Airwolf

We need higher quality products and less union complaining. Unions have probably been the cause of all the factory lay offs and close downs, because the workers get 30 dollars an hour to turn a wrench, i work at a ford dealership, selling parts, maintaining our network, all the computers, and our security system, and i don't get half that.

kevinb120

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rampant @ February 18, 2006, 1:24 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Interesting way of looking at it. Does that make Chrylser a German company then? And where does that leave brands such as Mazda, Volvo, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Vauxhaul, and Holden?

Here is another interesting question: which helps out America more: 200,000 jobs to build cars where the profits go to to foreign held company, or a U.S. company who gets profits from outside-border production?
(banefit workers vs. benefit shareholders)

I contend there is no such thing as a nationality to an auto maker these days. It is a global enterprise through and through.
[/b][/quote]

The answer is actually B. Protecting our import-export ratios will do much more for us in the long run then simply turning us into a country of assemblers for other nation's profits. Korea exported over 500,000 vehicles to the US last year, and only imported 7000 US made vehicles. This is how Toyota is squeezing the entire American auto industry into submission, by having advantages at every point in the game. If they had a more even export/input ratio, there would be MANY more American vehicles being exported there, or the costs of doing business would be raised enough to keep their products from as competitive as they are.

Our Congressmen selling out our country is 'short term' for their elections(job 'creation') and padding their pockets and killing American business in the long run-not to mention the workers are allowed to work for less wages, less benefits, and no legacy costs. If say, in 50 years, Toyota is having trouble paying all its pensions here, they would kill off every factory and build them in Mexico instead. NO legacy costs in this country, and very little shipping/import costs with no labor unions= a FREE RIDE for them. AND taxpayer money pays a good part for these factories to be built, up to $80,000 PER JOB. And don't get on the 'fair and free' trade bs, THEY are NOT playing fair to the US in any way, shape, or form. We are heavily handicapped, and all the money NOT being made not only closes factories, but kills R&D money. Looking at today’s snapshot in time shows NOTHING of the long term effects(which is the reason for the 60%+ sheer waste in government spending of our tax dollars to start with-its a huge get rich quick scheme). "well I will be fine for MY lifetime" is the theme of our politicians and their offshore tax sheltered accounts.

That so many people think the JOBS working for the Japanese are more important is very scary. And that we are in such a ME-NOW nation instead of forward-thinking as a whole is the Baby Boomer generation’s continued destruction of this nation.


And I just read an article how Toyota is America's most admired automaker. They admire the way they are turning us into a Malaysia to cheaply assemble thier cars, and on top of that BE THIER NUMBER ONE CUSTOMER. The US is Toyota's SUCKERS. At least people in Malaysia are not stupid enough to pay $150 for a pair of Nike's that they got paid $0.05 to make.

vyto2

You nailed it kev! Been that way for a long time too. Never bought japanese, never will. Their cars are based on gadgets instead of performance. They used to try to imitate other car companies style. Then they had to hire californian designers to make their stuff even look decent. Our cars had our own national style, they looked american. Now GM is even trying to imitate the japanese, look at most of chevy's line up, look like toyotas.

Same crap they pulled on our steel industry. They'd tax the heck out of ours being imported to them. They'd buy our raw materials, make lower grade steel cheaper than us and sell it back to us. Nearly destroyed all our home made steel industry. Maybe they need another visit from a B-52... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrinjester.gif[/img]

Rampant

So, let me get this straight. You guys are saying it is better for the American economy if a U.S.-based company has no jobs here (outside a HQ), but is profitable, correct? But, in that case, who really benefits? Where does the money really end up? Isn't it the hands of the shareholders and a few at the top? How does that help our economy as a whole -- not to mention our people on an individual level? And, wouldn't those same shareholders benefit just as much if the company was overseas? Does it really matter to them where the HQ is?

I know it is a gross over-simplification, but really, what am I missing?
Don't we need BOTH -- stong companies and a lot of jobs?

I know we are a service-based economy and all that, but as I see it, I can't help but think having a lot of jobs inside our borders is a good thing. I mean, all those workers need to live somewhere. And eat. And buy clothes. And that means more companies and more jobs to support them. And the cycle continues. So, all that money gets filtered through the entire economy. How is that a bad thing?

Also, let's not forget why American car companies are in this mess in the first place -- the competition made better cars (better, as in they attracted the greatest number of buyers). Period. We can't blame the competition for being better than us. As hard to admit as that is.

But, the good news is we just have to make better cars and things will start to turn around. (granted, how that happens is a much more complex answer).

bob

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rampant @ February 23, 2006, 10:57 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
But, the good news is we just have to make better cars and things will start to turn around. (granted, how that happens is a much more complex answer).[/b][/quote]

Better as in how? euro/asian wanna be photocopies? That might work in america - no scratch that, the US is producing cars that are on par and in some instances out pacing the competition in intial quality surveys, but people still cling to thier worn out "anywhere but the US is better" mantra. You can even see that on this website when the IRS/SRA clans clash.

Vermillion98

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bob @ February 26, 2006, 1:28 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Better as in how? euro/asian wanna be photocopies? That might work in america - no scratch that, the US is producing cars that are on par and in some instances out pacing the competition in intial quality surveys, but people still cling to thier worn out "anywhere but the US is better" mantra. You can even see that on this website when the IRS/SRA clans clash.
[/b][/quote]
I agree with you. Americans have burned into their brains "American=crap". It's as if America has this inferiority complex, where Americans feel that every other country in the world makes better products then Americans can. This is especially true of automobiles. There's too many people watching and listening to European and Japanese commentators on cars, and mindlessly believing what they say and taking it as gospel.
Some Americans won't even look past their stereotypes even though they haven't owned American car, they just say "Oh everybody says they're junk" and "Detroit need to build better cars".
here's an interesting article

How long can the US go on believing we as a nation can't manufacture anything worthwhile, that we don't have intelligent engineers, that we are stupid? Did Japan as a nation get where it is now in manufacturing by it's citizens believing it's products are crap?

Shea

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Vermillion98 @ February 27, 2006, 1:31 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
How long can the US go on believing we as a nation can't manufacture anything worthwhile, that we don't have intelligent engineers, that we are stupid? [/b][/quote]

As long as people are too stupid (or lazy is probably more the case here) to research the products they buy.

vistablue mustang

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Airwolf @ February 17, 2006, 12:02 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
One things for sure, i'll never buy or drive a foreign car. Doesn't matter if GM, Ford, or Chrysler go bankrupt someday, I love this country, and i love our cars. I'll be driving a domestic for the rest of my life, nothing will change that.
[/b][/quote]

My family has bought imports since 1999, including my self. My first new car was a 2003 Toyota Tacoma. Needless to say I will NOT buy imports again [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif[/img] . My family has had some major and minor issues with our Toyotas and now being the proud owner of a Mustang I will never go back, as I speak we are looking to buy an Explorer over a 4runner. I am proud to support this country [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/04.gif[/img]

Zastava_101

I respect Japanese cars, but I probably would never buy one.

scottie1113

Did you see that Consumer Reports today released their list of the top cars--and the first nine were Japanese? Hmmmm. We've still got some work to do. Most people view cars as appliances, like refrigerators and washing machines, and they value quality and reliability much more highly than they value the fun quotient.

One of the lowest rated cars was Porsche, and I suspect that is because Porsche drivers are very picky about any and so called defects, however minor. Nonetheless, they sell every car they build and always will, but they appeal to a small niche market.

Ford tries to sell across the board. You'd best believe that the higher ups in Dearborn are talking about the article today. This is not a question of perceived quality. This is quantified. Unless Ford can close the gap their future does not look bright, and that is sad.

Vermillion98

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(scottie1113 @ March 2, 2006, 9:57 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Did you see that Consumer Reports today released their list of the top cars--and the first nine were Japanese? Hmmmm. We've still got some work to do. Most people view cars as appliances, like refrigerators and washing machines, and they value quality and reliability much more highly than they value the fun quotient.
[/b][/quote]
I agree with you there.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(scottie1113 @ March 2, 2006, 9:57 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
One of the lowest rated cars was Porsche, and I suspect that is because Porsche drivers are very picky about any and so called defects, however minor. Nonetheless, they sell every car they build and always will, but they appeal to a small niche market.
[/b][/quote]
It's interesting that Porsche gets a "pass" from you even though they were low rated by CR. Do you really think that Porsche owners would be more picky about minor defects? It seems to me they would be more likely to "gloss over" defects due to brand loyalty and not wanting to admit they bought an expensive "prestige" brand that has defects. Then again, how many People who buy Porsches are going to be CR subscribers? CR subscribers are probably more likely to buy a Camry.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(scottie1113 @ March 2, 2006, 9:57 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Ford tries to sell across the board. You'd best believe that the higher ups in Dearborn are talking about the article today. This is not a question of perceived quality. This is quantified. Unless Ford can close the gap their future does not look bright, and that is sad.
[/b][/quote]
JD Powers surveysare quantified as well, and most domestic brands , including Ford, are above average reliability. Consumer Reports survey finding's are questionable. They only poll their subscribers. If a person is a Consumer Reports subscriber, they wil have a low opinion of ,& most likely not buy a car that is not recommended by Consumer Reports in the first place, i.e. domestics .

Link to Detroit News Article about CR recommendation

In the article, they talk about how the new Honda Civic ,which is unproven and has had 2 recalls at launch unseated the Ford Focus from their small sedan "Top Picks" list. Then the CR official claims that Ford "has had trouble with new vehicle launches lately" Which Ford vehicle launched lately had trouble? Sounds like perception or bias to me...

scottie1113

You make some good points. Yes, I think Porsche owners are very finicky about their cars and tend to report every minor defect they encounter. Have you ever driven a Porsche or known an owner? I have. They're great cars for what they are intended for, and owners tend to be very **** retentive. They nitpick every little thing in the hope that Porsche will hear them and improve the cars. And guess what? It works. Drive one and you'll know what I mean. But then, we're talking about $70K cars and owners expect a lot. Justifiably so. I think the same is true of Jaguar owners.

Remember that these surveys address problems in new cars in the first 90 days and a minor glitch in a stereo system will show up as a defect and will have the same impact on the survey as something major. I'm a lot more interested in problems encountered a long way down the road.

The most trouble free car I ever owned was a 1986 Toyota MR2. Until my beloved ex wife drove it off into the sunset at 70,000 miles it was the most trouble free car I've owned. Nothing broke except the inside trunk release cable. BFD. Minor tuneup at 30K, major tuneup at 60K, and other than for oil and filter changes it was never in the shop.

I've been driving since 1964. Nothing has ever come close to that MR2 for reliablity, but a couple have bettered it for fun, specifically an Alfa Spider and my SN95 Mustang. Neither will win win any awards for quality or reliabilty, though the Mustang was better in those departments, but that didn't discourage me from buying either one. I'd buy another one tomorrow, especially if I can find a good 67-74 GTV this year in Europe.

I like niche market cars, as do most of us here, but we're not going to keep Ford alive with Mustang purchases. My point is only that Ford, GM, and DC have to address quality issues in the cars that mainstream America buys or they'll soon go the way of the dinosaurs.

Yes, MB was listed in CR as one of the most problematic cars. Does that hurt sales? Minimally. It's the prestige of the three pointed star that helps sell these cars in spite of their problems. Ford doesn't have the prestige so they've got to do a lot better. They know it, and I hope they will do it.

I could add a lot more, but this rant is long enough.

jgsmuzzy

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tiberius1701 @ February 16, 2006, 6:26 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Too bad for them-little tiny people who drive on little tiny roads like little tiny cars (Elise, Boxster). [/b][/quote]

Funny how you name two un-japanese cars........!!

I am not going to get into this topic too deep, but can understand the fears that the manufacturing industry is going to dissapear. It has done just that here, there are no major UK car brands anymore, and most manufacturing has been moved to eastern europe of the far east. What you have to remember is that this will come full circle. The only reason that labour is cheap in developing markets is just that. The markets are developing. Average salaries in the Czech republic have risen by about 75% over the last 5 years. That trend cannot continue and we will get the manufacturing jobs back eventually. Blind hope?? possibly

Hollywood_North GT

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(scottie1113 @ March 2, 2006, 9:46 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
The most trouble free car I ever owned was a 1986 Toyota MR2. Until my beloved ex wife drove it off into the sunset at 70,000 miles it was the most trouble free car I've owned. [/b][/quote]
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rollinglaugh.gif[/img]

Ex-wives notwithstanding, Toyota quality is a fact. It's also a fact that they are a juggernaut that the North American automakers MUST contend with immediately - or face extinction. I was just reading the latest Road & Track today, and the Japanese have SEVERAL new high-po sports coupes coming in the next two years, and they're going to be pretty potent and pretty formidable.

Now, a word about Consumer Reports. An utterly worthless crap magazine. The same group of guys test everything from microwaves to marshmallows, and know very little about either. I remember reading a camera review many years ago (something I know a GREAT deal about) and they nitpicked a particular model for a couple of insignifcant features that almost no photographer would ever use - and that any photographer worth his salt would be able to cope with EASILY. Funny thing is, most of the pro magazines rated the camera VERY highly, and I concurred, because I owned one and couldn't fathom what those amateurs at CR were whining about.

I think they trashed the '05 Mustang because it's not comfortable for four adults. Duh, do ya think...? Frakkin' geniuses them folks at CR. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]

trey

looks like they need another atomic bomb on their head =)

Hollywood_North GT

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Trey @ April 17, 2006, 4:24 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
looks like they need another atomic bomb on their head =)
[/b][/quote]
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eyebrow.gif[/img]

I'm just going to assume here that you're still too young to realize what a shameful remark that was. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_redface.gif[/img]

Zastava_101

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BC_Shelby @ March 8, 2006, 3:41 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Toyota quality is a fact.
[/b][/quote]

I know I always defended Toyota, but their quality is not as good as people think. I heard stories that they can last forever which are not true. My mom have '94 Camry 3.0L V6 with over 130,000 miles and there are always little things that doesn't work. We left it at Toyota dealer this morning and I just got phone call and its gonna cost us $850 to get it fixed + additional $650 to fix A/C.

Toyota's may be better than most of cars on the road, but they are not trouble-free really long.

PaulF

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Red Star @ April 18, 2006, 10:59 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I know I always defended Toyota, but their quality is not as good as people think. I heard stories that they can last forever which are not true. My mom have '94 Camry 3.0L V6 with over 130,000 miles and there are always little things that doesn't work. We left it at Toyota dealer this morning and I just got phone call and its gonna cost us $850 to get it fixed + additional $650 to fix A/C.

Toyota's may be better than most of cars on the road, but they are not trouble-free really long.
[/b][/quote]

Now, you are talking about a 12 year old car with over 130k miles on it....that's pretty darn good in my book!

Maybe I'm missing some sarcasm here or something....

My thinking is, if you are going to drop $1500 into a car that is 12 years old, you have to weigh that against a.) what the car is worth and b.) how much longer will it run after the repairs.

My biggest issue with Japanese cars is that to me, they all pretty much look the same. I don't think you are going to find a 2006 Honda Civic totally restored to concours quality going for $80,000 at Barrett-Jackson in 40 years, because they are just blah cars.

Zastava_101

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PaulF @ April 18, 2006, 9:41 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Now, you are talking about a 12 year old car with over 130k miles on it....that's pretty darn good in my book!

Maybe I'm missing some sarcasm here or something....

My thinking is, if you are going to drop $1500 into a car that is 12 years old, you have to weigh that against a.) what the car is worth and b.) how much longer will it run after the repairs.

My biggest issue with Japanese cars is that to me, they all pretty much look the same. I don't think you are going to find a 2006 Honda Civic totally restored to concours quality going for $80,000 at Barrett-Jackson in 40 years, because they are just blah cars.
[/b][/quote]

I did a lot of research on Camry and majority of people said that Camry can last easily 200,000+ miles without any major problems. So my dad and I bought Camry from my mom 3 years ago and since then there are always little problems. Nothing major, but I don't find this '94 Camry 3.0L mechanically any better than my old '91 Taurus 3.0L. Its just not what I expected.