlass vert on eBay. He claims it definitely has power steering and brakes - and he's hoping to get $20K for it, even though a local GM dealer offered him $12.5K.

With only about 18 hours left, the offers haven't even hit $10K yet, despite 13 bids. I seriously doubt it'll even reach $15K, never mind $20K. He asked me what I was prepared to pay, and I told him. He then indicated that if the auction doesn't reach the amount I'm prepared to pay, that he might be interested in talking again. Which makes me wonder just how set on, or deserving of, $20K he really is.

My only misgivings about the car are that there’s no way to determine original ownership, declarations (if any), original miles on the engine, matching numbers, etc. Moreover, it’s not a special edition, like a Hurst-Olds 442, nor even a regular 442...nor does it have the bucket seats and console-mounted transmission. All of the aforementioned are of importance to serious collectors and will impact the bidding amount.

Those things aside, it is in beautiful cosmetic shape (no rust, straight and true frame, etc.) and solid working mechanical order.

Interesting...

 

I paid 12K for mine and another 2500 to get it shipped over here to germany.

If I can get these brakes working, then it's worth it to me.

I used to have a 70 Cutlass S Holiday coupe and LOVED working on it.

 

I'm going outside to work on the hoses now.

Are those front brake hoses designed to line up only one way?