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Old 2/3/16, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Coyote5-0 View Post
By my own standards and the standards of popular automotive journals that give several GM vehicles very positive remarks and awards. For instance, the 2016 Camaro and 2014 CTS won Motor Trend's Car of The Year.

People that criticize GM and Chrysler for taking bail outs have no idea what would have happened to the industry if they hadn't. GM is a MUCH better company today because of it.

I thought the purpose of the bailouts was to prevent filing bankruptcy. They took the money and still filed. Seems like they could have done that without my tax dollars.
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Old 2/3/16, 01:24 PM
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New to me or new in general?

I also spent some time with the '16 Camaro at the DC auto show and was pretty impressed. I had rented a '10 Camaro and was appalled by the lack of visibility. Could not get comfortable driving it at all. I think the sightlines with the '16 are a little better, and overall it's a fantastic car. I couldn't get passed the really chintzy hard plastic on the door sills that carried over the top of the dash; this would always be in my field of vision and it would annoy me in a $40k car.

I still think the '15+ Mustang interior is better, but man you wouldn't have to twist my arm much to convince me on a '16 Camaro SS with mag ride.

With all that said...

I LOVED the Cadillac ATS-V coupe. It felt like a well-tailored suit inside; I never felt as comfortable or at home in my Mustang. The only negative to me is the dash with the lack of *****. Otherwise, it's the ****.

Oh, and you don't have to dig far into any car company's past to find shenanigans. If you want to take the high moral ground, you'd have nothing left to choose from.
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Old 2/3/16, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SpectreH View Post
I thought the purpose of the bailouts was to prevent filing bankruptcy. They took the money and still filed. Seems like they could have done that without my tax dollars.
That's not at all what happened lol. You should look into what happened.
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Old 2/3/16, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Coyote5-0 View Post
By my own standards and the standards of popular automotive journals that give several GM vehicles very positive remarks and awards. For instance, the 2016 Camaro and 2014 CTS won Motor Trend's Car of The Year.
Motor Trend's COTY has everything to do with evaluating an automobile and nothing to do with a political position. I don't recall any automotive publication editorializing to any significant degree the merits or downsides of the government bailouts or "cash for clunkers". They largely remained neutral and reported on what they do best....as it should be. I don't read conservative political publications to get an opinion on an auto's performance.

My issue is not about quality. I'm sure the Camaro and CTS are well built cars which offer varying combinations of comfort, performance and reliability to those who choose to own one. I choose not to. So do many others.

I do take issue with the use of the word 'ignorant' when describing a person's opinion because it differs from someone else's. Our opinions can be based on facts, emotions, preferences or personal experiences. There is no right or wrong opinion.
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Old 2/3/16, 01:48 PM
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Wow, I was hoping that "car people" on this forum at least understood what the bailout was about. I guess I was wrong

The goal of the bailout was to avoid a Chapter 7 which would dissolve the company or at least force them to liquidate assets to pay off creditors and MASSIVE layoffs. Which would also mean that hundreds of Tier 1 suppliers and thousands of Tier 2 would also declare bankruptcy, and even more widespread layoffs.

Instead with the help of the "bailout" they could enter a Chapter 11 where they car re-org and propose a plan to pay off their debt or a portion of the debt and re-emerge from bankruptcy.

The point of the bailout was to keep the entire auto industry alive. From OEMs to Tier 1s, Tier 2s and so on... And to prevent hundreds of thousands of layoffs due to an auto industry crash.

Hope this helps clarify the magnitude of it all.

Imagine you owned a huge struggling corporation which hired thousands of people. You were at risk of closing your doors. And the government steps in and says they will help you restructure and keep you afloat so you don't have to add all your employees to the unemployment line. Why wouldn't you take that offer seriously?

Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 2/3/16 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 2/3/16, 02:38 PM
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Realistically/financially speaking,..............
Then, it would be either a 2016 GT350R, a 2016 Dodge Hellcat Challenger, a 2016 Roush Stage 3 with the phase 2 kit, or a 2016 Mustang GTPP and build it up. Not in that order though. That would be hard line-up for me to decide/chose from.

Last edited by Stage_3; 2/3/16 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 2/3/16, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Coyote5-0 View Post
By my own standards and the standards of popular automotive journals that give several GM vehicles very positive remarks and awards. For instance, the 2016 Camaro and 2014 CTS won Motor Trend's Car of The Year.

People that criticize GM and Chrysler for taking bail outs have no idea what would have happened to the industry if they hadn't. GM is a MUCH better company today because of it.
They put themselves in that position to begin with. They may be a better company today than they were, but at what cost to the taxpayers who have NO responsibility to them. Yeah, yeah, if they had gone under blah, blah, blah.

Chrysler got bailed out quite a few years back and then a second time more recently. Any guarantee that GM won't be back at the public trough again?
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Old 2/3/16, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by TripleBlack14 View Post
Motor Trend's COTY has everything to do with evaluating an automobile and nothing to do with a political position. I don't recall any automotive publication editorializing to any significant degree the merits or downsides of the government bailouts or "cash for clunkers". They largely remained neutral and reported on what they do best....as it should be. I don't read conservative political publications to get an opinion on an auto's performance.

My issue is not about quality. I'm sure the Camaro and CTS are well built cars which offer varying combinations of comfort, performance and reliability to those who choose to own one. I choose not to. So do many others.

I do take issue with the use of the word 'ignorant' when describing a person's opinion because it differs from someone else's. Our opinions can be based on facts, emotions, preferences or personal experiences. There is no right or wrong opinion.
It WAS ignorant because all he simply stated was "I would never buy anything from Government Motors." Why?? Because of their build quality? Because they have a woman GEO? Or because they took a government bailout? I wonder if he banks with any of the tons of banks that took the biggest government bailout ever and then proceeded to give their CEO's massive bonuses. Now THAT'S f*** up. The automotive bailout was microscopic in comparison and the government got a majority of their money back within a few years.
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Old 2/3/16, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Wow, I was hoping that "car people" on this forum at least understood what the bailout was about. I guess I was wrong

The goal of the bailout was to avoid a Chapter 7 which would dissolve the company or at least force them to liquidate assets to pay off creditors and MASSIVE layoffs. Which would also mean that hundreds of Tier 1 suppliers and thousands of Tier 2 would also declare bankruptcy, and even more widespread layoffs.

Instead with the help of the "bailout" they could enter a Chapter 11 where they car re-org and propose a plan to pay off their debt or a portion of the debt and re-emerge from bankruptcy.

The point of the bailout was to keep the entire auto industry alive. From OEMs to Tier 1s, Tier 2s and so on... And to prevent hundreds of thousands of layoffs due to an auto industry crash.

Hope this helps clarify the magnitude of it all.

Imagine you owned a huge struggling corporation which hired thousands of people. You were at risk of closing your doors. And the government steps in and says they will help you restructure and keep you afloat so you don't have to add all your employees to the unemployment line. Why wouldn't you take that offer seriously?
And how did Chevrolet say thank people soon after tax payers bailed their a$$es out. They were charging 5k over MSRP for the new 2010 Camaro. Nothing like a thank you buy bending the consumer over and hitting them dry.
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Old 2/3/16, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Stage_3 View Post
Realistically/financially speaking,..............
Then, it would be either a 2016 GT350R, a 2016 Dodge Hellcat Challenger, a 2016 Roush Stage 3 with the phase 2 kit, or a 2016 Mustang GTPP and build it up. Not in that order though. That would be hard line-up for me to decide/chose from.

I agree with you.

My son and I sat in the 2016 Camero. it is to tight. the interior looks like a elementary schools class put it together with cut and past. LOL The belt line is way to high. It feels way to small.

For the Money the Hellcat wins in all categories. If I wanted a car for road racing I would go with the GT350R hands down.
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Old 2/3/16, 03:58 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by dohc97 View Post
What would you get?

For me, there are only two options. A 2016 Mustang or a 2016 Camaro. I hate to say it, but the Camaro it is for me.

I bought my 2014 GT in May 2014. Like many in here, I waited for the reveal of the 2015 GT before making my decision.
Wait wait... loaded question. What's the price range?!?!?!?! You have to cap it.

I would like to say the GT350's, but I'm actually eyeing a BMW M or Audi S for something different. Wouldn't even mind a Hellcat...
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Old 2/3/16, 04:07 PM
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Styling is subjective, but I could live with the exterior of the new Camaro. The weight reduction and engine output increase are very nice. That said, I'd opt for a '16 Mustang because of the interior more than anything. You can see out and it looks better. A GT350 would be near perfection if it had a convertible option. I'd settle for a GT 'vert with the 670HP Ford racing blower on it. Too bad you can't get the mag ride suspension in the GT.

The S550 isn't perfect though. I was very disappointed in the weight gain. The weight loss of the Camaro should have the S550's seeing GM taillights for the next year or two at least.

Of course I'm not in the market for a car now. Trying to save up and build another garage to house our one car that sits outside and add a lift in the second bay.
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Old 2/3/16, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Joeywhat View Post
I really like the new 2 door civic. I'd probably grab one if I were keeping the Mustang, and especially if there's an Si version that still looks mostly the same.
Are you not keeping your mustang ?
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Old 2/3/16, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Jazzman442 View Post
I agree with you.
My son and I sat in the 2016 Camero. it is to tight. the interior looks like a elementary schools class put it together with cut and past. LOL The belt line is way to high. It feels way to small.
For the Money the Hellcat wins in all categories. If I wanted a car for road racing I would go with the GT350R hands down.
Great minds think alike!
Yeah,...never really liked the interior in the new style Camaro at all. UGLY!
lol

Originally Posted by FromZto5 View Post
Wait wait... loaded question. What's the price range?!?!?!?! You have to cap it.
I would like to say the GT350's, but I'm actually eyeing a BMW M or Audi S for something different. Wouldn't even mind a Hellcat...
That's why I posted it as a financially reasonable in my post.
Great minds think alike!
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Old 2/3/16, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by 2011 Kona Blue View Post
And how did Chevrolet say thank people soon after tax payers bailed their a$$es out. They were charging 5k over MSRP for the new 2010 Camaro. Nothing like a thank you buy bending the consumer over and hitting them dry.
Hmm, 2 things:

1) Ford is doing very well, and they are "thanking people" by charging how much over sticker for the GT 350 right now? Over $10k ... and you point is?

and

2) Especially when you're in bankruptcy your only worry is paying off your debt (or satisfying the terms of your bankruptcy). Which they did by making a cool car like the Camaro and selling it for as much as the people were willing to pay.

Done.

Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 2/3/16 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 2/3/16, 05:33 PM
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Obviously you're a tier one or two employee and a lil butt hurt by the opinions but that's ok we still love ya
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Old 2/3/16, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by tom281 View Post
Obviously you're a tier one or two employee and a lil butt hurt by the opinions but that's ok we still love ya
I am Tier 1, along with the rest of Michigan and Ohio and Indiana, Kentucky, Illinois and parts of Minnesota, California, Carolinas etc.

But more importantly, I am right in this debate. Otherwise prove me wrong.

And I love you guys too.

Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 2/3/16 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 2/3/16, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
1) Ford is doing very well, and they are "thanking people" by charging how much over sticker for the GT 350 right now? Over $10k ... and you point is?
I don't think that Ford is to blame for that. They have no control over what a dealership sells their GT350 cars at. Maybe I'm wrong here???
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Old 2/3/16, 05:52 PM
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Dealers are charging that, not Ford Motor Company. Just sayin'.
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Old 2/3/16, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Stage_3 View Post
I don't think that Ford is to blame for that. They have no control over what a dealership sells their GT350 cars at. Maybe I'm wrong here???
You're right. Just jiving along with Kona's response for apples to apples comparo.

Originally Posted by 2011 Kona Blue View Post
And how did Chevrolet say thank people soon after tax payers bailed their a$$es out. They were charging 5k over MSRP for the new 2010 Camaro. Nothing like a thank you buy bending the consumer over and hitting them dry.
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