Journalist to GOP: You're 100 Percent Wrong About U.S. Automakers
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
You just don't get it! Bankruptcy by GM is curtains for the American ecomomy PERIOD!! There is a fantastic editorial on the cover of this week's Automotive News. Its a great read!! The fallout if GM were to declare would be over 1 million jobs lost, just from that (this includes GM workers in corporate, factories, dealers, and GMAC)! Then you have the major suppliers, who would have no one to supply parts to, and they would close. a few of the companies are Johnson Controls, Delphi, Lear, etc. They can't survive without GM gone. Then you have the suppliers to the suppliers. The range of lost jobs are rumored to be in the 2 million range, give or take! Unemployment would rise to over 10%, its highest number in years and years! And even in the article, they say bankruptcy for re-structuring won't happen either, as it would lead to Chapter 7 liquidity! ITS BAD if this happens!!!
When I get to work, I'll get the subscription number from our copy of Auto News, and I'll copy the article. Its a site that is really restricted but I can download a copy of the article.
When I get to work, I'll get the subscription number from our copy of Auto News, and I'll copy the article. Its a site that is really restricted but I can download a copy of the article.
Number Cruncher
Joined: July 19, 2005
Posts: 505
Likes: 0
Two million plus jobs lost and and 10 percent (or more)unemployment is BAD!
Extremely bad for GM, their subs, and their suppliers.
However, I don't believe it is "curtains for the American economy".
I have faith that even if GM goes under, their support companies will be flexible enough to explore options and establish themselves in other markets.
It's the American way.
It will be interesting to see your Auto News article though.
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Well, the Big 3 didn't make a very good case for why they SHOULD get help, I'll admit. Instead, they flew into Washington in corporate jets...round trip, $20,000 each. If they had taken regular economy class flights, $600.00 round trip.
They weren't too prudent. They should have taken commercial flights and made the case about how they're TRIMMING costs, streamlining the business and improving their products...not just talk doom and gloom about what will happen if they DON'T get the money.
My personal feeling is that even though they have a strong case, they've shot themselves in the foot and will pay the ultimate price for their folly.
They weren't too prudent. They should have taken commercial flights and made the case about how they're TRIMMING costs, streamlining the business and improving their products...not just talk doom and gloom about what will happen if they DON'T get the money.
My personal feeling is that even though they have a strong case, they've shot themselves in the foot and will pay the ultimate price for their folly.
Last edited by Hollywood_North GT; Nov 19, 2008 at 11:50 PM.
Service Manager
Joined: June 29, 2004
Posts: 6,784
Likes: 625
From: Odenville, AL
Well, the Big 3 didn't make a very good case for why they SHOULD get help, I'll admit. Instead, they flew into Washington in corporate jets...round trip, $20,000 each. If they had taken regular economy class flights, $600.00 round trip.
They weren't too prudent. They should have taken commercial flights and made the case about how they're TRIMMING costs, streamlining the business and improving their products...not just talk doom and gloom about what will happen if they DON'T get the money.
My personal feeling is that even though they have a strong case, they've shot themselves in the foot and will pay the ultimate price for their folly.
They weren't too prudent. They should have taken commercial flights and made the case about how they're TRIMMING costs, streamlining the business and improving their products...not just talk doom and gloom about what will happen if they DON'T get the money.
My personal feeling is that even though they have a strong case, they've shot themselves in the foot and will pay the ultimate price for their folly.
I was going to bring this up but you beat me to it. I am sorry for those that support a bailout but if you can spend $20K to fly one executive to D.C. instead of putting him on Southwest for probably $400 or less round trip then screw these guys with their hands out! They obviously don't get the big picture and will just continue to blow ridiculous amounts of money frivolously.
A lot of people are screaming the sky is falling about a Bankruptcy but it worked for the airlines and it can work for the auto makers if done properly....the problem is the GROSS mismanagement as evidenced by the private jet trip above and UAW contracts. Bankruptcy would get them out of those contracts but that alone won't do it, they need to do what the rest of us average Americans are already doing and cut costs.....eat a box of Macaroni and Cheese for dinner, etc, etc. I'd bet everything I have that these Executives are still living the same high life they have been with no changes. I'm sorry but I don't have much if any sympathy for them right now.
Service Manager
Joined: June 29, 2004
Posts: 6,784
Likes: 625
From: Odenville, AL
I have friends that work there as well and they went months ago to a voluntary Friday off for their employees and have cut back in areas without laying anyone off to cope with the economy....I have yet to hear of any changes like that among the Big 3. I know there is an Emergency Plant meeting coming up at Honda in near future that they are worried about....not sure what will come of that.
Team Mustang Source
Joined: June 19, 2004
Posts: 6,840
Likes: 2
From: Phoenixville, PA
Unfortunately, I do get it.
Two million plus jobs lost and and 10 percent (or more)unemployment is BAD!
Extremely bad for GM, their subs, and their suppliers.
However, I don't believe it is "curtains for the American economy".
I have faith that even if GM goes under, their support companies will be flexible enough to explore options and establish themselves in other markets.
It's the American way.
It will be interesting to see your Auto News article though.
Two million plus jobs lost and and 10 percent (or more)unemployment is BAD!
Extremely bad for GM, their subs, and their suppliers.
However, I don't believe it is "curtains for the American economy".
I have faith that even if GM goes under, their support companies will be flexible enough to explore options and establish themselves in other markets.
It's the American way.
It will be interesting to see your Auto News article though.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 603
Likes: 0
they should not get any money unless the UAW agress to competitive wages. they can be better wages than what the import makers pay their workers, but not 2x better as they currently are. i don't know what the "new concessions" the UAW made are, but i'm worried if the 3 get the bailout money the UAW will be less willing to negotiate fair wages and compensations
Authorized Advertiser
Joined: September 6, 2006
Posts: 876
Likes: 0
[The UAW is calling for "no concessions."]
The UAW is one of the major problems with this industry. There was once a time for Unions but not so much anymore....they only serve the Union upper management first and the member second and they have successfully cut into the automakers deep enough to cause massive bleeding which will result in their death if not dealt with.
They showed that an auto worker makes $78 per hour in wages and benefits while at Toyota here in the U.S. they make $35 per hour. I am sorry but $78 per hour is ludicrous money for the job being done and completely unfair to the companies and the consumers....this is one reason cars are as expensive as they are today and one important reason why the Big 3 are in such trouble. A bailout only supports problems such as this and puts off an inevitable issue that needs to be dealt with. The Teamsters are corrupt and that's a fact proven time and again....they don't care about the company and they act like they care about the employees but the fact is they only use those employees as pawns for their benefit in the bigger scheme of things.
Look at the auto transport industry...one of the biggest auto transport companies roughly 6 months ago tried to make changes to survive with the high fuel prices and they went to the Union(Teamsters again) and asked them to help with some cutbacks temporarily so that they could weather the storm and keep the company alive....the same response came back as above "No Concessions!".....guess what? The company shut down completely and all those Union members lost their jobs....so just WHO's best interest do the teamsters have in mind? not their members obviously.
The UAW is one of the major problems with this industry. There was once a time for Unions but not so much anymore....they only serve the Union upper management first and the member second and they have successfully cut into the automakers deep enough to cause massive bleeding which will result in their death if not dealt with.
They showed that an auto worker makes $78 per hour in wages and benefits while at Toyota here in the U.S. they make $35 per hour. I am sorry but $78 per hour is ludicrous money for the job being done and completely unfair to the companies and the consumers....this is one reason cars are as expensive as they are today and one important reason why the Big 3 are in such trouble. A bailout only supports problems such as this and puts off an inevitable issue that needs to be dealt with. The Teamsters are corrupt and that's a fact proven time and again....they don't care about the company and they act like they care about the employees but the fact is they only use those employees as pawns for their benefit in the bigger scheme of things.
Look at the auto transport industry...one of the biggest auto transport companies roughly 6 months ago tried to make changes to survive with the high fuel prices and they went to the Union(Teamsters again) and asked them to help with some cutbacks temporarily so that they could weather the storm and keep the company alive....the same response came back as above "No Concessions!".....guess what? The company shut down completely and all those Union members lost their jobs....so just WHO's best interest do the teamsters have in mind? not their members obviously.
Cobra Member
Joined: May 16, 2006
Posts: 1,322
Likes: 0
From: NV
Here is a Bloomberg article about the GM- UAW contract renegotiations that happened in 2007
Among the more interesting points in the article:
So that $73 is actually worker's salary + benefits + cost of the pensions and retirees.
No worker at GM actually takes home $73 per hour in wages & benefits.
GM workers were making in 2007 about the same salary as Toyota's (a little more in benefits, though), BUT GM's cost is higher due mostly to the burden of pensions and retirees. See what happens when you are in business for a century and have lots of obligations for the workers who have served you and retired?
The renegotiations with the UAW last year got GM this deal:
So they buyout older workers making the higher salaries, and newly hired employees make less in wages and benefits than workers at Toyota's US plants. That's the story at GM, I'm still looking for more info on what happened between Ford and the UAW.
So you guys ranting about how much Detroit autoworkers make need to update your talking points. I'm not pro- or anti-union, I just want to set the record straight and I'm tired of seeing the same half-truths or old information being repeated over and over again.
Among the more interesting points in the article:
The Detroit-based automaker's [General Motors] current assembly workers get $31.75 an hour in pay,including overtime and bonuses, and $19.25 in benefits, according to an analysis by Laurie Harbour-Felax, president of Chicago-based Stout Risius Ross Inc. Adding pensions and other retiree costs raises the total to about $73.
No worker at GM actually takes home $73 per hour in wages & benefits.
Toyota's U.S. workers cost about $47.25 an hour, including $31.50 in pay and $15.75 in benefits, the study found. Toyota doesn't have additional expenses for retirees because so few of its U.S. factory employees have reached retirement.
The renegotiations with the UAW last year got GM this deal:
Under a four-year accord reached Sept. 26, all new employees would start in so-called non-core jobs such as janitorial and maintenance work and make about $28 an hour in pay and benefits, compared with $51 for present employees, the people said.
So you guys ranting about how much Detroit autoworkers make need to update your talking points. I'm not pro- or anti-union, I just want to set the record straight and I'm tired of seeing the same half-truths or old information being repeated over and over again.
Last edited by Vermillion06; Nov 20, 2008 at 10:40 AM.
Service Manager
Joined: June 29, 2004
Posts: 6,784
Likes: 625
From: Odenville, AL
Here is a Bloomberg article about the GM- UAW contract renegotiations that happened in 2007
Among the more interesting points in the article:
So that $73 is actually worker's salary + benefits + cost of the pensions and retirees.
No worker at GM actually takes home $73 per hour in wages & benefits.
GM workers were making in 2007 about the same salary as Toyota's (a little more in benefits, though), BUT GM's cost is higher due mostly to the burden of pensions and retirees. See what happens when you are in business for a century and have lots of obligations for the workers who have served you and retired?
The renegotiations with the UAW last year got GM this deal:
So they buyout older workers making the higher salaries, and newly hired employees make less in wages and benefits than workers at Toyota's US plants. That's the story at GM, I'm still looking for more info on what happened between Ford and the UAW.
So you guys ranting about how much Detroit autoworkers make need to update your talking points. I'm not pro- or anti-union, I just want to set the record straight and I'm tired of seeing the same half-truths or old information being repeated over and over again.
Among the more interesting points in the article:
So that $73 is actually worker's salary + benefits + cost of the pensions and retirees.
No worker at GM actually takes home $73 per hour in wages & benefits.
GM workers were making in 2007 about the same salary as Toyota's (a little more in benefits, though), BUT GM's cost is higher due mostly to the burden of pensions and retirees. See what happens when you are in business for a century and have lots of obligations for the workers who have served you and retired?
The renegotiations with the UAW last year got GM this deal:
So they buyout older workers making the higher salaries, and newly hired employees make less in wages and benefits than workers at Toyota's US plants. That's the story at GM, I'm still looking for more info on what happened between Ford and the UAW.
So you guys ranting about how much Detroit autoworkers make need to update your talking points. I'm not pro- or anti-union, I just want to set the record straight and I'm tired of seeing the same half-truths or old information being repeated over and over again.
I have a VERY strong doubt that the $31.75 INCLUDING Overtime and bonuses AND $19.25 in benefits for a take home check is accurate for a UAW worker....That means that they make $12.50/hr INCLUDING Overtime and bonuses when you remove the benefits....Doing the math that just doesn't add up....remove overtime and bonuses and that number decreases further and I KNOW these guys aren't making $8 or $9 an hour!
Mach 1 Member
Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 603
Likes: 0
i've got no problem with a skilled laborer making 70-80K a year with all benefits included, but the full pensions are really a killer when it comes to total costs. something has to happen there if it hasn't happened already—a competitive benefits plan. like i said, i don't mind if they make more than what the imports pay their workers, it may even result in better build quality, but the benefits package needs to evaluated so a UAW worker doesn't cost 2x
also getting paid f95% or not working, i don't know about that
also getting paid f95% or not working, i don't know about that
Team Mustang Source
Joined: September 16, 2005
Posts: 1,705
Likes: 2
From: Yatta-Abba, AL
Bankruptcy does NOT equal Extinction. It means Restructuring. ie., Unload Upper Management, Dump the perks and bonus plans, streamline employee work ethics, and formulate a plan for progress. Also it would allow Federal involvement with the Unions. Put all that together, and bankruptcy may not be a bad thing for them!!
Needs to be more Astony
Joined: October 4, 2004
Posts: 8,610
Likes: 5
From: Volo, IL
I have a VERY strong doubt that the $31.75 INCLUDING Overtime and bonuses AND $19.25 in benefits for a take home check is accurate for a UAW worker....That means that they make $12.50/hr INCLUDING Overtime and bonuses when you remove the benefits....Doing the math that just doesn't add up....remove overtime and bonuses and that number decreases further and I KNOW these guys aren't making $8 or $9 an hour!
Bullitt Member
Joined: June 21, 2005
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
They can go through all the bail out cash or bankruptsy and restructuring that they want, because if their public perception doesn't improve, then they won't ever get anywhere. The hatred of the Big 3 as become so deep rooted and engraved that no matter how great their cars are or will ever be, the general public isn't going to give them the time of day or will just look at them through the same foreign-tinted lenses that they have now. I'm not saying that their past failures haven't warranted a great deal of that hatred, but a lot of people harbor some pretty harsh feelings towards them, even when they have absolutely no experience in owning a single vehicle from any of the Big 3. People haven't been buying into anything great that they have to say about the new products that they're putting out, nor will they anytime soon. They need to find a way to reverse this perception problem, and as much as they need that bail out cash, this whole debacle with Congress isn't helping their perception either. It's just become a lose lose situation.
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
Joined: February 1, 2004
Posts: 3,751
Likes: 0
Bankruptcy does NOT equal Extinction. It means Restructuring. ie., Unload Upper Management, Dump the perks and bonus plans, streamline employee work ethics, and formulate a plan for progress. Also it would allow Federal involvement with the Unions. Put all that together, and bankruptcy may not be a bad thing for them!!
B: Even in Chapter 11, you're hurting others. Suppliers who rely on the Big Three contracts could have the outstanding money owed to them by the Big Three wiped out by a Detroit Bankruptcy, which would put them in Bankruptcy. And that could end up dereailing ALL US vehicle manufacturing.
Cobra Member
Joined: May 16, 2006
Posts: 1,322
Likes: 0
From: NV
An interesting item about Ford/Mulally from a Money/CNN article:
The rest of the article is here
Mulally's been to the Hill, too, but he has publicly said that Ford doesn't need bail-out cash. He's there because if GM or Chrysler goes down the cascading financial impact would be bad for the entire industry.
The rest of the article is here
Service Manager
Joined: June 29, 2004
Posts: 6,784
Likes: 625
From: Odenville, AL
Maybe so but the way it is written alludes to that which is why I questioned it. Still I think $31.75/hour is ridiculous money for what a lot of those guys do....there is no "Skilled labor" in putting bolts in or attaching components. "Skilled labor" would require that you have actual "Skills" like a bodyman or a painter and there are a lot of those guys that don't make that kind of money and then there are some that do but the ability to use basic God given motor functions doesn't mean you deserve that kind of salary.
Service Manager
Joined: June 29, 2004
Posts: 6,784
Likes: 625
From: Odenville, AL
A: You can't do any of that without money. Usually, going into Chapter 11 you get special bankruptcy lending to sustain you through restructuring. But NOBODY is putting up that kind of money right now except the US government. Without cash to operate during Chapter 11, you end up in Chapter 7: Liquidation.
B: Even in Chapter 11, you're hurting others. Suppliers who rely on the Big Three contracts could have the outstanding money owed to them by the Big Three wiped out by a Detroit Bankruptcy, which would put them in Bankruptcy. And that could end up dereailing ALL US vehicle manufacturing.
B: Even in Chapter 11, you're hurting others. Suppliers who rely on the Big Three contracts could have the outstanding money owed to them by the Big Three wiped out by a Detroit Bankruptcy, which would put them in Bankruptcy. And that could end up dereailing ALL US vehicle manufacturing.
So just how long do you keep throwing money at a failing business before you give up?!? Throwing money at GM isn't going to fix them, it is going to delay the inevitable....in the end there is going to be losses....do you deal with it now or do you just keep bailing water from a ship that is missing half it's hull?!?
As a taxpayer I am not willing to fund a mismanaged business and as a business owner I want to know who is going to bail me out if I need it?.....Nobody! So we should just throw money at this because they have overextended themselves, mismanaged the company and the UAW is bleeding them dry?!?
IF there is going to be ANY assistance then there needs to be some severe strings attached and some forced changes and that includes primarily the UAW Union followed by management changes and some serious effort to slim things down.
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
Joined: February 1, 2004
Posts: 3,751
Likes: 0
So just how long do you keep throwing money at a failing business before you give up?!? Throwing money at GM isn't going to fix them, it is going to delay the inevitable....in the end there is going to be losses....do you deal with it now or do you just keep bailing water from a ship that is missing half it's hull?!?
As a taxpayer I am not willing to fund a mismanaged business and as a business owner I want to know who is going to bail me out if I need it?.....Nobody! So we should just throw money at this because they have overextended themselves, mismanaged the company and the UAW is bleeding them dry?!?
IF there is going to be ANY assistance then there needs to be some severe strings attached and some forced changes and that includes primarily the UAW Union followed by management changes and some serious effort to slim things down.
As a taxpayer I am not willing to fund a mismanaged business and as a business owner I want to know who is going to bail me out if I need it?.....Nobody! So we should just throw money at this because they have overextended themselves, mismanaged the company and the UAW is bleeding them dry?!?
IF there is going to be ANY assistance then there needs to be some severe strings attached and some forced changes and that includes primarily the UAW Union followed by management changes and some serious effort to slim things down.
Last edited by Moosetang; Nov 20, 2008 at 03:41 PM.